NJ Judge says we have the right to use handguns outside the home for self defense (RPO permits for arson investigators)

[mipafox 438]

 

The Yamato Kuro neko?

If it offends you I can change it.

 

 

Yeah, that's the one. Yamamoto.

 

It doesn't offend me I'll be OK.

[gleninjersey 2,141]

The Yamato Kuro neko?

If it offends you I can change it.

 

The big ass burger offends me....making me hungry.  Can you change it please. 

[mipafox 438]

Cat Burger. That should do it

[Newtonian 453]

The REAL story here is that Gov. Christie's attorney general DECLINED to defend NJ gun laws in this court case:

 

http://goo.gl/x0wDVI

 

Needless to say, the democrats are outraged.

 

This is HUGE, folks. As I've posted several times in these forums, Christie is going to have to do some soul-searching on guns if he wants any chance of winning the Republican presidential nomination. Iowa and New Hampshire, where the first two primaries are held, are both shall-issue states. Christie's opponents will not waste time pointing out New Jersey's status as the least gun-friendly state in the Union. 

 

Now that he's a lame duck, and desirous of bigger and better things, our governor no longer needs to appeal to paranoid NJ voters. 

 

 

[bzer1 15]

CCW is dead in NJ.  I don't think even a SCOTUS ruling would help us in NJ.  Short of a SCOTUS decision to prohibit "may issue" and force all States to be "shall issue" after rigid training requirements, which will never happen. 

This. The only way the get CCW here is to eliminate those who use the justifiable need BS to deny that they are outright refusing people the right to self protection. By eliminate them, I mean to make them unemployed. Aside from a 180 degree flip in political leanings in Trenton, there is no hope for CCW. As soon as Christie is out of the way, you can bet we will see all those vetoed bills return with a vengeance, and next time they will get every one of them. They were more than willing to break the law to get them through the senate, and will not be denied by process for much longer. It's just a matter of time.

[leahcim 680]

 

CCW is dead in NJ.  I don't think even a SCOTUS ruling would help us in NJ.  Short of a SCOTUS decision to prohibit "may issue" and force all States to be "shall issue" after rigid training requirements, which will never happen. 

 

If you choose to look at it that way, but I see it as glass .001% full

This actually gives me more hope than I had before--at least it is a crack in the door.  I mean if there are judges out there who will recognize the right to self-defense, and accept a CCW right (with some burdens of training, background check, etc.) AND understand or can be convinced the current regime is a de facto BAN.  They would logically have to make some allowance.

Nappen has a case before NJ Supreme court (Pantano) which could help.

Another possibility is if the CCW reciprocity law gets passed (obviously under the next non-Democrat administration), that would likely force NJ  to do something regarding CCW.

[leahcim 680]

This. The only way the get CCW here is to eliminate those who use the justifiable need BS to deny that they are outright refusing people the right to self protection. By eliminate them, I mean to make them unemployed. Aside from a 180 degree flip in political leanings in Trenton, there is no hope for CCW. As soon as Christie is out of the way, you can bet we will see all those vetoed bills return with a vengeance, and next time they will get every one of them. They were more than willing to break the law to get them through the senate, and will not be denied by process for much longer. It's just a matter of time.

Good point--we are screwed if Christie is replaced by almost any Democrat.

[njJoniGuy 2,133]

A question for the attorneys among you:

Could Christie, while he is the Guv, define (in our favor) "Justifiable Need" by Executive Action alone?

 

If so, we need to make it know to him that unless that happens, we are prepared to create a sh*tstorm of badmouthing and ill will towards him in New Hampshire and Iowa before their primaries. Does he want GOP frontrunner status enough to relieve us of the 'JN' burden we now suffer?

 

I'm prepared to drive to NH and go door to door spreading the word about him for weeks prior to their primary if we are left defenseless and he's trying to get to 1600 PA Ave.

[RS1200XL 4]

I'm prepared to drive to NH and go door to door spreading the word about him for weeks prior to their primary if we are left defenseless and he's trying to get to 1600 PA Ave.

 

Pro-Gun NH(NRA affiliate) already said they were watching him over the summer.  New Hampshire LOVES their guns and I would be surprised if Old Chris Cringle will get their nod.

