djw2033

How well would ..

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A competely virtual range do?  How realistic are they?

 

im taking top of the line technology with over 1000 senerios.

 

would be able to avoid most of the zoning issues.. contemplating a 100k+ to look into  this option.

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Cool idea. At that point, though, you could just do Airsoft scenarios. I'd love to do milsim Airsoft, i used to play but never too seriously. At least that way you're getting shot at, and you shouldn't have an issue as far as zoning goes in most places..
I had grenades and all.

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The military has used VR systems for training for some time.  Flight simulators , artillery adjustment, tank gunnery, crew served weapons, and small arms are just some of the ways the military uses them.

I don't think you'd be able to touch these kind of systems for 100k.

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2 minutes ago, djw2033 said:

I wouldn’t be looking for milarty but I have priced out some 180 screen and hat fats system and I could have quite a system for 100-125

I haven't shot a FATS for some time.  Even then there were FATS that would shoot back at you hitting parts of your body with a  blast of compressed air.  Thing is how much do you think you can charge and make money on it.  You'd have to do constant updates.  People would stop coming if they shot the same scenarios.

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Some systems I’ve priced out come with 4-5 modes and upwards of 1000 senarios

 

ia there a chance for for officers and other security to use as training?

 

chance for people to understand guns prior to going to a live fire ?

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Every Police Academy that I know of, most counties, and quite a few departments already have their own. We are looking at getting a new 5 screen, 270* system sometime in then next year probably. Our current one has the ability to recreate our qualifications and training courses of fire.

They are a great tool for use of force and decision making. They do a decent job of simulating real guns, but will never replace them.

Without proper training to go hand in hand with the scenarios - the ability to conduct good and honest AARs following each scenario, a proctor knowledgeable and experienced in use of force, and a firearms instructor that knows how to handle guns in a gunfight (not mere marksmanship), the training value is lost and all you really have is a very sophisticated and expensive video game.

 

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13 hours ago, djw2033 said:

That being said do you see an all indoor virtual range as profitable?

Actually, that's an interesting idea. Once Murphy gets done with us, the only firearms we'll be allowed to own are derringers and muzzle loaders, and real ranges will be a thing of the past.

Maybe a virtual range could have a future?

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5 minutes ago, Sniper22 said:

Actually, that's an interesting idea. Once Murphy gets done with us, the only firearms we'll be allowed to own are derringers and muzzle loaders, and real ranges will be a thing of the past.

Maybe a virtual range could have a future?

It does serve a purpose and I would love to try it but it would never replace an actual range. At least not until they make a virtual gun that you can use for self defense!

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36 minutes ago, JohnnyB said:

It does serve a purpose and I would love to try it but it would never replace an actual range. At least not until they make a virtual gun that you can use for self defense!

I did some quick searching, seems like there are some systems that are pretty realistic.

One place actually advertises they have a AR15 with actual recoil.

https://www.firstshotdyer.com/pricing

Plus, they offer some training classes that a normal range does, like NRA basic, CCW, etc.

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Most systems have guns that recoil. Ours used air systems like an Airsoft gun.

Here’s the thing:

Yes - startup costs will probably be less to build a virtual range that a real range, which will effect your pricing model.

But, all things being equal, how many ports does a firing range have? 10? 12?

Now, how many shooters per hour of operation does a range need to stay in business? How many per hour to stay make a profit?

You need one simulator system per shooter you wish to accommodate.

So, you either need to buy 10 or 12 systems OR charge 10 or 12 times per hour to make money.

I think it would be an excellent supplement to a gun store, an existing range, or a training company. As a stand-alone venture, you’d need to buy quite a few to make any money.

 

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44 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

Yes - startup costs will probably be less to build a virtual range that a real range, which will effect your pricing model.

But, all things being equal, how many ports does a firing range have? 10? 12?

Now, how many shooters per hour of operation does a range need to stay in business? How many per hour to stay make a profit?

You need one simulator system per shooter you wish to accommodate.

So, you either need to buy 10 or 12 systems OR charge 10 or 12 times per hour to make money.

Some good points, I would think there would be a lot lower operating costs. What's the liability insurance cost at a real range versus a place like this? No need for RO., a teenager can be hired to go over the basics with customers. Plus, the level of inspections and legal stuff for a range must be high.

Plus, you can cycle more people per hour through a virtual range, so you won't need as many lanes. In a real range, how much time is spent actually shooting, versus re-setting targets, switching out firearms and reloading mags in an hour? I would guess maybe 20 minutes of every hour is actually shooting time, at best, but the lane is tied up for an hour.

I'd like to see the cost structure of putting together a virtual range. It might be an investment I'd be interested in.

 

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24 minutes ago, Sniper22 said:

Some good points, I would think there would be a lot lower operating costs. What's the liability insurance cost at a real range versus a place like this?

Above is likely true

No need for RO., a teenager can be hired to go over the basics with customers.

Disagree with above -  To get the most out of these systems, the proctor needs to know their stuff. That experience will likely not come cheaply. It would be a disservice to have some “Gun Counter Guy” (we all have stories of terrible advice we’ve heard from the local GCG) spouting nonsense while identifying to customers as an SME. Your repeat customers are likely going to be people expecting to train on scenarios that they desire to translate to the real world. As such, they will need appropriate and correct advice and coaching. This will not come from an untrained teenager.

Your one time customers will likely be looking for a “video game” experience.

Plus, the level of inspections and legal stuff for a range must be high.

Likely correct, but I’m not 100% sure.

Plus, you can cycle more people per hour through a virtual range, so you won't need as many lanes. In a real range, how much time is spent actually shooting, versus re-setting targets, switching out firearms and reloading mags in an hour? I would guess maybe 20 minutes of every hour is actually shooting time, at best, but the lane is tied up for an hour.

