nj ccw question

[mipafox 438]

Enough talk.

 

You don't even have a plan? Nothing's worked? You're asking for ideas?

 

Hey, I think everybody should participate in your efforts, but I don't think that should make people wait around.

 

Obama appointed 40 federal judges on the day the Senate changed the rules for confirming appointments. We have never been stronger than we are today, EVER, and have never been weaker than we will be tomorrow.

 

There is no waiting.

[Newtonian 453]

Great to see that NJ2AS is giving this issue serious consideration! I would love to make it to this meeting, but it's going to be rough on a work night. (FWIW, I've been a member for a couple of years, but as noted, I'm not on Facebook, so I remain somewhat in the dark on these matters.)

 

Thanks for joining in here Frank.

Is facebook the only way NJ2AS publicizes its events? If so they're losing a lot of potential interest. 

[ogfarmer 138]

http://www.nj2as.com/EVENTS

https://twitter.com/nj2as

I also get emails from them,

[Old Glock guy 1,127]

Anybody have any intel from tonight's NJ2AS meeting?

[maintenanceguy 510]

Anybody have any intel from tonight's NJ2AS meeting?

focus for 2014 is going to be:

1. continue with operation compliance
2. start a similar program to operation compliance using similar tactics to bring FID and P2P approval within the statutory 30 days.
3. carry is sort of on the back burner.  But...

 

A lot of good discussion.  Everyone wants ccw!  The word is...if you want to apply - go ahead, it won't hurt anything but planning is needed after tonight's meeting before there is a big push to do so.   We were assured that ccw is not off the table.    There was a lot of discussion about what would be step 2 if we all apply.  Some good ideas came up.  The one that got applause was to get denied just to show that NJ is denying.  And then use these denials to frame the message in such a way that NJ is denying the vulnerable among us the right to self protection and is violating civil rights of protected classes.  It was much more eloquent than I can say it.  Even Frank was impressed with the suggestion and I'm hopeful this will be a go.  I think we have a good reason and we understand a little better what can be done with a thousand denials.  Wait and see what Frank has to say.

 

If you want to see the sort of thing being discussed, check out Project Veritas if you aren't familiar with their work.  One of the people from this organization was there and gave a rousing impromptu speech about the process they would use to turn a thousand denials for our benefit.   Worth the long drive.  I think I'll find a way to make all of the meetings even if it means 3 hours on the road once in a while.

 

I don't know what to expect next.  A lot of the thoughts are only a couple of hours old and I know the NJ2AS leadership has a lot to talk about now. 

[Norseman 2]

Just finished reading this entire thread. I'm gonna join and apply for ccw too.

I don't count that many of us saying we're gonna do it though.

 

 

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[Luso 6]

Anyone that has read this thread and believes it is the right course of action, or anyone that attended tonight's meeting and believes in this mission, please tell your friends and the leadership of any organization you belong to, not just NJ2AS, that this matters to you. Tell them you don't want to stand by waiting around for God-send court decisions and politicians, that you want to be proactive and not reactive.

 

Some people seem to think we have to wait for some perfect storm to happen. They sit there petrified and painfully analyzing every potential negative outcome as an excuse for inaction like wusses. Before you know it, in 2 months we will be facing another magazine restriction bill, and we will once again be scrambling on permanent defense. That is the losing proposition.

 

Let's get on offense: tell them that narrative and consequences is all that matters, tell them you are tired of having debates, and protests, and discussions, and meetings. They get us nothing. Tell them you want and demand results.

 

Everything else is just talk, and talk is cheap. We all know the system is unfair and we aren't happy with it. Stop discussing how pissed off you are and feeling cool about having intellectual debates on the best course of action.

 

Just destroy their narrative. Consequence is everything, and we will win

[gleninjersey 2,141]

While I totally disagree with NJ's position that one requires an immediate threat in order to exercise the right to carry a concealed handgun I think it would be beneficial to list some reasonable, intelligent reasons why one would want to carry. This could also help others who may read this thread and think that they don't have or know of any reason why they would want to carry a handgun with them. Here is one ideabthat I cam think of why one would want to exercise their right to carry a handgun:

 

Has their been an increase in drug use, assualts, home invasions,, robberies, car jackings, rapes or other identifiable and quantifable crimes occuring in your area. You feel you shouldb have the right to have the means to be proactive and to be able to defend yourself to ward off the increasing probabilty that you could be a victim of a crime and not wait to be a victim.

