Aim Surplus suspend's all AR Lower shipments to NJ

[mikka1 2]

This whole situation just makes my brain explode. "It is legal, we know that it is legal, but we will still not sell item X to you, because we are afraid that if we do that, we might be sued by YYY despite the fact that it was perfectly legal". F****g amazing. We also know it's legal for businesses to basically refuse goods or services to anyone they don't like somehow, _unless_ there is an element of discrimination in it (at least I believe so, but IANAL). Why don't NJ residents try to sue those stores refusing to sell items to us despite them being perfectly legal and compliant both to Federal and State regulations for discriminative policy based on current residence? I would also try to add the attempt of interfering with executing the 2nd amendment rights to the lawsuit... Is it a complete BS? Most likely yes. But as long as they are afraid of State suing them for BS which is legal, why don't make them afraid of State residents for doing exactly the same?

 

I know this might sound stupid, but in the end of the day NJ is really a *home* for many people here who, despite all talks, will probably never stand up and escape somewhere. There are lots of stupid state-level regulations on the shelves, but at least they are legitimately passed, they are on paper and one can prepare and be ready for them. Why allow some businesses to randomly make up other arbitrary "NJ-specific regulations" that are *stricter* than the one that exist in reality and ultimately get away with it? :-)

 

(Sorry for after-midnight BS thoughts... :-) )

[TooBigToFit 2]

This whole situation just makes my brain explode. "It is legal, we know that it is legal, but we will still not sell item X to you, because we are afraid that if we do that, we might be sued by YYY despite the fact that it was perfectly legal". F****g amazing. We also know it's legal for businesses to basically refuse goods or services to anyone they don't like somehow, _unless_ there is an element of discrimination in it (at least I believe so, but IANAL). Why don't NJ residents try to sue those stores refusing to sell items to us despite them being perfectly legal and compliant both to Federal and State regulations for discriminative policy based on current residence? I would also try to add the attempt of interfering with executing the 2nd amendment rights to the lawsuit... Is it a complete BS? Most likely yes. But as long as they are afraid of State suing them for BS which is legal, why don't make them afraid of State residents for doing exactly the same?

 

I know this might sound stupid, but in the end of the day NJ is really a *home* for many people here who, despite all talks, will probably never stand up and escape somewhere. There are lots of stupid state-level regulations on the shelves, but at least they are legitimately passed, they are on paper and one can prepare and be ready for them. Why allow some businesses to randomly make up other arbitrary "NJ-specific regulations" that are *stricter* than the one that exist in reality and ultimately get away with it? :-)

 

(Sorry for after-midnight BS thoughts... :-) )

HAH! Like stopping a bill mid vote in a committee because it doesn't look like it's going to pass and transferring it to another committee where they know the vote is stacked high enough for it to pass?

 

Gun shops get away with doing what they do because it's their livelihood on the line. NJ has a track record of scrutinizing anything gun related, and finding ANY way to screw you over as much as possible, whether it's that single hollow point you didn't notice rolling around in your car, or the bathroom break you took on the way home from the range (I know, not tested by law yet). FFLs get even more scrutiny because that's their business, and they have to deal with federal and state compliance. One member here got denied a transfer because the shop *thought* they might be doing a straw purchase (ATF can be a real jerk too). The point is, I got a ton of respect for anyone with the balls to start ANY type of business in NJ, given the crappy economic environment, and even more respect for someone who wants to start one of the few businesses that this state will actively try to screw over. Would I give business to someone who adds more restrictions than needed? Probably not, I prefer to deal with people who are either more knowledgeable, or more understanding of the stupid situation. But I get where they're coming from.

 

As far as the discrimination idea goes, I don't think it'd work at all. Mostly because it's probably not going to be considered discrimination in the first place, but even if it were, it's not one of the "protected classes" (race, color, religion, sex, national origin, disability, genetic information, or age, usually). I would also find it silly to complain about a business, then use the (gun-hating) state to force the same business you're complaining about to take your money.

[remixer 1,645]

The law suit i was referring to was one that NYS brought on all firearms distributors that sold firearms to dealers in NYS that were not compliant. As dealers we are legally allowed to bring in anything we want legal or not. Its our job and responsibility NOT TO SELL those within the state until they are legal.  this is why many distributors will not even sell non compliant guns to NJ , NY, Ct Md etc etc dealers. They are afraid of the state bringing some completely false law suit on them. The problem comes in that those companies end up spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to prove they did nothing wrong. The states know it and only bring the suits to cause pain on those companies they no they cannot win.  I wish companies would be able to automatically have the state reimburse  the legal expenses when these states go to far and bring this stupid cases.