I disagree with this. The turnover rate or cycling of customers will remain the same. An hour rental is an hour rental. How much time you spend shooting vs setting up is irrelevant.  20 minute rentals? Probably not cost effective. No one will only want 20 minutes. Especially is you are using it a training tool and not a video game.

I'd like to see the cost structure of putting together a virtual range. It might be an investment I'd be interested in.

 

Another difference is you don’t get to train with your own guns. I can’t easily bring my AR, set up with my accessories (lights, optics, slings) and use it. I’ll have to use the the facilities weapon. Same with pistols. I can’t bring my own firearms.

The company I am familiar with does make drop in kits for all kinds of firearms, but they are expensive ($4k per) and take time to install.

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1 hour ago, High Exposure said:

 20 minute rentals? Probably not cost effective. No one will only want 20 minutes.

Doing some research, it looked like 30 minute time slots were popular. For the average group of people, that could be enough.

1 hour ago, High Exposure said:

Especially is you are using it a training tool and not a video game.

I saw three separate uses for the systems. Training for LEO and security people, as a range for gun enthusiasts and for corporate team building outings.

1 hour ago, High Exposure said:

As such, they will need appropriate and correct advice and coaching. This will not come from an untrained teenager.

How about from a "techie" teenager? After all, it's a glorified video game, right?

1 hour ago, High Exposure said:

Another difference is you don’t get to train with your own guns. I can’t easily bring my AR, set up with my accessories (lights, optics, slings) and use it. I’ll have to use the the facilities weapon. Same with pistols. I can’t bring my own firearms.

Actually one of the systems I was reading about said you can use just about all guns. They had a insertable mag that was the laser, it just didn't have the recoil affect.

I get it, these wouldn't be for the hard core gun nut who has a safe full of hardware. But for the occasional shooter, people who don't own guns (or can't get a FID card), the video generation or corporate events, there could be some application. Heck, even for some of the fence sitting, gun grabbing Liberals, it might be a way to get them to experience the firearm industry without actually firing a real gun.

What if Anthony had one of these? Could he have persuaded Weinberg to fire a few rounds after her interview, then go easy on us?

 

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Virtual Range would do well initially then the novelty would wear off. If they could somehow mix virtual scenarios with live fire that would have lasting power. However that would be very expensive if the technology is even there yet.

 

 

I've often wondered are there any public ranges out there that you do go through a course where good guys, bad guys, and bad guys holding good guys hostage pop out?

 

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Sniper22 said:

How about from a "techie" teenager? After all, it's a glorified video game, right?

My point wasn’t about the running the tech. It was about running the scenarios.

You need a proctor that is able to examine and dissect the actions and decision making process of the user during an AAR. Then go over them with the user in a way that the user will accept and cause self reflection on their mistakes and successes.

The scenarios are like a choose your own adventure book. You can change them on the fly based on the actions of the user. You need someone experienced in use of force decision making and the legal standards of use of force at the very least.

A bad proctor can create serious training scars at best and cause someone to use extremely bad judgment in a real world use of force situation at worst.

Sure, anyone can run a zombie blast’em scenario with no ill effects - and they are actually very fun!

But when you start getting into scenarios that simulate the legal use of force in real world conditions as a tool to hone the response of law abiding armed Americans, anything less than an experienced proctor is irresponsible, in my opinion anyway.

 

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Doesn’t RTSP have a simulator?


Yea they do. I’ve used it and it is not bad, but I don’t think it actually gets much usage. Unfortunately they significant over priced it to start with and that caused people to not use it. They eventually dropped the price by 50% but I still don’t think it gets much use.

I have software at home that uses cameras and overlays on targets I tape to the wall and use a laser SIRT Gun. It actually reviser everything and scores the targets in real time giving me USPSA hit factors as well. Not very expensive and a great tool.
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2 minutes ago, Howard said:

I have software at home that uses cameras and overlays on targets I tape to the wall and use a laser SIRT Gun. It actually reviser everything and scores the targets in real time giving me USPSA hit factors as well. Not very expensive and a great tool.

Howard, those systems are a great tool for marksmanship for sure.

But that is only one of the many ways these simulators can be used and a very small fraction of what they are capable of.

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34 minutes ago, capt14k said:

I don't know never been there. It's on the other side of the Raritan River. Any outdoor ranges with simulator

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
 

Not that I know of but I’m am definitely not the last word on what’s available. 

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I agree the systems are great for things like training police officers, but for the average joe shooter they don't provide much more value than what I am talking about.  In fact, the system I have is actually much better for improving things like USPSA or IDPA skills.

I recall when I did one of the scenarios at RTSP I was shot and had no idea where the shoots came from until the third time they replayed it as it was from a roof of a building and I was used to thinking in two dimension not three dimensions.  But that is not really and issue for my shooting needs.  For a cop, practicing that could be the difference between going home and not.

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I agree the systems are great for things like training police officers, but for the average joe shooter they don't provide much more value than what I am talking about.  In fact, the system I have is actually much better for improving things like USPSA or IDPA skills.

I recall when I did one of the scenarios at RTSP I was shot and had no idea where the shoots came from until the third time they replayed it as it was from a roof of a building and I was used to thinking in two dimension not three dimensions.  But that is not really and issue for my shooting needs.  For a cop, practicing that could be the difference between going home and not.


Check our LASR system.

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20 hours ago, High Exposure said:

 Our current one has the ability to recreate our qualifications and training courses of fire.

They are a great tool for use of force and decision making. They do a decent job of simulating real guns, but will never replace them.

Can your current system dump video from body cams to recreate a real scenario?  Might be good for afteraction review or to build real scenarios your dept actually faced. 

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