Can FFL pin 16 round mag on new handgun?

[danw77 13]

Maybe this has been answered before, but I searched and couldn't find it. The handgun I'm interested in purchasing only comes from the factory with a 16 round magazine.  Is it possible to have it sent to an FFL and have them NJ legal before they transfer it to me? I'm not even certain if this is legal. If so, any recommendations on an FFL in northeastern NJ who can do this?

[djg0770 481]

Some FFL's will do this.

 

Call and ask BEFORE you order.

[henrym 19]

It is legal for them to do so, but some wont assume the liability.

[danw77 13]

Has anyone had this done?  If so, can you tell me who is able to do it and the approximate cost?  I'm in Essex County but am willing to drive a reasonable distance if that's my only option.

[blksheep 466]

What magazines?

[locochinoloco 0]

Steve from Monmouth Arms can pin the mags for you.

[DSD1026 48]

Steve from Monmouth Arms can pin the mags for you.

this..   he blocked my CZ 16-round mags prior to me taking possession..  its a pretty far drive from Essex county, but if you cant find anyone closer, he would be happy to do it.. 

[JT Custom Guns 959]

We also do mags BUT it depends upon the gun and style of mag.

 

Also - Some mfgs. will not ship Hi-cap mags to NJ even though it is legal

for dealer to have / possess them.

Most private sellers will, but still you need to ask BEFORE purchase!

 

If you need assistance - call me!

[remixer 1,645]

There has been much debate on "Pinning" a mag.  Whats permanent? 

 

Does permanent mean it can never ever under any circumstance be be reversed?  If so then its impossible to make anything permanent.  Depending on the skill level of the person trying to make something "un-permanent" has allot to do with it.  ( I know un-permanent is not a word but using it anyways)

 

If you Epoxy it , it can Un-bonded chemically at anytime . I have also seen magazines Glued/epoxied/Bonded that have had the bond completely fail after a few years of use.

 

If its pinned it can be removed with some damage to the magazine using tools, but in most cases the mag will remain functional.

 

I'v even seen factory mags that are limited and can be modified with the right tools and skill to accept higher capacity.  is that legal and permanent?  One example is the mp22 pistol 10 round CA version. It can be made to hold 12 rounds in about 10 seconds. the block is not even glued just sits in the magazine and can be removed without a tool.

 

That being said my opinion and the opinion of others is if it requires tools and labor to remove the capacity limit it would be legal Then again some others will disagree and since its one of those "grey" areas i don't think anyone knows for sure.

 

Use the logic the ATF uses in regards to Pinning a muzzle break on a barrel to maintain the 16" length They say welding a pin is acceptable and they consider that permanent. 

 

I don't know about you guys but i have swapped out (made un-permanent) a pined and welded muzzle brake with out destroying the brake.

 

I would like others to throw there 2 cents in,  as a good discussion on this would be nice... Don't get nasty if you disagree as i love everyone

[vladtepes 1,060]

unfortunately in NJ there is no legal standard for modifying magazines which means EVERY mag that is modded is a roll of the dice....

 

the only one that would be %100 is if the body of the mag as actually cut down... or if you cut the tabs off of the bottom and riveted in some type of bottom.. its not reversible because the tabs are gone.. 

[remixer 1,645]

As with all interpretation of laws....... YMMV.......

 

I tend to err on the side of caution.............especially in this climate, in this state.  Where precedent case judgements in NJ ( i don't have it handy ) but, essentially state that you engage in firearms at your own peril.... my interpretation guilty until proven innocent.

To that end as far as magazines go.....I have seen the gambit....  I saw a PINNED 30 round AK mag come in the shop and we would not release it....  drill out the pin and voila 30 round mag....  You feel like explaining to the DA that it was 'pinned' and only 15 rounds? 

 

*MY* interpretation of PERMANENT is that in order to reverse the modification the magazine body would have to be rendered inoperable to get it back to it's factory design capacity..THAT is a permanent modification and THAT keeps customers and people out of trouble...

 

If you feel that slipping a pin in a mag body, or a block etc is permanent and can only be reversed by using tools,  than I think if you do that for your clients, you are doing them a disservice and placing them in jeopardy...again in MY opinion...YMMV... 

 

Again it is interpretation, but in order to prove that you followed the law....I feel that you need to go the extra step.....why take a chance......otherwise you may find yourself trying to explain it to a DA who would love nothing more than to make an example of you...

