Ammo type for HD

[Old School 611]

PM sent to Shane

 

Sorry Shane you can't get any new messages, as per the flag.

[Redfish62 1]

PM sent to Shane

 

 

Hey no pm's, I really find the comparison interesting between buck shot vs 5.56 for HD and want to hear more. I am not interested in a pissing contest between the too but just the facts.

 

 

[Krdshrk 3,877]

alright, alright, you're twisting my arm here... I got S&B buck and I got the Mossy, I'm now 70% likely to show up @ BH tonight...

 

Do it! You know you want to!

[EchoMirage 137]

theres a reason its called birdshot......its used for birds. buckshot is called such because its used for buck. which is closer to a human; a bird or buck?

 

as far as 'knocking down' your target, its been proven the term 'knock down power' is a misnomer, and there is no such thing. scenes in the movies of someone being literally blown out of their shoes from a shotgun is total fantasy. think about it. using the so called deadly birdshot........after shooting a bird, lets say dove, have you ever seen it blown upward into the sky from the force of the pellets hitting it........or did it just wobble, crumple, and fall to the ground? after shooting a deer, with a slug, does it ever get knocked sideways off its feet, or does it just keep running, perhaps stumbling at most?

[Shane45 807]

Huh, What, what was the flag?

 

 

OIC all messages got imported putting me like 150% over quota!

[Guest Damagedworld]

good luck knocking down a man sized target wearing a heavy winter coat with birdshot.. yeah its gonna hurt him.. yeah he will likely bleed.. but as to if it will actually stop him or not.. not so sure.. I was shooting some cheap birdshot at 25 yards with my mossberg, and well with the resulting holes I can say it is NOT something I would bet my life on.. anyone ever try polyshok, it is restricted to LE and military sale but kind of interesting looking..

[Ray Ray 3,566]

Old school, Id take the Ar over the shotty any day of the week.

 

inside a home,there is no better weapon than a shotgun. None. Better than a full auto tommy gun or AK.

[Shane45 807]

Ray, what are you worried about. Forget the shotty or the AR, they will run in terror when they see your shank on yer pistol!!!

 

Kidding aside, Im sorry but ol faithfull is no match for a semiauto rifle with proper 5.56 ammo. You dont get to pick how the situation unfolds. The scope of a rifle is better. This is why you are seeing shotguns being replaced in squad cars with rifles.

[Shane45 807]

There is one point Id like to make....again. Choose wisely. There is a value in using what you have confidence in. But I submit that a fighting mindset and training with what you have is more important than the selection. Forget what Im using, fear me because I am the weapon. If I have to shove my fist wrapped around a .380 down the intruders throat and press it against his vital organ to protect my family, it is what I will do.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

Ray, what are you worried about. Forget the shotty or the AR, they will run in terror when they see your shank on yer pistol!!!

 

Kidding aside, Im sorry but ol faithfull is no match for a semiauto rifle with proper 5.56 ammo. You dont get to pick how the situation unfolds. The scope of a rifle is better. This is why you are seeing shotguns being replaced in squad cars with rifles.

 

They are being replaced because shotguns don't have the capacity or reach of an AR. We are talking indoors here, from me to the guy 5 feet in front of me.

 

Come on Shane, I know you hate pumps and revolvers, but they still have a place in HD/SD applications.

[Old School 611]

Ray, what are you worried about. Forget the shotty or the AR, they will run in terror when they see your shank on yer pistol!!!

 

Kidding aside, Im sorry but ol faithfull is no match for a semiauto rifle with proper 5.56 ammo. You dont get to pick how the situation unfolds. The scope of a rifle is better. This is why you are seeing shotguns being replaced in squad cars with rifles.

 

 

BS..They are doing it because they have the budget and it is tacticool. Damned rifles will rust to **** before they ever get any wear.

We used to do clean and oil for an urban department and the biggest problem was getting the cigar ashes out of the barrels.

Haven't you noticed local PDs becoming more paramilitary? Have you thought about those consequences?

[Malsua 1,422]

They are being replaced because shotguns don't have the capacity or reach of an AR.

 

And penetration. The North Hollywood shootout back in 97 exposed that issue quickly. During the shootout cops went to a local gun store and grabbed some AR-15s.

 

Shotguns with slugs weren't doing the trick either. I suspect Sabot slugs would have worked, but they probably had smooth bore shotguns with rifled slugs and those don't have anywhere near the penetration, accuracy or range of a sabot slug.

 

If you read back to the box-o-truth link above, the lessons are very interesting.

 

Lessons learned:

1. Notice that the #4 and #1 Buck penetrated 6 boards. In previous tests, 9mm, .45 ACP, and M-193 out of an AR all penetrated all 12 boards.

 

So, it seems that these loads do not "over-penetrate" as much as some have led us to believe.

