Remington 700 on CNBC

[djg0770 481]

Do the recall.

 

You can't recall stupidity.

[Regulator72 80]

ok, just played with my Remington 700 VS circa 2001 ish. No way I could get it to discharge even when trying hard to get the safety switch to stay between fire and safe.

 

I believe your test is faulty Maks, I don't see where you had it pointed at a friend??

[kenw 293]

I believe your test is faulty Maks, I don't see where you had it pointed at a friend??

He couldn't find a volunteer. Nobody is that good a friend.

[Wolfy 51]

It kills me to admit it but CNBC has a point. I was skeptical until they interviewed the engineer that designed it and he said that Remington knew from the beginning about this problem and did not do a redesign of the trigger for over 60 yrs. Yes I agree about the safe handling but look at the boy that was killed he was supposed to be behind his mom but moved at the last moment. Or if your are in a blind you don't have much room to maneuver. I guess I am lucky I have 2 and they both have the Xmark trigger.

[Tom-NJ2AS 31]

It kills me to admit it but CNBC has a point. I was skeptical until they interviewed the engineer that designed it and he said that Remington knew from the beginning about this problem and did not do a redesign of the trigger for over 60 yrs. Yes I agree about the safe handling but look at the boy that was killed he was supposed to be behind his mom but moved at the last moment. Or if your are in a blind you don't have much room to maneuver. I guess I am lucky I have 2 and they both have the Xmark trigger.

 

 

Wolfy, you are right on about them knowing. The guy even said he was going to get in trouble for saying that!

[Guest megaman]

I saw it last night, That looks scary. The troops were testing it, and it went off when the guy just touched the bolt!

[henrym 19]

Not to excuse Remingotn's actions... BUT in the simplest way of thinking a safety is merely a mechanical device and like all other mechanical devices, there is a distinct possibility of failure. There is no substitute for muzzle control.

[Parker 213]

Anyone who has removed the sealer on a 700's trigger housing to start tuning the adjustment screws knows that once you start fiddling with things, you venture into unknown territory and you're at risk. That little window to inspect sear engagement is obviously there for a reason, and so are those adjustment screws. But that is not always a reliable measure based upon the design, which has/had its flaws. I've seen out of the box Brown Precision custom rifles fire upon closing the bolt using a "tweaked" 700 trigger. Reduce tolerances and dance in the >2.5# trigger pull range, then you better be observant and cognizant of your muzzle. Savvy 700 shooters who tinker have been aware of this inherent weakness for years. I like my Win. M70 and Browning FN Supreme actions along with their triggers; bolt actions which I prefer and believe are also superior in safety design, but that has not prevented me from owning a 700. Remington's easier-to-bed round bottom action, accurate barrel, short lock-time and good factory trigger have made the 721/722/700 a sales phenomenon. And, they have been relatively inexpensive over the years making ownership within reach to anyone.

 

Those who prefer a true firing pin lock might upgrade their 700's to something like this:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=314107

 

While the CNBC show profiled some tragic and heartbreaking cases, it also reinforced and exposed the obvious: Guns are dangerous and should always be treated with respect.

 

I wonder how many inadvertent discharges were attributed to the old Winny M94, an old rifle design with no external safety other than the exposed hammer and half-cock notch? There are millions of those out there. Bet there's a story there but I won't give them any ideas.

[stever 16]

So did the media say that the bolt action remington 700 auto assault rifle was the choice of criminals and terrorists yet..was it just BDL's or ADL's too?

 

seriously though, I've had five rem 700's through the years and never had a problem..but I never played home gunsmith with the trigger group.

[Maksim 1,504]

What you dont see is how the people in the videos messed with the safety mechanism before they showed the video. Furthermore... if you adjust the trigger to an unsafe level, nothing is going to stop it. If you breathe on it, it will go off.

