Application to be denied. Should I try to withdraw it before it's official or go through with the appeal?

[fuzzynukes 4]

Friday I had a phone call with my town's Chief of Police and he said that my application for my firearms id and two handgun permits is going to be rejected. He said the reason is because I was involuntary committed back in 2008 for two days and didn't put it on my application. (Long story short, I am not suicidal and never have been. This was just basically my being stupid and having a cry for attention then my parents overreacted and then I'm in a mental institution for two days.)  The reason I didn't put it on is because I forgot about it but that's a moot point at this stage. He also said the only other thing the investigation found was a disorderly conduct also in 2008 but nothing in the 14 years since. He said that if I plan to appeal, he's 99% sure if I explained everything to the judge and had a letter from a doctor saying that I'm not a threat to myself or others and won't be if I do have firearms, then there is a high chance I will win my appeal.  However, I am reading a bunch of court decisions and the judges are denying appeals because they answered no for the hospitalization when it was yes regardless of the circumstances.

 

I am debating just going to my police department first thing Monday morning and asking to withdraw my application and then just resubmit it with the commitment information on it. However, I don't know if I even have any information from my commitment. I can't even name the place where it was. I can probably get it from the police but I'm not sure.

 

Do you think I should just withdraw and resubmit it, even though it took 3 months from when I turned in my application until the phone call with my Chief of Police, or should I just have a meeting with my doctor or find a psychiatrist to meet and get them to write a letter saying that I'm not a threat to myself or others?

 

If any of you have been in similar situations, please let me know what you did and how it turned out.  I'm really burning out my brain thinking of what to do here.

[124gr9mm 473]

Bunch of if/then scenarios IMO.

I think it makes sense checking if you can withdraw the application and start over.  With so much of the process being online now I'm not sure it's an option, but if that's possible then that would be best.

If not, then you'll have to appeal the rejection.

In either case you'll need to get the letter from a doctor saying that you're mentally safe to have a firearm.  That will take time and money, so your application process will be further delayed.

Also, if you go in front of a judge with "I forgot" when you discuss lying on the initial application (if you go through the appeal process) then it's safe to assume he'll reject the request.  Come up with a better BS line than that. 

I appreciate that the incident happened when you were young, but you're a grown up now, so you have to take ownership of it.  If you can't find information about the incident in your own records then contact your parents and get it from them.  If they're not around any longer you'll have to do a record search and get it yourself.

[Lawnmower2021 160]

I thought the mental health check only went back ten years. It would be ideal to not have a rejected application on record.

It might be best to consult with a lawyer, especially given the disorderly conduct offense which may have been a violation and not a crime.

[fuzzynukes 4]

1 hour ago, 124gr9mm said:

Also, if you go in front of a judge with "I forgot" when you discuss lying on the initial application (if you go through the appeal process) then it's safe to assume he'll reject the request.  Come up with a better BS line than that.

As BS as it sounds, it's the truth.  It was a blip in my life 14 years ago.  Sorry that I didn't remember.

I will go down to my police department first thing in the morning though and try and withdraw it before it becomes official.

[father-of-three 176]

Appeals are long and expensive processes.  In states like Pennsylvania, the chance of winning the appeal is still slim.  I will assume that New Jersey will be much more stringent than Pennsylvania.

[15636215 305]

First thing you should do is contact a gun lawyer. There is no way they will let you take it back!

[DirtyDigz 1,285]

2 hours ago, 15636215 said:

First thing you should do is contact a gun lawyer. There is no way they will let you take it back!

Yep, start saving your money, because if the police station doesn't let you "withdraw" your application (It may be possible, but I've never heard of it), you will need to get a lawyer to appeal, and there is a tight deadline to file your appeal after you are officially denied.

Likely either as part of your current application, or as part of an appeal, the police or a judge will make securing an "ok to own firearms" letter from a psychiatrist/doctor a requirement; there's only a couple of doctors in NJ who will do that, and their evaluation to secure the letter isn't cheap.

[Dr. Goodshot 15]

I think they might let you withdraw an application. I did have an application withdrawn when one of my references didn't respond after a week, so I gave up on him and started a new application. I called the PD and said I'd like to have an application withdrawn, and they said it would be automatically withdrawn once the new application comes in. Of course my MIA reference finally sent in his reference about 15 minutes after I completed the second application. I got an "application withdrawn" email. Not the same circumstance, but at least we know there is such a thing.

If that is not an option you could perhaps also ask if they would hold the application, just sit on it until you've had time to get a letter from a doctor saying you're OK to handle firearms. Once you have such a letter from a medical doctor, you should be good to go according to the NJ gun statute. Of course you will probably need to talk to a lawyer as well. 

