Ammo type for HD

[Maksim 1,504]

woohoo, really awesome shane. How many competitors?

[Shane45 807]

I wanna say around 12. There were some good shooters at that match!

[bulpup 98]

Regarding the debate you guys are having......what matters most is the users ability to manipulate the weapon. Forget FTF's, FTE's, muzzle velocity, all that crap. A .22 in the hands of a person trained in marksmanship/self defense will be much more deadly than an AA-12 in the hands of my girlfriend's mom. Bottom line, what YOU should use for home defense is what YOU are the most proficient with.

 

 

My philosophy has always been, the weapon has to be equal to the proficiency of those that might be called upon to use it..... ALL of those that might be called upon to use it. I find this is an important distinction.

 

Meaning that just because I have trained/exp with on weapons from .177 to 6 inch means nothing if my wife is the first one to get to it in the HD scenario.

I bought the Glock because she and I both can bull with it and not think.

 

(lord knows I wanted a 1911 )

[Ray Ray 3,566]

I wanna say around 12. There were some good shooters at that match!

 

Man that looks like fun! Which makes a good point, practice practice practice! Practice with what you use, and it'll help you big time.

[Guest Damagedworld]

The two links I posted earlier in this thread are relevant to a product called polyshock. Suposedly it deals with some of the issues surrounding shotguns and I have heard it is effective. What I dont know is if it is mil/le only.

 

www.polyshok.com

 

 

I also want to appologise. In looking back through this thread, my point was made long ago.

 

 

Regards,

Shane

 

I was talking about that stuff earlier.. it LOOKS awesome.. the website claims it is military and LE only, and they likely only sell to military or LE... so getting it would be difficult.. but after discussion with a couple knowledgeable LEO friends, they stated that while the manufacture may only sell that way, actually owning shotgun ammunition like that is likely legal.. they were unaware of any shotgun ammo that was specifically banned for owning in NJ.. I am assuming that as they label it "law enforcement" ammunition it is similar to other ammunition you can buy that is "law enforcement" ammo.. the catch is getting polyshock.. I have not found it for sale anywhere.. If you come across any post up the info, as I would really like to give it a try providing it is not illegal to own which as far as I can tell it is not.. if all the stuff they claim on the website is true.. it appears to be the ultimate HD shotgun ammo..

 

DESTROYS the target.. and does NOTHING in way of collateral damage..

 

 

 

I think that the only ammo we can NOT have is "armor piercing"?

[Shane45 807]

If it is truly mil/le only sales....I would be concearned about legal issues arizing if god forbid I had to use it. If you havent read the link I posted under must read, it really is a must read because it is a fantastic detailed look at all that can go wrong for you in a rightious shoot.

[Wojo 98]

For some compelling reason I feel the need to add to this beaten to death topic. I will only add MY personal experiences and what has been shared with me from real operators that have real experience in this issues. YMMV

 

We are talking about HD...less then 25' inside your home, not an apartment or Section 8 housing.

 

Shotgun Observations: I don't have one ready at the ready in the Bedroom for storage reasons, the basement is another story.

Birdshot - Bad, Buckshot - Good, Slug - too much of a good thing. My neighbor (total dick head) got shot in the face with bird shot at close range arguing over a pheasant and walked out of the woods and drove himself to the ER. Have you ever shot a turkey or smaller bird and discovered how many pellets didn't penetrate the layers of wing feathers and reach the body? I have.

3" shells can add more time to the follow up shot over 2 3/4. This could might make your follow up shot less accurate. I know adrenaline.

20g vs. 12g isn't going to mean **** at 25' if your POI is where it should be.

You still have to AIM a shotgun and squeeze the trigger. Trigger control and sight alignment are ALWAYS important. See Training, Training, Training.

Pumping a shotgun isn't a bet I am going to place my life on. Have one chambered, avoid the pumping sound to give away your tactical element of surprise which is a HUGE advantage in YOUR home. fugg giving them warning. When the PD shows up it is your word versus the perp who most likely has a long criminal history. You are protecting your family and weren't the who caused this to happen.

AR's

I love my AR's with the right ammo.

Soft points, HP's, OTM / Open Tip Match - Good. FMJ - not so much. You want to dump all that energy in the first 12" of meat and have multiple wound cavities. Air in, Blood out is good.

Something to seriously consider in our state that bans Flash Suppressors. If you have ever fired you AR or any firearm at night, I mean complete darkness, you get one helluva blast of light and your vision will be changed. Because we live in NJ, most of our ranges do not afford us the opportunity to shoot in complete darkness. My AR muzzles have a break on them compared to my other team members in free states that have flash hiders. The flash signature was insanely different. When I used standard govt contract / surplus / Wolf ammo the flash was big. TAP rounds had significantly less flash then all the rest. All my chambered HD ammo is TAP HP's.