 

If any of those people practiced safe firearms handling, NONE of it would happen. This is like the new Volvo safety system... where the car breaks for you if you dont.... if the breaking system doesnt work... whose fault is it? the cars? or yours for not paying attention?

[vjf915 456]

This is what I have been saying since 20 minutes into the program.........

[kenw 293]

What you dont see is how the people in the videos messed with the safety mechanism before they showed the video. Furthermore... if you adjust the trigger to an unsafe level, nothing is going to stop it. If you breathe on it, it will go off.

 

If any of those people practiced safe firearms handling, NONE of it would happen. This is like the new Volvo safety system... where the car breaks for you if you dont.... if the breaking system doesnt work... whose fault is it? the cars? or yours for not paying attention?

The answer should be obvious, but it isn't. Personal responsibility doesn't mean the same thing as it once did .

 

I heard on the news last night that one of the bigger stroller companies is recalling some ungodly number of strollers because there's a chance of strangulation when the restraining straps are used improperly. I actually had to listen for the news cycle to repeat, but yeah, it's now the responsibility of the manufacturer to engineer against the possibility of misuse and stupidity. With that in mind, the very first time the Volvo system fails, someone's gonna see a payday, even if they were asleep behind the wheel.

 

it's always the fault of the big, bad company.

 

I didn't watch the Remington piece, but if someone got on and said that the company knew about the engineering defect, and that the gun could fire spontaneously if a user removed the safety, turned the trigger down to 2 ounce pull and banged it on the ground repeatedly, someone's head is gonna roll, and the suits will start pouring in. Buy your Remys now, boys, while you still can.

[Wolfy 51]

The consensus is know your target but if you are a sniper and have to place your shot in a specific place or hit a friendly the gun could accidently discharge before you are on target and hit the friendly. The 700 is the #1 choice for LE agencies and ther military so I would think it is of a concern.

[vladtepes 1,060]

The answer should be obvious, but it isn't. Personal responsibility doesn't mean the same thing as it once did .

 

I heard on the news last night that one of the bigger stroller companies is recalling some ungodly number of strollers because there's a chance of strangulation when the restraining straps are used improperly. I actually had to listen for the news cycle to repeat, but yeah, it's now the responsibility of the manufacturer to engineer against the possibility of misuse and stupidity. With that in mind, the very first time the Volvo system fails, someone's gonna see a payday, even if they were asleep behind the wheel.

 

it's always the fault of the big, bad company.

 

I didn't watch the Remington piece, but if someone got on and said that the company knew about the engineering defect, and that the gun could fire spontaneously if a user removed the safety, turned the trigger down to 2 ounce pull and banged it on the ground repeatedly, someone's head is gonna roll, and the suits will start pouring in. Buy your Remys now, boys, while you still can.

 

you can buy the one I was going to buy...

 

while at the end of the day it IS the end users responsibility to control the firearm.. I do not want to own a firearm that may malfunction in such a way.. I am not some kind of military operator.. or some LE specialist.. but the guns I own have to be reliable and predictable number one.. no.. I don't point guns at people ever... but you can drop a gun.. things do happen.. and when that gun is on safety.. it better not fire..

 

they stated that the FCG in conjunction with the safety system was not good.. this was an actual remington technician..

they stated that a long time ago the system could have been addressed at less than $0.50 a gun..

they stated that Remington later went on to offer the fix for $20.00 (i think was the amount) per gun (so obviously they are aware of some issues)...

 

this is not a company I will put faith in... as stated at the end of the day the operator of the weapon must control it.. and be safe.. but that is similar to saying a driver must be safe.. but if all of the sudden pushing the brakes made the car get more gas.. that would be an accident I would not blame on the operator.. a safety that causes a round to be fired is IMO a very similar problem.. it is the safety after all not the trigger..

[Maksim 1,504]

I saw the original 1974 document... and it is not as what CNBC made it sound like....

 

They spelled out what had to happen to have it malfunction.... and if you have a remington 700, try to do this with your safety switch, you will see how hard it is to manipulate it in such a way.... (make sure it is empty).