[Bomber 822]

On 5/1/2022 at 3:56 AM, fuzzynukes said:

 I had a phone call with my town's Chief of Police and he said that my application for my firearms id and two handgun permits is going to be rejected.

I am debating just going to my police department first thing Monday morning and asking to withdraw my application and then just resubmit it with the commitment information on it.

Withdraw the application ASAP or get it put on hold if possible.

The Chief may have done you a favor by calling, he didn't have to do that.  

 BTW- Including the involuntary commitment on a new application will still get your FID denied but for a different reason.

Call Frank Pisano Esq. if you want to get an expert firearms attorney opinion. 

[Bomber 822]

On 5/1/2022 at 3:56 AM, fuzzynukes said:

Friday I had a phone call with my town's Chief of Police and he said that my application for my firearms id and two handgun permits is going to be rejected He said that if I plan to appeal, he's 99% sure if I explained everything to the judge and had a letter from a doctor saying that I'm not a threat to myself or others and won't be if I do have firearms, then there is a high chance I will win my appeal. 

 

It was decent of the Chief to personally call you, however I wouldn't take any legal advice from him. There are other options besides an appeal to a Superior court judge.

Way back when I first applied for my FID I just got letter in mail from the Chief stating it was denied for something minor that also happened 14 years prior that I vaguely remembered and incorrectly thought had been dismissed and thus didn't mention on the application.

I ended up hiring Frank Pisano to do an expungement, then reapplied the FID and it was granted.

Regardless of the FID you need to get your record cleaned up and expunged if necessary. You don't want potential employers or others running backround checks on you and having this stuff come up:

https://www.njgunlawyers.com/page.php?here=fidDenied

  "But in many cases, convictions for crimes can be expunged. N.J.S. 2C:52-27 states that the effect of having a conviction expunged is that the conviction shall be deemed “not to have occurred.” Commitments to mental health facilities, both voluntary and involuntary, can also be expunged".

 

[fuzzynukes 4]

For those who are wondering, I got an email this morning saying it was denied.  So I guess I'm fucked.  Thank you for all the help.

[DirtyDigz 1,285]

11 minutes ago, fuzzynukes said:

For those who are wondering, I got an email this morning saying it was denied.  So I guess I'm fucked.  Thank you for all the help.

 

 

Seriously, retain one of the lawyers recommended and fight this.  This will have repercussions on your ability to receive firearm transfers and your security clearance should you ever pursue a job where security clearance matters.

[fuzzynukes 4]

1 minute ago, DirtyDigz said:

I plan to.  First, I want to see if I can get a meeting with my Chief and talk to him again.  I know that nothing can be done on his end but I have some thing that I would like to know about the "investigation".

[Scorpio64 3,859]

12 minutes ago, fuzzynukes said:

So I guess I'm fucked. 

Not necessarily.  It's gonna take a psych eval and a lawyer to get it straightened out, but it can be done.

[DirtyDigz 1,285]

Just now, fuzzynukes said:

I plan to.  First, I want to see if I can get a meeting with my Chief and talk to him again.  I know that nothing can be done on his end but I have some thing that I would like to know about the "investigation".

I wouldn't bother.  Go directly to lawyer.  Clock is ticking.

[oldguysrule649 334]

Related to this topic, I recommend you go to “gun.lawyer” and listen to Evan Nappen’s latest podcast entitled “Guns and Mental Health”. 
Moreover, I concur with others in recommending you consult a firearm attorney. Otherwise you risk going down a rabbit hole and permanently losing your 2A rights.

Also recommend you search these forums for “Question #26” for past informative info on this topic. 

[Smokin .50 1,870]

1 hour ago, fuzzynukes said:

For those who are wondering, I got an email this morning saying it was denied.  So I guess I'm fucked.  Thank you for all the help.

You're on the 30 Day Clock to file the appeal.  Forget the CLEO meeting.  Figure out how many thousands of bucks you have to put towards this, and call a lawyer.  Make sure that your lawyer is a firearms specialist, NOT a generalist that's a friend of the family.  ANJRPC has a list they recommend (free initial consult to ANJRPC members btw) and Pisano (from above) is on that list!

Getting someone qualified to give you "the letter" saying you won't harm yourself takes time & MONEY.  It's not a single visit.

Your attorney will know in what order things need to get done (filing appeal, expungement, reapplication) and about what the fees are.

If you have dual residency in another state DO NOT TRANSFER any firearms.  Lying on a 4473 opens up a whole new can of worms.

Good luck!

---R

[fuzzynukes 4]

I wrote both Pisano and Nappen.  We'll see what happens from here.