 

Pistol

Use what you can hit with. If it is worth shooting once, Go NYPD and put a few in them. Too many horror stories of guy's thinking I hit them twice, I'm safe.

 

Stat's I learned during my training at Ft Dix with the FBI over the recent couple of years.

Even experience Cops who are considered excellent shots go from 90% efficiency down to 20% in stress fires. In the simulator, my hit ration was closer to 45%. So if you don't train often and hard, what is you hit ratio going to be? 5-10% if you are lucky. To all of you that think I am joking, spend some money with Chris Fry who supports this site and see for yourself.

Depending on whose stat's you use you can expect more then one assailant between 50 to 70% of the time. Make you are always ready for 1 more bad guy to appear. Share the love, make sure you give them some to. No witness are good witnesses.

 

Flashlights

Why the hell hasn't anyone addressed lighting? (Note to self...because it is about ammo you a-hole)

 

You need to have a good light and know how to use the right techniques with a flashlight. The overwhelming majority of shootings happen in reduced visibility settings. Wouldn't it make sense to have a good one and more importantly know how to use it? If you round a corner and blind the squat out of your attacker, he can't see what he is shooting at, but you sure the hell can.

 

Shoot and move. Once you shoot, move your position. When they return fire, they are going to aim at your last known position. Even a few feet makes a big difference.

 

Stop comparing who's is bigger and focus on who uses theirs more and is better trained. Training is where it is at. Not arm chair speculations.

 

Okay, I think I am done. :thsmiley_deadhorse: Before you start slamming me, you better be prepared to back it up with training and facts...because I will post pdf's if I have to.

 

If you ever want to play with some Blue Guns and flashlights, let's meet someplace and have some fun. I'm serious on this one.

 

FWIW - I've killed deer with 223 62g Wolf FMJ, 12 gauge slugs, 308's(125, 150, 165), 30-30's and 50 cal Blackpowder. All dead single shot. What did they all have in common? Shot placement.

[Guest Damagedworld]

If it is truly mil/le only sales....I would be concearned about legal issues arizing if god forbid I had to use it. If you havent read the link I posted under must read, it really is a must read because it is a fantastic detailed look at all that can go wrong for you in a rightious shoot.

 

 

 

what link was that... I ideally will NEVER shoot someone.. I do not want to.. I am not living in some video game world.. LOL the situation is such that I DO own firearms and if my life was ever in danger I would likely use them to protect myself.. that of course is one of the reasons I have them.. while I do tend to like the shotgun for home defense.. I think that my CX4 Storm with hollow points would likely be one of the best home defense guns I own.. the gun points well.. has good velocity.. and would likely stop anyone at that range.. but even with all that said.. in a time of crisis I will likely grab whatever is close to me.. and if that happens to he the AR chambered in 308 so be it.. I will not stand around considering the best gun for the situation.. lol

[Caine 147]

Good post Wojo

[Wolfy 51]

I have heard of the Polyshock ammo. If you shoot someone wearing a vest it will break every rib. I think this is why they don't sell to the public.

[fliks 20]

Good post Wojo

+1 I'd ask for advice on flashlights, but this is an ammo thread. I'll start one in "Optics & Accessories"

[Guest Damagedworld]

I have heard of the Polyshock ammo. If you shoot someone wearing a vest it will break every rib. I think this is why they don't sell to the public.

 

 

I don't know that a 12 gauge slug would really do that much less damage and I can buy them hand over fist..

 

It is ironic that they would develop the "perfect" 12 gauge SD ammo.. ammo that is less likely to hurt any innocent people.. less likely to over penetrate a wall.. but still strong enough to stop.. and then NOT sell it to the public.. lol makes a ton of sense..

[Shane45 807]

Wojo, I seriously would be up for some scenario training!

[Wolfy 51]

I think the effectiveness against a vest is why they don't sell to the public.

[Shane45 807]

I hate that kind of logic... criminals wear vests too.

[Guest Damagedworld]

I hate that kind of logic... criminals wear vests too.

 

 

agreed.. but i think that it even goes beyond that.. is there ANY logic that would indicate that a polyshok impact would be any worse than a slug..

someone on THR emailed them and this is what they said was said..

 

The response I got from Polyshok:

Thanks for your interest in our product. You are correct in thinking that Polyshok would be a great home/personal defense round. It may be available in the future but the liability issues with public sales are substantial, especially with a product that advertises low collateral damage. Cops and the military are willing to assume that liability but the public just wants to find an ambulance chasing lawyer and sue if anyone gets shot. As a small company, our insurance company will simply not cover liability for civilian sales at this time.

[FFDP82 4]

#4 Buckshot is great for HD. 27 pellets. Rio and Fiocchi make nice unbuffered loads that spread very quickly out of a typical 18-20" barrel shotgun. #4 also has excellent terminal ballistics and reduced risk of overpenetration compared to 00.