 

After having the selector on Fire, you had to place it in between Safe and Fire, then pull the trigger, and then place the switch on safe, at which point it would discharge.

 

So you have to be doing it on purpose.

 

The other known instances are with having a very very very light trigger, upon slamming the bolt shut, it would discharge from the distribution of force from the bolt slamming in, to transferring to the light trigger (beyond safe).

[crackaloon 15]

I saw the original 1974 document... and it is not as what CNBC made it sound like....

 

They spelled out what had to happen to have it malfunction.... and if you have a remington 700, try to do this with your safety switch, you will see how hard it is to manipulate it in such a way.... (make sure it is empty).

 

After having the selector on Fire, you had to place it in between Safe and Fire, then pull the trigger, and then place the switch on safe, at which point it would discharge.

 

So you have to be doing it on purpose.

 

The other known instances are with having a very very very light trigger, upon slamming the bolt shut, it would discharge from the distribution of force from the bolt slamming in, to transferring to the light trigger (beyond safe).

I'm going to have to disagree here. If you, for any reason, have something that makes that safety stick a little it would be possible to (while for instance looking through a scope) think you put the selector to fire. Then pull the trigger and nothing happens. Then, thinking you are being safe you flip it to safe. That gun can go off without touching the trigger. Even if you change the order around, it's conceivable, and perhaps even more likely that you'll have this happen the more comfortable you are with that weapon. Anyone could argue that it's proper to think the weapon should always be pointed in the proper direction. I would say that it should be a more positive safe when you purposely switch it to safe. I don't think everyone should just dump their 700's because of this defect, and yes it's a defect, but they should pay very close attention with the knowledge that it is possible that safe is more unsafe than usual with this particular trigger group.

[Maksim 1,504]

I'm going to have to disagree here. If you, for any reason, have something that makes that safety stick a little it would be possible to (while for instance looking through a scope) think you put the selector to fire. Then pull the trigger and nothing happens. Then, thinking you are being safe you flip it to safe. That gun can go off without touching the trigger. Even if you change the order around, it's conceivable, and perhaps even more likely that you'll have this happen the more comfortable you are with that weapon. Anyone could argue that it's proper to think the weapon should always be pointed in the proper direction. I would say that it should be a more positive safe when you purposely switch it to safe. I don't think everyone should just dump their 700's because of this defect, and yes it's a defect, but they should pay very close attention with the knowledge that it is possible that safe is more unsafe than usual with this particular trigger group.

 

 

It took me 5 tries to get it to stay between the two... and I had to use both hands to manipulate it that way. Even in doing so, the gun would not malfunction. In all cases of properly tuned guns, the gun is safe. If your trigger is adjusted so that it misfires if you look at it wrong... it is your issue, not the gun. Yes, the safety design is not the best.... but ultimately, the responsibility is on the user, NOT THE GUN.

 

The Gun did not load a round into it self, the gun did not point itself in an unsafe direction, the gun did not adjust itself down to .5 lbs. It is ultimately unsafe gun handling that caused those injuries.

 

Remington has a fix for it, you can send it in to get trigger replaced if you want it to.... but the gun is not unsafe.

 

Besides, the so called "expert" is on camera... holding a gun with a bolt closed, with his finger on the trigger. More accidents happen that way than any other way?

 

Should all AR's be recalled because they can cook off rounds if hot enough? Should some shotguns be recalled because they can discharge if dropped with force on the ground? Any machine is prone to malfunction, especially if you tinker with it. The issues with the 700's have been known as long as firearms forums have been around. It was an accepted fact..... now some CNBC reporter that may have a hard on for Remington that wants his few mins of fame decides to do a biased show, with leading and coached questions, with heavily edited quotes, and everyone trusts it as word of god.