 

To your point about the muzzle brakes...........that is a 'clearly' defined set of parameters, codified, whereby it give options that are considered, as law what is permanent and what is not; to that end I do believe you have some very good footing should you run into an overzealous DA......again my opinion and mine only

 

 

I've inserted the definition of permanent from Websters :   continuing or enduring without fundamental or marked change :

 

Hence my OPINION about the mag body destruction as part of reversing a modification etc.....

 

So your thoughts are if the body can hold more then 15 rounds its illegal?  If a factory magazine had a body that held more then 15 and was only limited by for example a longer follower that can be cut down its illegal?

 

NJ does not specify threaded barrel being considered non threaded by a pinned and welded brake and this is why we refer back to the ATF regulations. BUT at the end of the day technically being NJ that can also be challenged by our wonderful lawmakers.

 

That being said. If you can get the factory 15 round mag its always best. If not i would agree its a roll of the dice and have to use the best possible methods.

[remixer 1,645]

unfortunately in NJ there is no legal standard for modifying magazines which means EVERY mag that is modded is a roll of the dice....

 

the only one that would be %100 is if the body of the mag as actually cut down... or if you cut the tabs off of the bottom and riveted in some type of bottom.. its not reversible because the tabs are gone.. 

 

I would agree with you on that.

[vladtepes 1,060]

So your thoughts are if the body can hold more then 15 rounds its illegal?  If a factory magazine had a body that held more then 15 and was only limited by for example a longer follower that can be cut down its illegal?

 

NJ does not specify threaded barrel being considered non threaded by a pinned and welded brake and this is why we refer back to the ATF regulations. BUT at the end of the day technically being NJ that can also be challenged by our wonderful lawmakers.

 

That being said. If you can get the factory 15 round mag its always best. If not i would agree its a roll of the dice.

 

 

the reason that threaded barrel is different is because there is an ATF standard for it that states if a muzzle device is attached in such a way than it is to be part of the barrel.... so once that happens it is no longer a brake.. or a threaded barrel.. it is one solid barrel.. 

[remixer 1,645]

the reason that threaded barrel is different is because there is an ATF standard for it that states if a muzzle device is attached in such a way than it is to be part of the barrel.... so once that happens it is no longer a brake.. or a threaded barrel.. it is one solid barrel.. 

 

being from NJ one can only hope

[MidwestPX 172]

Guidance I have received from NJSP regarding modified mags is the modification should a) involve epoxy/adhesive and b) reversal should damage/destroy the magazine.  I don't necessarily agree with the first stipulation because after three (four?) years of making modified magazines, there's only one adhesive on the market that I've found that I can't defeat easily (and I've tested a ton of different adhesives and epoxies) so it seems like a pointless parameter.  Otherwise, I would have dropped the use of that very specific adhesive that's still in use with our PMAGs and stuck with just the ultrasonic welder that is now in use. 

 

The problem with the law as it is written is that it is nebulous when it comes to defining permanence and no one of authority is willing to give concrete examples of what satisfies the requirement.  This is why I tend to be very conservative in the approach to modifying magazines.  The last thing I want is for someone like a DA to show someone else, like a jury, how easy it is to reverse the modification.  The scenario that runs through my head is a DA in a court room with a magazine and just a few seconds, with or without tools, undoing a magazine in front of a jury and saying, "With how little that took and how quickly it was done, that's not permanent."

 

In my opinion (which with a dollar will get you a cup of coffee so take it for what it's worth), a pin or rivet alone is not enough to satisfy NJ law.  It's enough for California (my opinion but in practice, my CA mags get modified the same way as NJ) but not for NJ.  It's why I never released a rivet-only magazine for NJ.  I've seen some with a roll pin running through the side of the body.  Also not NJ legal, IMO.  I've seen unsealed baseplates with a thin plastic sheet jammed in the back of the magazine which I also wouldn't consider legal. 

[remixer 1,645]

Agreed it is a roll of the dice and I err on the side of uber caution...  some are more tolerant to risk than I am......  as an example....  I was in the bahamas on vacation at atlantis...  I gambled $20.00 in a whole week and I was pissed off I lost that... 

 

LOL

 

[vladtepes 1,060]

The ultimate irony is a 15round 40 cal glock mag can hold and feed more than 15 9mm rounds... And is therefore by definition illegal

[PK90 3,573]

And the debate continues

 

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[mikeyjones 88]

And the debate continues

 

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Aren't you happy you don't have to deal with this anymore?