 

In depth information and photos:

 

http://www.brassfetcher.com/12%20gauge%20number%20four%20buckshot.pdf

[JimmyAGR 54]

Good post Wojo

 

+1, and I am looking for a good light mount for my new Moss 590.

[fliks 20]

+1 I'd ask for advice on flashlights, but this is an ammo thread. I'll start one in "Optics & Accessories"

it got me thinking of the same thing

 

+1, and I am looking for a good light mount for my new Moss 590.

 

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/18613-cheap-solution-for-pistolshotgun-light/

[vjf915 456]

For some compelling reason I feel the need to add to this beaten to death topic. I will only add MY personal experiences and what has been shared with me from real operators that have real experience in this issues. YMMV

 

We are talking about HD...less then 25' inside your home, not an apartment or Section 8 housing.

 

Shotgun Observations: I don't have one ready at the ready in the Bedroom for storage reasons, the basement is another story.

Birdshot - Bad, Buckshot - Good, Slug - too much of a good thing. My neighbor (total dick head) got shot in the face with bird shot at close range arguing over a pheasant and walked out of the woods and drove himself to the ER. Have you ever shot a turkey or smaller bird and discovered how many pellets didn't penetrate the layers of wing feathers and reach the body? I have.

3" shells can add more time to the follow up shot over 2 3/4. This could might make your follow up shot less accurate. I know adrenaline.

20g vs. 12g isn't going to mean **** at 25' if your POI is where it should be.

You still have to AIM a shotgun and squeeze the trigger. Trigger control and sight alignment are ALWAYS important. See Training, Training, Training.

Pumping a shotgun isn't a bet I am going to place my life on. Have one chambered, avoid the pumping sound to give away your tactical element of surprise which is a HUGE advantage in YOUR home. fugg giving them warning. When the PD shows up it is your word versus the perp who most likely has a long criminal history. You are protecting your family and weren't the who caused this to happen.

Believe me, I TOTALLY agree with you. And that may protect you from criminal liability. But they can still try to sue you in civil court. I personally think its BS, and that we should live in a society where criminal and civil liability is placed on the shoulders of the criminal, and the criminal ONLY.

AR's

I love my AR's with the right ammo.

Soft points, HP's, OTM / Open Tip Match - Good. FMJ - not so much. You want to dump all that energy in the first 12" of meat and have multiple wound cavities. Air in, Blood out is good.

Something to seriously consider in our state that bans Flash Suppressors. If you have ever fired you AR or any firearm at night, I mean complete darkness, you get one helluva blast of light and your vision will be changed. Because we live in NJ, most of our ranges do not afford us the opportunity to shoot in complete darkness. My AR muzzles have a break on them compared to my other team members in free states that have flash hiders. The flash signature was insanely different. When I used standard govt contract / surplus / Wolf ammo the flash was big. TAP rounds had significantly less flash then all the rest. All my chambered HD ammo is TAP HP's.

 

Pistol

Use what you can hit with. If it is worth shooting once, Go NYPD and put a few in them. Too many horror stories of guy's thinking I hit them twice, I'm safe.

 

Stat's I learned during my training at Ft Dix with the FBI over the recent couple of years.

Even experience Cops who are considered excellent shots go from 90% efficiency down to 20% in stress fires. In the simulator, my hit ration was closer to 45%. So if you don't train often and hard, what is you hit ratio going to be? 5-10% if you are lucky. To all of you that think I am joking, spend some money with Chris Fry who supports this site and see for yourself.

Depending on whose stat's you use you can expect more then one assailant between 50 to 70% of the time. Make you are always ready for 1 more bad guy to appear. Share the love, make sure you give them some to. No witness are good witnesses.

 

Flashlights

Why the hell hasn't anyone addressed lighting? (Note to self...because it is about ammo you a-hole)

 

You need to have a good light and know how to use the right techniques with a flashlight. The overwhelming majority of shootings happen in reduced visibility settings. Wouldn't it make sense to have a good one and more importantly know how to use it? If you round a corner and blind the squat out of your attacker, he can't see what he is shooting at, but you sure the hell can.

 

Shoot and move. Once you shoot, move your position. When they return fire, they are going to aim at your last known position. Even a few feet makes a big difference.

 

Stop comparing who's is bigger and focus on who uses theirs more and is better trained. Training is where it is at. Not arm chair speculations.

 

Okay, I think I am done. :thsmiley_deadhorse: Before you start slamming me, you better be prepared to back it up with training and facts...because I will post pdf's if I have to.

 

If you ever want to play with some Blue Guns and flashlights, let's meet someplace and have some fun. I'm serious on this one.