 

 

Link http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/records.pdf

[Maksim 1,504]

Btw, you do have an option if you feel your gun is unsafe.... SELL IT! I would be more than happy to take those unsafe firearms off of your hands.

[Maksim 1,504]

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/10/21/my-take-on-remington-under-fire/

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yINEnpjHvlk

[kenw 293]

I got this from Meltzer's.

 

Remington's published statement

 

Dear Valued Customer,

 

On Wednesday October 20th, CNBC aired a story regarding the Remington Model 700. We provided CNBC with a lot of factual information and background materials, but the story was based on unproven allegations from trial lawyers. We are disappointed with the inaccuracies that dominated the program. The Remington Model 700 is the most popular and trusted bolt-action rifle in the world, with over 5 million rifles produced and billions of rounds fired since 1962. As always, we strongly urge everyone to practice the Ten Commandments of Firearm Safety. You can visit www.Remington700.tv and view our response to CNBC's biased program. Log on to the site often and encourage all of your friends to visit the site, too. We have already received several questions regarding the Model 700 and have included our responses below. If you have any further questions, please feel free to call Customer Services at 1-888-736-4867.

 

 

• Is the gun safe? Is it OK to use the gun?
  All firearms should be properly maintained and adjusted only by a qualified gunsmith. If customers have any concerns about their Remington Model 700, or any firearm, we recommend that they have it inspected by a qualified gunsmith before use.

• Will my gun fire on safe release or upon bolt close?
  Both Remington and experts hired by trial lawyers have conducted testing on guns returned from the field which were claimed to have fired without a trigger pull, and neither has ever been able to duplicate such an event on guns which had been properly maintained and which had not been altered after sale.

• What are the Ten Commandments of Firearm Safety?
  The Ten Commandments of Firearm Safety are the common sense rules of safe gun handling. A printed copy of the Ten Commandments of Firearm Safety are contained in every Remington firearm Owner's Manual. You can also obtain a copy of the Ten Commandments of Firearm Safety on Remington's website.

• Can my customers send their guns for inspection?
  They can send the gun to Remington directly or to any of Remington's Authorized Service Centers.

• Will there be a charge for the inspection?
  If they send the gun to Remington we will inspect it for free; they will only have to pay for shipping. If the gun is out of warranty and the charge is less than $75 then Remington will make the repair and return the gun to them COD. If the charge is greater than $75 then Remington will call the customer for authorization to proceed. If they send the gun to a Remington Authorized Service Center they will have to contact them directly for their service charges.

• Where can I get more information?
  Visit www.Remington700.tv and view our response to CNBC's biased program. Log on to the site often and encourage all of your customers and friends to visit the site, too.

We appreciate your business.

 

 

Scott Blackwell,

Chief Sales Officer

Remington Arms Company, Inc.

[crackaloon 15]

I didn't say it was a good idea to point the rifle in an unsafe direction and I said that I don't think people should sell their 700's.

If I designed it I would call it a design defect. Mr. Walker acknowledged it as a defect in his design. The defect doesn't effect everyone, but it's something the owners of the weapons should be aware of is all. The show is more defective than the design of the trigger group, but it did make a lot of people aware.

Frankly, Remington has acknowledged a potential problem with weapons that are dirty or adjusted improperly. They didn't say "DO THIS" if your weapon doesn't fire when you pull the trigger, obviously because they don't want to set themselves up for lawsuits.

There are some circumstances where a 700 may be pointed at someone who shouldn't be shot at that moment. I think, at minimum, every sniper should be fully aware. Is it procedural? Remington should make a suggestion if that's so. Laying in dirt or sand on a windy day, does that bring on the possiblity of a problem? I don't know, but I'm sure Remington knows exactly how much dirt or how much adjustment error it takes to bring on a problem...or they should after 50 years.

[average joe 5]

When did the x-mark trigger go into production ?

[Maksim 1,504]

When did the x-mark trigger go into production ?

 

In the past few years, however both are in production. Your rifle will say if it is an Xmark or not.