[124gr9mm 473]

2 hours ago, fuzzynukes said:

I plan to.  First, I want to see if I can get a meeting with my Chief and talk to him again.  I know that nothing can be done on his end but I have some thing that I would like to know about the "investigation".

I think it would be great if he'll meet with you, even if it's just for a few minutes.

Building a relationship with your local police (particularly the chief) is always a good thing IMO.  If they recognize you by name/face because of a regular conversation they had with you, they'll be more likely to give you the benefit of the doubt in future interactions.

It won't change the fact that you'll likely need a lawyer and doctor letter for a future application, but it can't hurt.

Good luck.

[Bomber 822]

7 hours ago, fuzzynukes said:

For those who are wondering, I got an email this morning saying it was denied.  So I guess I'm fucked.  Thank you for all the help.

Not at all.

You just need to contact a firearms attorney and get those incidents on your record expunged then reapply. 

 I wouldn't bother meeting with the Chief, your attorney will request a copy of the PD's investigation and the reason for the denial.

Even if you don't pursue the FID get those things off your record, now. Who knows what other denials or disqualifications they may cause you in the future. It would be money well spent.

[Bomber 822]

On 5/3/2022 at 8:21 AM, DirtyDigz said:

  Clock is ticking.

Only if he wanted to appeal this denial, which I wouldn't recommend.

[JC_68Westy 1,005]

It would be cheaper and quicker to move to a free state where you don't have to deal with the NJ crap.

[DirtyDigz 1,285]

On 5/3/2022 at 1:01 PM, Bomber said:

Only if he wanted to appeal this denial, which I wouldn't recommend.

He should absolutely appeal THIS denial.

What is your reasoning for recommending against it?

[Scorpio64 3,859]

On 5/3/2022 at 7:39 PM, JC_68Westy said:

It would be cheaper and quicker to move to a free state where you don't have to deal with the NJ crap.

Unfortunately the denial will follow.  The OP will have to answer yes to being denied in another state.  It has to be dealt wither here and asap, at least lawyer up and get the ball rolling.

[Bomber 822]

17 hours ago, DirtyDigz said:

He should absolutely appeal THIS denial.

What is your reasoning for recommending against it?

Without expunging the disorderly conduct charge and doing something about the involuntary commitment he will likely get denied again, this time by a Superior court judge, perhaps a 2nd amendment hating Leftist one at that.

Even if he somehow got the FID he'd still have that stuff on his record and would have to disclose it on future PP applications.

Any firearms attorney worth his salt would advise cleaning up his record first then reapplying (accompanied by a letter explaining the reasons for the failure disclose in the first application).  Once his record is clear the Chief won't have a reason to deny the FID. 

Thats what I had to do and never had any issues with purchasing or getting PP's subsequently.

[JC_68Westy 1,005]

9 hours ago, Scorpio64 said:

Unfortunately the denial will follow.  The OP will have to answer yes to being denied in another state.  It has to be dealt wither here and asap, at least lawyer up and get the ball rolling.

How can it follow? Other states don't ask about denials in NJ. In VA we have no questions about ever being denied. That is a NJ thing.

[DirtyDigz 1,285]

9 hours ago, Bomber said:

Without expunging the disorderly conduct charge and doing something about the involuntary commitment he will likely get denied again, this time by a Superior court judge, perhaps a 2nd amendment hating Leftist one at that.

My expectation is that in the course of the appeal his lawyer will ALSO expunge the record.

There is NO GOOD REASON to wait for an expungement while getting an official denial on his record.

[Bomber 822]

7 hours ago, DirtyDigz said:

My expectation is that in the course of the appeal his lawyer will ALSO expunge the record.

There is NO GOOD REASON to wait for an expungement while getting an official denial on his record.

He already has been denied, why risk another one from a Superior court judge no less. The safe strategy is to clean up the record then reapply and stay out of the N.J. courts. 

I was in the same situation (minus the involuntary commitment). Frank Pisano advised the above and it worked out very well, an appeal was the last resort if the Chief denied the second application.    

[fuzzynukes 4]

7 hours ago, Bomber said:

He already has been denied, why risk another one from a Superior court judge no less. The safe strategy is to clean up the record then reapply and stay out of the N.J. courts. 

I was in the same situation (minus the involuntary commitment). Frank Pisano advised the above and it worked out very well, an appeal was the last resort if the Chief denied the second application.    

This is essentially what I am going to do, I also talked to Pisano.  I am working on getting all my records together and then go to Pirelli so I can get a evaluation that will stand up to everything and will help to expunge my mental records later on, which I will be hiring Pisano or whomever to help with that.

 

Thank you everyone for all the advise.

[Mrs. Peel 6,418]

Good luck to you!