 

The 00 Buck penetrated 8 boards, but was stopped by the 9th. Still not as much penetration as the pistol or rifle loads.

 

The slug penetrated all 12 boards.

 

Based on that test one can see that a 9mm, a .45 or an AR all penetrate more than 00 buck. The 00 buck will however have more aggregate energy than any of the others and 9 pellets vs 1 bullet will up your odds of striking something vital.

[Old School 611]

Hey Mark where is the test for sheet rock, R18 insulation, wafer board and cedar shakes? That's what it's going to hit before it gets to your neighbor's house. IF...you are lucky enough to shoot to an outside wall. I have seen a 38 wadcutter go through 2X sheet rock nick a steel shelf go through a fire door and hit someone in the leg outside. Luckily it was spent by then.

 

All this tacticool BS. You don't live in Utah or AZ. Most of you live in urban areas. Be Responcible

[Malsua 1,422]

BS..They are doing it because they have the budget and it is tacticool. Damned rifles will rust to **** before they ever get any wear.

We used to do clean and oil for an urban department and the biggest problem was getting the cigar ashes out of the barrels.

Haven't you noticed local PDs becoming more paramilitary? Have you thought about those consequences?

 

Do you remember Clinton's "50,000 new cops on the streets?" initiative from 1994?

 

What happens to a town that gets money from the Feds to expand their police force when they have enough patrol and investigative officers?

 

They build a swat team. When you have a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail.

 

The Cato institute did a long paper on the subject.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/wtpapers/balko_whitepaper_2006.pdf

 

Here's a quote:

Perhaps most perversely, the Times found that in several cases new SWAT officers were

hired under President Clinton’s “community policing” program.63 Community policing

was originally billed as a less authoritarian, more civil-minded form of law enforcement

designed, in Clinton’s words, “to build bonds of understanding and trust between police

and citizens.”64 Part of that program was Clinton’s resurrection of the Vietnam era

“Troops to Cops” programs, which promised federal funding for local police departments

who hire and train war veterans as civilian police officers, a program embraced by both

Democrats and Republicans.65 It’s not impossible, of course, for a former solider to be

trained as an effective civilian police officer. But that the federal government would be

encouraging an en masse transition from the battlefield to Main Street displays a lack of

understanding of the differences between the ideal military mindset and the ideal mindset

of a civilian police officer.

 

Clinton’s “community policing” program was distorted in other areas of the country,

too. In Portland, for example, from 1989 to 1994, the ratio of common patrol officers to

citizens in Portland actually fell. But the number of police in the paramilitary Tactical

Operations Branch of the Portland Police Bureau increased from 2 to 56.66

[Shane45 807]

Old School, I'm sorry but your contentions are simply wrong. Do some research. You will find a metric ton to the contrary of your postion. There are papers from various Fed agencies that have done the testing. This dictates the direction. Not some fantasies about PD's wanting to become tacticool. That statement right there tells me you have NEVER dealt with a PD selling them gear. They dont want to buy ****!!! Your 38 example is bad. Hell go watch myth busters for that answer. Why could the 9 hit the target in 4 feet of water when the ar couldnt in 1....

 

Ray Ray, please send all your criminals my way because they dont seem to mind working with you and getting into the position you feel is best. OK bad guy, you stand there, and I will be 7 yards away right here, ready, go! LOL. But if you do get a non cooperative bad guy, for example, like a deranged crack head that you spot from the top of the stairwell. He runs out the back door grabbing a butcher knife as he leaves. He's heading straight for your wife and daughter in the garden. Your at the second floor window. What do you want, the shotty or the rifle? Or better yet, 25 Gang members descend upon you like in the other thread. Which would you rather have?

 

You need to understand, you dont get to pick the circumstances or the venue. You can paint your scenarios all day, but you need to remember in the real world, they get painted for you. THAT is why I want the tool with the greatest adaptability.

 

I have all these tools. I have no emotional penchant for one over the other. I simply pick what I think is best for the task. What I dont do is pick on emotion or hearsay. I pick on anectdotal evidence. If someone asks my opinion, shotty or rifle, the empericle evidence drives my recomendation for rifle. But wait, Shane you said you recomended a 20 ga to your friend!!!! Thats right, I did, because there are other circumstances for him. He's not a reguler shooter, doesnt train, but wanted something for protection. In that case the shotgun is the best answer due to its simplicity to operate over a rifle. He did not want a revolver. If you only have a shotgun, use it but understand its limitations and that you have a tool that might fall short in some situations. That goes for ANY weapon. But to say the Shotgun is best is simply not the case.