[JimmyAGR 54]

I didn't say it was a good idea to point the rifle in an unsafe direction and I said that I don't think people should sell their 700's.

If I designed it I would call it a design defect. Mr. Walker acknowledged it as a defect in his design. The defect doesn't effect everyone, but it's something the owners of the weapons should be aware of is all. The show is more defective than the design of the trigger group, but it did make a lot of people aware.

Frankly, Remington has acknowledged a potential problem with weapons that are dirty or adjusted improperly. They didn't say "DO THIS" if your weapon doesn't fire when you pull the trigger, obviously because they don't want to set themselves up for lawsuits.

There are some circumstances where a 700 may be pointed at someone who shouldn't be shot at that moment. I think, at minimum, every sniper should be fully aware. Is it procedural? Remington should make a suggestion if that's so. Laying in dirt or sand on a windy day, does that bring on the possiblity of a problem? I don't know, but I'm sure Remington knows exactly how much dirt or how much adjustment error it takes to bring on a problem...or they should after 50 years.

 

If it is a design defect as Mr. Walker stated then how could it not affect everyone? Was it one in a hundred? One in a million? Not trying to bust on this but if it is a design issue wouldn't it effect all of the 700's? How couldn the defect onlyy effect hundreds out of millions?

[Maksim 1,504]

If it is a design defect as Mr. Walker stated then how could it not affect everyone? Was it one in a hundred? One in a million? Not trying to bust on this but if it is a design issue wouldn't it effect all of the 700's? How couldn the defect onlyy effect hundreds out of millions?

 

 

It is not a design defect.... a defect means it doesnt work under normal circumstances. His design is just not the most ideal. 125 incidents out of the 5 million rifles sold... is not bad. If this was truly a design defect, we would see more lawsuits. In any case... none of the "expert witnesses" could reproduce it under oath.

[crackaloon 15]

If it is a design defect as Mr. Walker stated then how could it not affect everyone? Was it one in a hundred? One in a million? Not trying to bust on this but if it is a design issue wouldn't it effect all of the 700's? How couldn the defect onlyy effect hundreds out of millions?

If they are properly maintained (detail not included) and not altered after sale (which is fairly common), or according to someone on that show, if it left the factory improperly adjusted. It's clear Mr. Walker brought it up in early memos and suggested a change to his own design.

A defect in design doesn't mean it's a bad design, it only means that people are not perfect. A successful design can be that way including defects. It's clear the walker trigger group is a good design by accuracy and feel standards, it just happens to have a weak point. Some people think that weak point is more important than others.

I'm sure considerations were totally scrapping the design, redesigning to prevent adjustment out of specification, and apparently Mr. Walker's own suggestion of additional parts, among others. Remington went with an extra 100% inspection step in manufacture, which is tough to maintain over 50 years and 5M rifles.

What are the chances someone could get hurt? Some would divide the 5 million guns by the number of injuries. Where Remington would much prefer to say it's by the number of people hurt by properly maintained and unaltered weapons.

[tbtrout 141]

This has been going on for a while, but as the 2A is making a comeback in America, the Antis look for anything to demonize guns. Is there a problem with a mechanical device, Yes. Is it a rampant problem present in every 700, No. Can someone set up anything to fail for a story, Yes. I expect to see more stories like this.

 

And as written already, there are lots of Kitchen Table Gunsmiths who have never met a gun that did not need some tweeking.

 

If anyone does not feel safe, I am looking for a Rem700 in 223 if you want to sell it.

 

There is no substitute for Personal Responsability in firearms safety.

[Wolfy 51]

Tim I will give you mine.

[bry@n 195]

I'm looking for one in .308, prefferably a police model if anybody feels like giving up there's

[Caine 147]

If anyone does not feel safe, I am looking for a Rem700 in 223 if you want to sell it.

 

Tim I will give you mine.

I call dibs if Tim doesn't want it