 

FWIW - I've killed deer with 223 62g Wolf FMJ, 12 gauge slugs, 308's(125, 150, 165), 30-30's and 50 cal Blackpowder. All dead single shot. What did they all have in common? Shot placement.

Very good post!! Lots of great general information.

 

As for the blue guns......what exactly did you have in mind??

[tepes 0]

Very good post!! Lots of great general information.

 

As for the blue guns......what exactly did you have in mind??

 

 

can not answer for him, but our training guns are blue just a guess

[vjf915 456]

Oh I know, I was asking what kind of "fun" he was referring to. Any kind of experience is useful, so Im very curious/interested.

[Wojo 98]

Blue Guns (colored training replica, sometimes Red/Yellow). Not that Nordic climate manly-man special 'sword' fighting for sure.

 

Depending on where, I guess Air soft or any Paint-spitter-thing-a-mob that is real size could be used. I have no idea on the legality of these things. Indoors would be better as to avoid citizens taking cover and making the host PD, poop a brick when the call comes in of, " armed guys in the park hiding behind things yelling "you're dead" with flashlights".

 

Anyone got a warehouse, industrial area that we can make pitch black by shutting off all the lights? Could be loading docks rail yard, dumpsters work etc. Nothing to large of an area, but something the we can have several guys working one on one training. The ideas is learn by the examples provided and then let people work with each other. Doesn't take long. It also will help to see other lights and how they function.

 

One demo I will shows a comparison from a Coast Brand lite from Lowes, that has a beam better then my SureFire for a fifth of the price. But the SureFire has a better switch. This type of comparison is good for you to know if your money matters. Your needs and wants, should lean towards what can you buy today, while you save up for the Luke Skywalker, SEAL / Spec Ops approved flash-stick. Function over tacti-cool. Simple is good.

 

Don't have one yet? Come along and try a few out and see what your options are.

 

If you got ones with the Strobe feature, please bring them. They are an awesome addition to tools to gain the advantage on a perp.

 

I could show a few of the techniques used by different professionals and see what works for YOU. We would do patterning of you light at a couple of distances, one hand operations. Focus on a particular style or two that fits your weapon, your comfort / dexterity and that you can remember. Bring a digital Crackberry / Phone so you can have someone take your picture while you in proper position for future use. Simple stuff.

 

Plan on being intentionally blinded to learn how long it takes after that to regain enough vision to reacquire target and use of your sights. And how to reduce that time.

Common pitfalls that will give up your position and become a bullet magnet

Illustrate how power of a tool a good light is. Learn that too much light is as bad as not enough. Switch exercises.

Role play to experience perspectives from Good guy and BG. (Role play - to assume the role of another for training purposes, not pitching and catcher games)

 

You find the place and we can have some 'fun'. Fun - meaning I enjoy training. Not fun in that 'funny' way.

 

No loaded firearms. Safety will be paramount. Eye protection. No ears, sense of humor a must. Since there isn't any firearms allowed, amber beverages at a nearby establishment might in order. No flashlight gun fights please.

[Krdshrk 3,877]

If you want to do it Airsoft style, let me know. There are 2 indoor "CQB" places here in NJ - one is in Flemington and the other is in Ewing. Both we can turn off or down the lights. I have enough airsoft guns (including pistols) for play and loaners, and I'm sure there are rentals as well.

[Wojo 98]

Thank you for that suggestion.

 

We really don't need the added expense of having to rent a facility to do this. And I'd imagine we would only need a couple of training aids to make it work fast. If we only had two flashlights and one Blue Gun, it would just take longer for everyone to get a try and play around with different techniques. Plus, I kinda have a phobia about many of the Airsoft Commando's. Going into one of the hives might give me the heebie-jeebies.

[Krdshrk 3,877]

It's not so much renting the place as going in and playing. One of the 2 fields (Flemington) I wouldn't recommend because it's mostly kids going to wail away full auto at their friends. The other one is run by a respected member of the Airsoft community and is more than "airsoft commandos". It's much better when you play with more mature, professional guys.

[Wojo 98]

It's not so much renting the place as going in and playing. One of the 2 fields (Flemington) I wouldn't recommend because it's mostly kids going to wail away full auto at their friends. The other one is run by a respected member of the Airsoft community and is more than "airsoft commandos". It's much better when you play with more mature, professional guys.

 

My goal on this is to train a small group of people correctly and quickly. Having fun while you are training is waaay different then playing. I play games, but, I train for lethal encounters.

[Krdshrk 3,877]

I gotcha. The place in Ewing is more than willing to work with us for training if need be. I just have to talk to the owner. it's no big deal.

[Shane45 807]

I have access to a couple blue guns and a blue rifle.

[Caine 147]

I also have a couple blue guns and a handful of different lights (weapon mounted and hand held) that we could use.