 

It would also help if the courts were to sanction the AG's that bring these frivolous cases.

[RUTGERS95 890]

HAH! Like stopping a bill mid vote in a committee because it doesn't look like it's going to pass and transferring it to another committee where they know the vote is stacked high enough for it to pass?

 

Gun shops get away with doing what they do because it's their livelihood on the line. NJ has a track record of scrutinizing anything gun related, and finding ANY way to screw you over as much as possible, whether it's that single hollow point you didn't notice rolling around in your car, or the bathroom break you took on the way home from the range (I know, not tested by law yet). FFLs get even more scrutiny because that's their business, and they have to deal with federal and state compliance. One member here got denied a transfer because the shop *thought* they might be doing a straw purchase (ATF can be a real jerk too). The point is, I got a ton of respect for anyone with the balls to start ANY type of business in NJ, given the crappy economic environment, and even more respect for someone who wants to start one of the few businesses that this state will actively try to screw over. Would I give business to someone who adds more restrictions than needed? Probably not, I prefer to deal with people who are either more knowledgeable, or more understanding of the stupid situation. But I get where they're coming from.

 

As far as the discrimination idea goes, I don't think it'd work at all. Mostly because it's probably not going to be considered discrimination in the first place, but even if it were, it's not one of the "protected classes" (race, color, religion, sex, national origin, disability, genetic information, or age, usually). I would also find it silly to complain about a business, then use the (gun-hating) state to force the same business you're complaining about to take your money.

still amazed that happened with repercussions  

[vladtepes 1,060]

i dont hold verifying the law against them....

 

when you walk into a shop and they tell you HP ammo is illegal... or even this exact situation where an FFL says a certain gun is illegal that we all know is not.. what is the first thing we all say.. "if you are going to deal in guns you need to KNOW the law" well that is exactly what they are doing... they are verifying the law, to make sure they are not breaking it.. ultimately to cover their own asses... but knowing the law IS the correct thing to do for ALL involved....

[jrfly3006 42]

So I guess theyre done with us..their website shows no sales to NJ for lowers...awesome

[Vlad G 345]

Remember that making them responsible for not wanting to do business with state with retarded laws is OUR fault not theirs for allowing stupid laws to exist.

[jrfly3006 42]

Remember that making them responsible for not wanting to do business with state with retarded laws is OUR fault not theirs for allowing stupid laws to exist.

yes Vlad it is ultimately our fault but some of these retailers are going with the "punish the restricted states mentality"..it really just hurts the legit gun owners within these states..it does nothing to change political minds. Steve was good enough to do the legwork and provide a contact within NJSP to verify that lowers are GTG..what other proof do they need?..the lower does still go to an FFL who xfers to qualified buyer within the law

[Contrvlr 17]

Remember that making them responsible for not wanting to do business with state with retarded laws is OUR fault not theirs for allowing stupid laws to exist.

As retarded and stupid as the laws here are there isn't one that prevents us from ordering lower receivers to be sent to an FFL

As far as I'm concerned they are no better than those who make laws that punish the law abiding for the actions of criminals

[Vlad G 345]

Well certainly you are free to not buy anything from them, just like they are free to not sell it to you. If you like the notion of free market, you can't be too mad at them.

 

They made a business decisions that dealing with NJ is not worth the money. Whatever their reasons, you can't argue that our laws make it easy. It isn't as if they decided out of the blue to not ship to Texas, they looked our convoluted laws, the looked at the sales numbers to NJ, and they decided that whatever small profit they make is not worth the legal concerns, calls to they lawyers, dealing with NJ dealers, or whatever.

 

Seriously, how much profit do you think they make on those lowers? $10 each? How many do the sell to NJ in a year vs how much does it cost them to deal with NJ silliness?

 

You can be all mad and offended and accuse them of punishing you, but guess what .. they are doing NOTHING to you, they just don't want to deal with you. That isn't punishment, that is just being told you are not worth their time. And we probably are not.

[iCARRY 0]

It's business, don't take it personal.

[jm1827 284]

It is a business decision, but I will certainly make sure I let them know that 1) I personally do not appreciate it, 2) It is definitely making things harder on law abiding NJ gun owners and 3) I will not be buying from them in the future, not lowers or anything else for that matter.