[raz-0 1,259]

Seems that a large part of the State's reasoning for their "Justifiable Need" is that NJ is so densely populated and if concealed carry were allowed it would result in accidents due to improper handeling/training if handguns were allowed outstide the home.

 

One way to nullify that is to compare NJ's population density to other areas that allow conceal carry with similiar populations densities and correlate which have a higher or lower incident of violence/crime. I would hope that the statistics show that states that allow it's citizens the capablity to defend themselves would have lower incidentns of violence/crime.

 

Another way to address this is to show that yes, the State is very densely populated which means that there will be more incidents of random acts of violence which law abiding citizens should have the right to defend themselves against. And on page 61 the ruling says the the "justifiable need" requirement burdens law-abiding citizens:

 

"There is no question that New Jersey's "justifiable need" requirement burdens a law-abiding, responsible and adequately trained person's right to carry a handgun in the event a need to use it in lawful defense arises."

 

So logic dicatates that a higher population density would increase the chances law abiding citizens being victimized......but let's further burden them. That makes no sense what so ever.

 

I should have never of read the ruling because the illogic thinking and condescending regard our lawmakers has for it's citizens is pretty disgusting. Basically the ruling says we are too stupid to properly handle handguns and we would just end up accidently shooting people. Thank God nobody in this State gets injured in automobile accidents......(dripping sarcasm).

I crunched the numbers as much as I could. The reality is that you can find higher and lower density areas that are ban areas and carry areas, and they are all over the place in terms of firearm homicides and injuries. Nj happens to be in the middle-ish area of the scatter plot. You can't do the real math without more data. For the state, county, and some times the city level you can get fatality, injury, and crime stats, but not stats on the per capita rate of permit holders.

 

 

 

[ryan_j 0]

A question for the attorneys among you:

Could Christie, while he is the Guv, define (in our favor) "Justifiable Need" by Executive Action alone?

 

If so, we need to make it know to him that unless that happens, we are prepared to create a sh*tstorm of badmouthing and ill will towards him in New Hampshire and Iowa before their primaries. Does he want GOP frontrunner status enough to relieve us of the 'JN' burden we now suffer?

 

I'm prepared to drive to NH and go door to door spreading the word about him for weeks prior to their primary if we are left defenseless and he's trying to get to 1600 PA Ave.

 

Some are saying he can direct the AG to define justifiable need simply as self defense. 

[mipafox 438]

 

The REAL story here is that Gov. Christie's attorney general DECLINED to defend NJ gun laws in this court case:

 

http://goo.gl/x0wDVI

 

Needless to say, the democrats are outraged.

 

This is HUGE, folks. As I've posted several times in these forums, Christie is going to have to do some soul-searching on guns if he wants any chance of winning the Republican presidential nomination. Iowa and New Hampshire, where the first two primaries are held, are both shall-issue states. Christie's opponents will not waste time pointing out New Jersey's status as the least gun-friendly state in the Union. 

 

Now that he's a lame duck, and desirous of bigger and better things, our governor no longer needs to appeal to paranoid NJ voters. 

Then you better exploit it now while he's in jersey.

 

If he becomes president, he'll show his true stripes real quick. Remember - he's not afraid to compromise, and reaches across the aisle. He has no principles, he's just a big dumb douche that tries to push people around for personal satisfaction and does whatever he thinks is politically expedient and beneficial to him. And he's made it clear he is not a fan of civilian gun ownership.

 

So, if you think his aspirations give you an opening, exploit it now because it is closing fast.

[mipafox 438]

 

I crunched the numbers as much as I could. The reality is that you can find higher and lower density areas that are ban areas and carry areas, and they are all over the place in terms of firearm homicides and injuries. Nj happens to be in the middle-ish area of the scatter plot. You can't do the real math without more data. For the state, county, and some times the city level you can get fatality, injury, and crime stats, but not stats on the per capita rate of permit holders.

A handgun doesn't shoot 30 miles, it's usually 30 yards tops. ESPECIALLY in an area of high population density, which suggests buildings everywhere.

 

There is no locality in NJ that is any different than 100 localities where people carry and it causes zero problems. Matter of fact, there is no place in the US where legal carry causes any problems.