 

For me, I use neither for HD. I use a pistol.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=1275203

[Shane45 807]

http://www.polyshok.com/problem.htm

 

http://www.polyshok.com/slug_problem.htm

 

 

The Call-Out Bag

by Gunsite Training Center Staff

A Comparison of .223 Penetration vs. Handgun Calibers

The .223 shoulder-fired weapon systems (e.g., AUG, CAR) have received some recent interest as indoor tactical weapons for special operations teams. increased power, longer effective distances, and greater tactical flexibility have been cited as positive factors of the .223 systems over 9me SMG-type weapon systems. Other authors (Fackler, et all) have postulated greater capa-bility for tissue damage and incapacitation of the .223 rifle cartridge over the 9mm projectile fired from handguns or SMGs. Negative considerations for the indoor use of the .223 weapon systems focus on over-penetration of projectiles and possible subsequent liability.

Our effort was made to compare the penetration characteristics of various .223 bullets to various handgun bullets fired into test barriers representing indoor and outdoor building walls. We felt that the following test might mimic shots fired from inside a building, through the internal rooms, out the exterior wall, and into another similar building nearby. A comparison of wall penetration effects by a variety of handgun calibers versus the effects of .223 FMJ ball, .223 SP, and .223 HP, under these same conditions, was expected to substantiate other findings reported or provide new information to those interested in this area of ballistics.

Two interior test walls were constructed using a wood 2x4 frame with standard drywall board attached to both sides. Two exterior test walls were made using wooden frames with drywall board attached to one side and exterior grade T1-11 wooden siding attached on the other (exterior) side. R-19 fiberglass insulation batting (Dow Coming) was stapled inside the two exterior test wails. To maintain test medium consistency, no wooden cross beams, electrical fixtures, conduits, or electrical wiring were placed in any of the test walls.

The test walls were placed in the following sequence to mimic shots fired from. inside a building, through two internal rooms, out the building, and into another similarly constructed building:

A. Interior wall #1 was placed 8 feet from the shooting position.

B. Interior wail #2 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wall #1.

C. Exterior wall #1 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wail #2. (Exteri-or side facing away from the shooter.)

D. Exterior wall #2 was placed 15 feet beyond exterior wall #1. (Exterior side facing toward the shooter.)

All calibers tested were fired from a position 8 feet in front of interior wall #l, so the bullet trajectory would travel in sequence through each of the succeeding test walls. Each caliber tested was chronographed and all firing results were videotaped for archive files.

The following results were obtained:

1. All handgun calibers exited exterior wall #1. This means they exited the "house" after passing through two interior "rooms," then entered another "house" to impact into the berm. The handgun caliber which demonstrated the least penetration was .22 LR Lightning.

2. The only calibers which did NOT exit the "house" were .223 (5.56) soft point and hollow point loaded bullets.

3. All projectiles demonstrated directional changes in their trajectory after passing through the first interior wall. The greatest directional changes (10 inches+ yaw) were shown by 9mm and .40 S&W projectiles.

4. Directional changes in bullet trajectory appeared to increase in magnitude with each test wall the projectile passed through.

The penetration characteristics of projectiles have long been believed to be primarily determined by a relationship of bullet mass, bullet shape, bullet velocity, and bullet construction. The penetration differences of .223 soft point and hollow point projectiles versus the effects from .223 full metal jacket may be due to differences in bullet construction. The differential effects on penetration due to bullet construction shown with the .223 are different and appear greater in magnitude than those encountered when handgun bullet construction is modified. Since .223 projectile velocities are threefold greater than those of handgun projectiles, the increased magnitude of bullet velocity might account for the differences in bullet trajectory and penetration distance. The deviated trajectory of hollow point handgun projectiles was also greater than the deviation found with full metal jacketed handgun bullets; again, possibly due to contact point deformation. The preceding study more than ever identifies the need for a personal emphasis of marksmanship and tactical fundamentals. The shooter is responsible for the bullets that go downrange. Practice, be aware, manage your trigger, and watch your front sight!

Many thanks to Jack Furr, Ron Benson, Pete Wright, and Seth NadeI, U.S. Customs, for conducting and reporting this test.

.22 LR 40 gr Lightning 899 fps Captured in exterior wall #2

9mm 147gr Win JHP 948 fps Captured in exterior wall #2

9mm 147 gr Win JHP 1004 fps Exited exterior wall #2

.40 S&W 180 gr FMJ 941 fps Exited exterior wall #2

.40 S&W 180 gr Black Talon JHP 981 fps Exited exterior wall #2

.45 ACP 230 gr Win FMJ ball 867 fps Captured in exterior wall #2

.45 ACP 230 gr HydraShok JHP 851 fps Exited exterior wall #2

.223 (5.56) 55 gr Fed FMJ ball 2956 fps Exited exterior wall #2

.223 (5.56) 55 gr Rem SP 3019 fps Captured in exterior wall #2

.223 (5.56) 55 gr Fed JHP 3012 fps Captured in exterior wall #2

[Old School 611]

Shane we agree about Military and Paramilitary situations. But, they require different parameters than home defense and different considerations.