[jrfly3006 42]

It is a business decision, but I will certainly make sure I let them know that 1) I personally do not appreciate it, 2) It is definitely making things harder on law abiding NJ gun owners and 3) I will not be buying from them in the future, not lowers or anything else for that matter.

THIS

[2Alpha 6]

As retarded and stupid as the laws here are there isn't one that prevents us from ordering lower receivers to be sent to an FFLAs far as I'm concerned they are no better than those who make laws that punish the law abiding for the actions of criminals

You should start your own company selling lowers to NJ resident instead of bitching about how others run their business

[Vlad G 345]

You do know that it is not their job to make your life easier?

 

Every time I see someone complaining about how some gun related retailer is abandoning gun owners, what I really hear is "we can't solve this by ourselves, other people should help us". I understand the sentiment, but it simply doesn't work that way. AIM doesn't owe me or you or NJ any favors. You can decide not to do business with them for them not going out of their way to support your cause, but ask yourself what can AIM do to fight 10-15 stages worth of stupid laws? Is that in their business charter? 

 

Think about it, how much harder does it really make it on you? You have to drive yourself to a FFL anyway to pick it up, what it does it make it SLIGHTLY more expensive, and even then this might not be true. Once you count in transfer fees, what is the price difference between ordering it from AIM or having your local dealer order it for you?  Is there a shortage of lowers in NJ? Your local dealer can't order you one? What exactly has AIM made harder?

 

If you REALLY think about it, whenever you order a lower from AIM you are probably harming local dealers and ourselves, because paying them $10 extra might make a bigger difference in the long term then boycotting AIM.

[jrfly3006 42]

So whats happens when the rest of the distributors around the US get together at a trade meeting, adopt the same business model and say fugg NJ..what happens when they decide to stop other items as reloading compnents, loaded ammo, firearm components..even to FFLs.(all of which are occuring already at some level). When they all get together and say screw you guys and the supply of those items dries up ..even for local dealers..then what..drive to PA..well then those guys get on the screw you bandwagon also.. .There isnt anything wrong with NJ gun owners expressing some dissatisfaction with retailers that wont work with us...because if the trend catches on then it will have the same net effect as a defacto ban on said items...Yes it is business but nothing say you cant open your mouth about it and try and stem the tide

[Contrvlr 17]

So whats happens when the rest of the distributors around the US get together at a trade meeting, adopt the same business model and say fugg NJ..what happens when they decide to stop other items as reloading compnents, loaded ammo, firearm components..even to FFLs.(all of which are occuring already at some level). When they all get together and say screw you guys and the supply of those items dries up ..even for local dealers..then what..drive to PA..well them thise guys get on the screw you bandwagon..there isnt anything wrong with NJ gun owners expressing some dissatisfaction with retailers that wont work with us...because if the trend catches on then it will have the same net effect as a defacto ban on said items...Yes it is business but nothing say you cant open your mouth about it

Thank You

[jm1827 284]

So whats happens when the rest of the distributors around the US get together at a trade meeting, adopt the same business model and say fugg NJ..what happens when they decide to stop other items as reloading compnents, loaded ammo, firearm components..even to FFLs.(all of which are occuring already at some level). When they all get together and say screw you guys and the supply of those items dries up ..even for local dealers..then what..drive to PA..well then those guys get on the screw you bandwagon also.. .There isnt anything wrong with NJ gun owners expressing some dissatisfaction with retailers that wont work with us...because if the trend catches on then it will have the same net effect as a defacto ban on said items...Yes it is business but nothing say you cant open your mouth about it and try and stem the tide

Exactly, it is happening in California already with several manufacturers refusing to sell semiautomatic handguns.  Unfortunately this is exactly what the liberals want.

[2Alpha 6]

So whats happens when the rest of the distributors around the US get together at a trade meeting, adopt the same business model and say fugg NJ..what happens when they decide to stop other items as reloading compnents, loaded ammo, firearm components..even to FFLs.(all of which are occuring already at some level). When they all get together and say screw you guys and the supply of those items dries up ..even for local dealers..then what..drive to PA..well then those guys get on the screw you bandwagon also.. .There isnt anything wrong with NJ gun owners expressing some dissatisfaction with retailers that wont work with us...because if the trend catches on then it will have the same net effect as a defacto ban on said items...Yes it is business but nothing say you cant open your mouth about it and try and stem the tide

 

Then you open your own business selling these items in NJ.  Its not a problem, it is an opportunity

[iCARRY 0]

Like Vlad G said, support you LGS.