 

Population density is meaningless. It doesn't mean anything. Except that it is a useful excuse to bs people. There are literally tens of thousands of places in the US where you can find 100 people within 30 yards during the course of a day. How about a grocery store?

 

Trying to tease data for increased or decreased crime rates is meaningless. There are two points that cannot be refuted:

 

- Legal firearm carriers are less likely to commit crimes or murders than ANYONE.

 

- There are tens of thousands of examples of areas with high local population density where people carry and there isn't a single data point among them that suggests it's a problem.

[Newtonian 453]

 

Then you better exploit it now while he's in jersey.

 

If he becomes president, he'll show his true stripes real quick. Remember - he's not afraid to compromise, and reaches across the aisle. He has no principles, he's just a big dumb douche that tries to push people around for personal satisfaction and does whatever he thinks is politically expedient and beneficial to him. And he's made it clear he is not a fan of civilian gun ownership.

 

So, if you think his aspirations give you an opening, exploit it now because it is closing fast.

I don't usually whine about not getting attention on here, but it's astounding that you, Phosgene, are the only person who thinks this is significant. I've expressed the idea of "divine intervention" numerous times, both in this forum and to individuals active in NJ gun rights. 

 

To me, the NJ AG or CC himself would have to advocate for gun rights, within some legal setting, or we will never get them. That is why Christie refusing to defend our gun laws was so significant. But we somehow must convince him that merely not defending our laws is not the same as advocating for fairness and sanity.

 

Because, unfortunately, the sun will turn to a cold hard cinder before 2nd Amendment or "natural rights" arguments -- or for that matter facts: the experience of 47 other states -- will convince the spiteful, childish, vindictive ignoramuses in our state assembly of anything. NJ is the perfect example of a jurisdiction where half the people work for a living, and the other half vote for a living. Actually it might be closer to 40%-60%. 

[Old Glock guy 1,127]

For all the reasons you guys cite, there will never be a better time than right now to make a concerted effort to get the CCW laws changed.  IANAL, but it seems that the AG or governor could issue an executive order to redefine "justifiable need" if we scream loudly enough.

[mipafox 438]

For all the reasons you guys cite, there will never be a better time than right now to make a concerted effort to get the CCW laws changed.  IANAL, but it seems that the AG or governor could issue an executive order to redefine "justifiable need" if we scream loudly enough.

I really agree. We are coming off of a long string of victories. Christie is vulnerable on this and the next NJ governor will probably be happy with NJ gun laws resembling those of North Korea. In another year when Obama is done stacking a thousand federal justices through the Nuclear Option we probably won't be able to use the courts for 20 years. We have never been so strong in Jersey and we have never been as weak as we likely will be soon.

[JohnnyB 4,326]

Some are saying he can direct the AG to define justifiable need simply as self defense. 

If redefining JN is that simple and would give Christie a boost in the 47 free states. We need to make a concerted effort along with the NRA, NJ2AS and all other pro 2A groups to make this known to him

and force his hand! How well can he do in a Presidential Election having been the Governor of the state with the worst anti 2A laws in the nation??? If he can change the JN clause, he can use that fact on

the stump to garner more free state Republican and independent voters,

 

If now is indeed our best time to act then we must do so NOW!  Let's collectively put all our efforts on Christie. He has ambition and he can't win with his current record in the worst 2A state in the nation.

Voters who live in the 47 free states will never vote for him for fear of him taking away all states 2A rights and turning the U.S.A. into a giant PRNJ!

 

My tin foil hat just fell off. What the hell was I saying??? I don't remember now! :unknw:

[JohnnyB 4,326]

 

Then you better exploit it now while he's in jersey.

 

If he becomes president, he'll show his true stripes real quick. Remember - he's not afraid to compromise, and reaches across the aisle. He has no principles, he's just a big dumb douche that tries to push people around for personal satisfaction and does whatever he thinks is politically expedient and beneficial to him. And he's made it clear he is not a fan of civilian gun ownership.

 

So, if you think his aspirations give you an opening, exploit it now because it is closing fast.

I found my hat!  Mipafox is right and we need to act now. Let's come up with some ideas on how proceed on a unified front!