 

Please share your ideas as well.

[Luso 6]

glenn, what I am telling you is none of that matters. And that's the problem.

 

Everyone wants to slow this down and have an intellectual debate about it. You can get the most eloquent speech writer to craft for you the most meticulous and beautiful reasoning for you to put on your application. You are still going to get rejected. Don't you think if beautiful words and rhetoric worked, that we would have just passed legislation on this already? that 20 of the bills they rammed through when 1000 people showed up to testify would have possibly gone the other way? Absolutely not, the state does not care about what you have to say.

 

We don't need a college lecture on our applications. we need rejections. Until we get tons of rejections, the narrative never changes. Every second we waste debating ONE ANOTHER on what to write, is another second we aren't spending CHANGING THE NARRATIVE.

 

You just need to take away the argument from the state. Save the suspense, you WILL get rejected no matter what you write. but that's what you want

[steamer966 0]

Agreed! The time for debate is over! Go on the offensive! If you apply for CCW today or in a month. If everything you encounter is documented and compiled, it will change the narrative. Civil rights/discrimination will be in the forefront.

[ogfarmer 138]

Here is one case of Justifiable need being denied that's going on now. Scroll to his story on bottom http://www.gofundme.com/Fighting-for-NJ-CCW

[Luso 6]

the problem is we have one or two people doing it. Can you imagine if we had 1000? You would create a crisis for the state of NJ.

 

They would look like the biggest tyrants and you would garner national attention, that the state is systematically discriminating against it's citizens, and granting rights exclusively to politically connected politicians, and rich people who can afford a lawsuit.

 

That's a losing narrative for the state.

[Se9 0]

And with getting national attention comes donations for any organization that is trying to defend the 2a rights

[louu 399]

Do you have to have a FID or P2P to apply for CCW?

Reason I'm asking is I can get my mom and my aunt to apply for CCW. They have never owned a firearm and neither has applied for FID or P2P.

 

I am going to apply for CCW in a few months after I get my Utah.

[BD104X 1]

What you put for justifiable need doesn't matter - it's going to get rejected anyway, but those rejections will hopefully allow us to take the next step. You could write "because I would feel safer" or "I deposit $1000000000.00 a day" or just recite the 2nd amendment verbatim - IT DOESENT MATTER, IT WILL BE REJECTED. We know & expect this, but the point is to make it impossible for the attorney general to continue to claim that %96 are approved.

[Norseman 2]

How amazingly awesome would it be if the majority of us are approved and the state keeps the percentage of denials about where it is now!?!?

 

 

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[BD104X 1]

How amazingly awesome would it be if the majority of us are approved and the state keeps the percentage of denials about where it is now!?!?

 

 

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I'm curious to see if one or two defy the odds and actually get approved!

[Fawkesguy 57]

Isn't there a training requirement?  If so, I can't imagine many people taking the time and spending the money for certification knowing they will be rejected anyway.

[maintenanceguy 510]

There is a training requirement and the rules are a little fuzzy.  The statute lists 4 ways to qualify and two of those ways make it sound like NRA basic pistol or beginner pistol should be enough.  Others who claim to have the real info say you have to shoot the NJSP course of fire with 80% hit rate.  

 

I was against doing this now but after last night's meeting, I see the light.  We need to force NJ to deny us before we can claim that they will deny us.  Once we are denied, we push the civil rights issue - hopefully with some disadvanged citizens who are media sympathetic - at least to the national media where ccw is a normal part of life.   If the national news features NJ denying citizens their rights; if the NRA sees us acting and decides to put resources into
NJ, if we can put a camera in the face of Christie, Sweeney, Weinberg and demand an answer as to why they are denying the inner city mother the right to protect her children in the neighborhood they have failed to make safe.  

 

This was not my idea but was explained brilliantly by Dan at last night's meeting.

 

Someone (Hopefully NJ2AS) needs to set the schedule which needs to include timeline for organizing the other 2A groups in NJ,  for everyone to meet the qualifying requirement, and finally apply at the same time.  We then use the most egregious denials and push the message the NJ is violating rights.  Christie is violating rights, Sweeney is violating rights, Weinberg is violating rights - the rights of the most vulnerable in our society who must live in the cities that the same people have failed to make safe.