[jrfly3006 42]

Like Vlad G said, support you LGS.

FWIW this thread was started and contact made to NJSP and Aim by my FFL which I use and support -Monmouth Arms..

[Vlad G 345]

FFS, any other conspiracy theories you want to come up with besides all the distributors abandoning NJ?

 

Ruger and S&W pulling out of Cali is a GOOD thing, it is part of a fight that needs to be had or else we all end up with idiotic microstamps.

 

I get really annoyed at gun owners in NJ playing the victim. Year after year we don't vote, or elect the same idiots, and when we have marches it is too cold or too busy or whatever. Then when legitimate business say we have had it dealing with your state's silliness we play the effing victim as if AIM or whoever wants to lose money and not sell products.

 

Accept responsibility for the state of affairs in this state because only then we can start working on the problems. 

[RUTGERS95 890]

agree vlad

[mikka1 2]

(...)

They made a business decisions that dealing with NJ is not worth the money. Whatever their reasons, you can't argue that our laws make it easy. It isn't as if they decided out of the blue to not ship to Texas, they looked our convoluted laws, the looked at the sales numbers to NJ, and they decided that whatever small profit they make is not worth the legal concerns, calls to they lawyers, dealing with NJ dealers, or whatever.

(...)

 

And how "dealing with NJ dealers" is really different from "dealing with MN dealers" or "dealing with NC dealers"?

I am not trying to catch anyone on what's said, I seriously don't know, that's why I'm asking.

I though for them it's only a matter of "check if the party they send something to has FFL" - "send it out - receiving FFL will do the rest" regardless of what state it is headed to.

In the bad case scenario they will just get the item shipped back to them from FFL if it is not in compliance with some local laws etc. IANAL, but I'd say it can be negotiated with a customer in advance that if something like that happens, he will be refunded net of any shipping/handling fees.

What's really the big deal for them to work with NJ FFLs?

[Vlad G 345]

Because when NJ decided to sue them, you think NJ will care about how it was legally done?  We all know it is legal for them to ship it to an FFL in NJ, that's not the issue. The issue may be that whenever a NJ legal entity sends them a letter claiming horsecrap that doesn't exist or any such concern, they have to probably call their lawyer, hand him a check, and tell him to figure it out. It probably cost them $1000 or more every time that happens. If they make $10 on every lower, every 100 lowers going to NJ could get sucked up into every lawyer call.

 

They can be pretty sure they don't have to deal with other states, and they are selling every lower the get in stock, so why take a loss?

[PK90 3,570]

[thinking out loud]Hmmm. I see a future business opportunity here.[/thinking out loud]

[WP22 1,558]

They made a business decision regardless of the law. It's their business, their livelihood, their freedom, their prerogative to do so.

I'm all good with that.

They made their decision, I made mine and told them about it, too.

 

The sad part is that very soon all this will be forgotten and "deals" from AIM will be posted here the same way that CTD and Dick's are.

 

[mipafox 438]

That's certainly their choice, but I'd be concerned with losing permanent business. If it were me, I'd have made sure of the laws "before" the New Year begins, rather than shutting down opportunities to make money! 

I'm sure Jersey is their cash cow. Right. Most of their potential jersey customers have probably posted in this thread.

[HBecwithFn7 296]

I'm sure Jersey is their cash cow. Right. Most of their potential jersey customers have probably posted in this thread.

 

I'd not be one to turn away any business for any reason... as long as it's not illegal, immoral or fattening. I guess they think they don't need us, or the hassle. Like I say... their choice, but I for one have a very long memory. They might need my business someday...

[mipafox 438]

I'd not be one to turn away any business for any reason... as long as it's not illegal, immoral or fattening. I guess they think they don't need us, or the hassle. Like I say... their choice, but I for one have a very long memory. They might need my business someday...

What about legally precarious and unprofitable?

 

It never ceases to amaze me how some of you guys think it should be the duty of distributors to learn NJ laws inside and out to make sure they can sell you every single thing you might possibly be able to legally own. Bending over backwards to do it, all at peril, for potentially zero profit.

 

Yet people cheer when gun companies move out of NY or stop doing business with CA. You think NJ business is more desirable? It's far less desirable. No comparison.

 

I'm one to turn away business for a whole lot of reasons, and certainly less than this. I just do it a little differently. The analogy would be I would sell a lower to an NJ resident for $1500. Now that is ridiculous, right? Well, I don't say No. I just say you're going to have to make it worth my while.