[JohnnyB 4,326]

For all the reasons you guys cite, there will never be a better time than right now to make a concerted effort to get the CCW laws changed.  IANAL, but it seems that the AG or governor could issue an executive order to redefine "justifiable need" if we scream loudly enough.

Let's Roll!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Mods, I think this subject is important and should NOT end up in the Litterbox.

[Oakridgefirearms 224]

Some are saying he can direct the AG to define justifiable need simply as self defense. 

That's fine and great for getting the PD's to sign off on them, but a Superior Court judge still needs to sign the permit for it to be valid. Last I checked, a judge doesn't have any obligation to adhere to anything the AG says.

[JohnnyB 4,326]

That's fine and great for getting the PD's to sign off on them, but a Superior Court judge still needs to sign the permit for it to be valid. Last I checked, a judge doesn't have any obligation to adhere to anything the AG says.

If justifiable need is redefined and the PD's approve them, the Superior Court judge would surely be overwhelmed with LAWFUL applications and if he denied them without just cause, his decisions would most certainly be challenged by a higher court for not following NJ law and clearly violating our Constitutional right to defend ourselves under the 2nd Amendment and NJ statute.

 

We need clarification from someone like Evan Nappen to see if this could work.

[71ragtopgoat 23]

 

Then you better exploit it now while he's in jersey.

 

If he becomes president, he'll show his true stripes real quick. Remember - he's not afraid to compromise, and reaches across the aisle. He has no principles, he's just a big dumb douche that tries to push people around for personal satisfaction and does whatever he thinks is politically expedient and beneficial to him. And he's made it clear he is not a fan of civilian gun ownership.

 

So, if you think his aspirations give you an opening, exploit it now because it is closing fast.

I think you are 100% correct. He is another Bloomberg.

[quikz 34]

"The carry permit law is distinct from laws that provide enhanced punishment for persons who commit crimes with guns or other deadly weapons, which are also part of the careful grid. Id. at 568-69. As the discussion that follows demonstrates, the carry permit law is one of the regulatory provisions of the firearms laws designed to protect the public before any harm is caused. The regulatory provisions address the danger of serious injury inherent in the ownership and carrying of firearms."

 

In other words, ascribing to NJ's Gospel of 'Public Safety'. We must PRE-EMPT any potential for firearms damage to maintain Utopia. And in keeping alive this "careful grid" aka draconian anti-Constitutional boundaries in and 'unique' to NJ. Therefore the distinction is between the state and its reps, like cops and such, vs. NJ citizens (which are screwed by the pure fiat of the courts) so NJ LE apparently never does wrong with their guns. I can point to several cases where they have and recent.

 

However, they do not fall under the pre-emption category.

 

Classic 'statist' approach to Judicial 'reasoning' in NJ. Revealing a fear and loathing of just the 'Potential' alone. If its no big deal, then its no big deal. But im afraid NJ is beyond paranoid atbthis point...

[galapoola 102]

That's fine and great for getting the PD's to sign off on them, but a Superior Court judge still needs to sign the permit for it to be valid. Last I checked, a judge doesn't have any obligation to adhere to anything the AG says.

+1 that, the issuing authority in NJ is the judiciary. Last I checked there is still separation of powers between the three branches but then again this is NJ. FYI, NJ's legal scheme to empower the judiciary to perform an executive action was a point made in the first brief at the federal level when our civil rights law suit was first heard.

[dman2112 6]

Never going to happen

[Newtonian 453]

Still, it blows my mind that not one single judge, anywhere in this state, will issue a permit. I understand we're a left-leaning state, but aren't there some conservative counties? Judges appointed by Republicans? Judges who do their homework?

[Oakridgefirearms 224]

There's usually only one judge in each county assigned to handle carry permits and dealer licenses. I would imagine they tend to assign judges who aren't going issue carry permits lightly.

[Respect2A 0]

Never going to happen

Bingo

[ryan_j 0]

I realize you guys get a hard on and get to beat your chest by saying "never going to happen" but is negativity really productive? 

[BD104X 1]

I realize you guys get a hard on and get to beat your chest by saying "never going to happen" but is negativity really productive?

Now THERES a 'bingo'.