I don't need to watch Myth Busters. I can only tell you what I've seen. If your PM was available I was going to tell you about a very personal experience that will not be mentioned here. As far as selling to PD's, been there done that and again I agree somewhat, when it comes to yearly spending or firearms contracts they are tight as a crabs a** also when there's money in the budget it is a use it or loose it situation. But when we did maintenance work for them the weapons were virtually unserviceable.

 

I don't load bird shot for home defense. Rifled slugs for bruins and 9mm for zombies. The rifled slugs are because I need immediate termination of the threat coming from one specific loacation in an area 4 feet wide at a distance of 15-20 feet. The 9mm's are for family use and are a compromise everyone is comfortable with.

 

Shane, I know what the data says and I consider it undisputable. I also know what I've seen and in different situations make different choices based on many factors.

 

I respect your views on the majority of your posts but here we differ and I believe it revolves around the environment a conflict occurs in.

 

Respectfully,

 

Frank

 

BTW let's all pray we never have to pull the trigger and if we must... The outcome is favorable.

[JimmyAGR 54]

Wow Shane, very interesting read. The main reason I wouldn't want to use my AR is because I was worried about my neighbors. Guess my .40 is worse according to this study. Wish I could get a job conducting test like this as always something else to ponder. There really is never one right answer, besides training with what you have.

[Caine 147]

BTW let's all pray we never have to pull the trigger and if we must... The outcome is favorable.

Amen

[Shane45 807]

Old School, I think we are probably less far off than it looks. I appologise if my Myth Busters reference sounded condescending. I merely wanted to point out the tendancey of hyper velocity to frag and stop compared to low vel that can penn more. Counter intuitive but true. I also respect your optinions and Im always open to consider and learn. Please do send on that PM, Im very interested in what you have to say. I think what we need to consider is the audience. And its a point I should have made better but aluded to previously. That is what you and I choose MAY NOT BE the best template for what anyone else should use. My advice to a friend to buy a 20ga pump for example. Its the best solution for him, not the best solution. Knowing your mindset, I would place a fiarly large bet that you have your fields of fire and prospecive backstops all figured out and know where, when and what to shoot. You have taken the limitations of the tool into consideration. But someone reading this thread may not have the experience or knowledge to even consider those things when considering a shotgun for this role. Something not discussed but again alluded to is that a rifle may bring far more liability to the situation if this tool is chosen by an inexperienced shooter. They are more complicated! If one point cane be a takeaway for the readers I think it should be: As is so often the case in firearms, tradeoffs are everywhere. The compromises need to be evaluated and decided upon on a highly individual basis. There is no best.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

I'll stick with my 870. I don't live in the woods so I'm not engaging threats at 100 yards. More like 100 inches. And at room distances nothing, NOTHING beats a pump.

[Shane45 807]

Keep living the fantasy Ray.

[fliks 20]

Old School: what kind of rifled slugs do you use? I was looking into getting some, but as with all shotgun ammo - too many choices

 

and you guys are absolutely right: the right tool is one that the user is comfortable with and knows how to use well. as I'm not at all familiar with rifles, .223 is simply not an option for me. the 12ga (loaded with 00 buck for now, maybe will go with slugs later) & 9mm (with hollowpoints) will have to do for now.

[Jon 264]

I, too, wouldn't use a rifled slug for HD. I have personally sent a 2 3/4" shell with a 1oz rifled hollowpoint slug completely through a deer(broke both hips, forgot to lead it, was running full speed) at a range of 115-120yards. If it has that sort of penetration at over 100yards, imagine what it'll do at 5 yards...

[fliks 20]

yah, I wasn't really thinking about slugs for HD really... more for our favorite (albeit virtual) hunting sport - ZOMBIES!!! just more options to have, you know...

[Jon 264]

yah, I wasn't really thinking about slugs for HD really... more for our favorite (albeit virtual) hunting sport - ZOMBIES!!! just more options to have, you know...

 

I usually use Lightfield 2 3/4" 1oz sabots, or Winchester Supreme Gold 2 3/4" 1oz sabots. The new Winchester XP3 slugs look pretty sweet too... I may switch to them this year. 2000fps makes my pants tight.

 

EDIT: I was incorrect on the Winchester slugs that I use, it is in fact the Supreme Gold, not Super X.

[fliks 20]

and that I could use in a... forgive my ignorance... whatever you call a non-rifled 18.5" bbl?

[Jon 264]

and that I could use in a... forgive my ignorance... whatever you call a non-rifled 18.5" bbl?

 

No, those are all sabot slugs intended for rifled barrels. I have never shot slugs through a smoothbore barrel so I can't render an opinion for that purpose.

[fliks 20]

gotcha. thanks for schoolin' me, Jon.

[Jon 264]

gotcha. thanks for schoolin' me, Jon.

 

My pleasure.