[Se9 0]

We would need to get a qualifying shoot going and fill out paper work to submit

This will take time and with the holidays upon us it will not happen but we should start breaking the state into sections so we can meet some where and discuss a place to qualify and a time

Then all should submit paperwork accordingly

This is a open forum and any one can read posts

Things should've kept as quiet as possible till we are ready

[ryan_j 0]

Do you have to have a FID or P2P to apply for CCW?

Reason I'm asking is I can get my mom and my aunt to apply for CCW. They have never owned a firearm and neither has applied for FID or P2P.

 

I am going to apply for CCW in a few months after I get my Utah.

 

You don't need a FID or PtP although it may help. 

 

You do need a gun to qualify though.

[ryan_j 0]

Isn't there a training requirement?  If so, I can't imagine many people taking the time and spending the money for certification knowing they will be rejected anyway.

 

NRA basic pistol should do it, along with the qualification. Thing is, they don't really issue any permits so no one knows!!!

 

That's the other thing, by doing this exercise we show the cracks in the system, how it is a DE-FACTO BAN on possession outside the home, which as the 7th circuit ruled is not in line with the Heller decision. 

 

As a bonus if you do NRA Basic you can apply for other permits like Florida or even Connecticut (which specifically requires NRA basic with live fire).

[Norseman 2]

What about seeing if we get some kind of group discounts at places like GFH ...I mean if we can generate a flood of people coming in for training for the purpose of applying for ccw they will make a mint. Surely they wouldn't mind giving us some deep discounts - especially considering the total upside for them to grow their business if this thing snowballs and suddenly thousands of people are coming through their doors.

 

 

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[45Doll 5,877]

Nowhere on the application (642) is there any mention of training, or certification, or any field on the form to fill in on that subject. The only thing you need to supply besides the form is the letter of need.

 

So at the time of application there is no need to do anything about qualification until you're at least in front of the judge. Which none of us will be.

 

I'll have more to say later. But I'm really trying to think this through. To get to a real point of meaningful action. NOT to just ruminate more on the subject.

 

I'm inclined to agree with 'ramming speed'.

[Norseman 2]

I'm in. When we have a plan and guys are ready to move, I'll be right there too. Someday I'd like to get to tell my grandson about how we peacefully and legally took back our 2nd amendment in this state.

 

 

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[Se9 0]

If Christie has any hopes of running for federal office this may be our only time to do this

Just think how it would look to the rest of the country if other high ranking congressman back this and he does not

[45Doll 5,877]

Let me amplify my previous post, briefly.

 

I (and anyone else under the jurisdiction of the NJSP and not a local police department) would apply for CCW in the following way:

 

1. Download and fill in form 642.

2. Provide the three required references and signatures.

3. Have it notarized.

4. Send it, in triplicate and with $20, to the Trenton Firearms Investigation Unit.

 

I have now applied for CCW.

 

Regarding the letter of need:

 

My current opinion is that the NJ requirements for 'justifiable need' should be completely ignored. The letter of need should (I think) identify specific legal and constitutional reasons why my CCW should be issued. Ideally the letter's reasoning would be based on principles of settled law in favor of CCW. (And I'm not sure how that should be constructed.) All applicants should probably have the same letter of need. So when NJ rejects all the applications requesting CCW on the basis of settled law, it would be obvious what the state is doing.

 

And to be effective, I would think we'd need at least 1,000 committed applicants.

 

Still thinking.

[1LtCAP 4,264]

And with getting national attention comes donations for any organization that is trying to defend the 2a rights

how do we get national attention though, once a thousand of us have been refused? how do we force the courts to see this?

[louu 399]

how do we get national attention though, once a thousand of us have been refused? how do we force the courts to see this?

 

 

From what I understand Project Veritas will have that part covered. (but then what?)

[Se9 0]

Outside pressure to force Christie to take action if he is seeking higher office of any kind this kind of attention will not resonate well in an election year mid term or presidential

 

Justifiable need should state the safe and security and well being of myself and family

We should not be faced with unreasonable laws just because a few want to control us