Citizen fights back, tells TSA "don't touch it"

[CageFighter 236]

Lets take a page out of Isreal's playbook! they got to be doing something RIGHT! is it their profiling? i have yet to see an Isreali guy fondling the nuts of a Rabbi like the American TSA lady groping a nun! -question....when was the last time an Isreali commercial plane went down by a MUSLIM EXTREMIST?? -racial profiling WORKS!

[PeteF 1,044]

If you choose to subject yourself to it.. it is not violating your rights.. I still agree with you that it is a bunch of BS.. just don't agree that it is a violation of your rights.. as I was saying several pages back..

 

Yeah choosing to subject yourself to it is like the Saw movies. You can either cut off your foot or have a knife stuck through your eye.

 

When you have to be in Ca tomorrow for a meeting or your business goes under and you can't feed your family, what choice do you have but to fly.

 

I know of very few people who fly for the fun of it.

[kenw 293]

Lets take a page out of Isreal's playbook! they got to be doing something RIGHT! is it their profiling? i have yet to see an Isreali guy fondling the nuts of a Rabbi like the American TSA lady groping a nun! -question....when was the last time an Isreali commercial plane went down by a MUSLIM EXTREMIST?? -racial profiling WORKS!

It does, but it's not what we do. I think we're at a crossroads as a nation. We desperately want to live up to our mandate of being a trusting and honorable people, and when that trust is turned against us, we have no history to look back on for guidance. We look for answers that only minimally compromise our ideals, and find ourselves groping in the dark for a solution.

 

The same situation with the WBC. We've fought and died to ensure the very freedoms they flaunt with their hatred. Do we deny them their freedoms just because we find their message abhorrent? Or do we give them their 15 minutes and let them fade away into irrelevance? As a morally tolerant society, are we to draw a line at a point where we no longer tolerate intolerance, or trust in human nature that people will eventually come to their senses.

 

The world is becoming a fractured and polarized place, and our mission of freedom and equality is constantly being tested. Ensuring equality for all is harder than ever, since some groups believe that they can only be equal at the expense of some other group.

 

I don't know where it's going to end, or which direction is the right one.

[vladtepes 1,060]

It's NOT a choice, because there are places where you are FORCED to fly. Overseas, Puerto Rico, anyplace else that is more than a few hours drive if you NEED to get there and dont have days to spend.

 

It's either a fundamental right or it isnt. Going by what you posted above, you CHOOSE in this state to own a firearm, therefore any paperwork, wait times, hoops to jump through are Ok with you, since after all, you are VOLUNTARILY subjecting yourself to that scrutiny.........right?

 

 

your reaction is because it's new and you are not used to it.. thinking 60 years ago that the government would force you to wear a seatbelt was an absurdity at best.. again.. to point out that liking 2a to free travel is a moot point.. 2a specifically says shall not be infringed.. it is clear in very clear language.. the right to "free travel" I am going to go out on a limb and say not such clear language.. feel free to correct me though as I am certainly not a constitutional lawyer.. maybe post the exact amendment that says you have a right to freely travel wherever you want and that right must not be infringed on in any conceivable way.. and yeah I might agree.. you can get anywhere in the world without a plane.. this is a fact.. it may not be convenient but that is the trade off for flying in a plane.. look.. as stated a million times.. I think the TSA is a joke.. I think it should be revamped.. I am just not a fan of crying "rights infringement" when it really has nothing to do with "rights".. they shouldn't do full body scanning because it may be harmful.. they are likely ridiculously expensive.. there are viable reasons to complain.. the "right to free travel" I don't see as being one of them..

[vladtepes 1,060]

It does, but it's not what we do. I think we're at a crossroads as a nation. We desperately want to live up to our mandate of being a trusting and honorable people, and when that trust is turned against us, we have no history to look back on for guidance. We look for answers that only minimally compromise our ideals, and find ourselves groping in the dark for a solution.

 

The same situation with the WBC. We've fought and died to ensure the very freedoms they flaunt with their hatred. Do we deny them their freedoms just because we find their message abhorrent? Or do we give them their 15 minutes and let them fade away into irrelevance? As a morally tolerant society, are we to draw a line at a point where we no longer tolerate intolerance, or trust in human nature that people will eventually come to their senses.

 

The world is becoming a fractured and polarized place, and our mission of freedom and equality is constantly being tested. Ensuring equality for all is harder than ever, since some groups believe that they can only be equal at the expense of some other group.

 

I don't know where it's going to end, or which direction is the right one.

 

racially profiling IMO is a %100 logical practice.. If I was standing on a street corner.. and there have been reports of a tall Italian Irish man robbing people... and the cops stopped me because I was a tall Irish Italian person.. I would not cry a river over it.. I would allow them to ask a couple simple questions and be on my way.. do I think that we should violate the rights of people simply for being "Muslim"... no of course not.. but we should also not ignore logic.. we are worried that some Muslims may attack us on planes at some point... so it is probably logical to assume that my girlfriends middle age white mother is not a terrorist.. so don't waste the resources looking where you are not going to find anything...

[shazbot 3]

Didn't see this posted, it looks like 'NJ lawmakers' (who and how many?) are speaking out against the scanners too.

[kenw 293]

Sure it's logical, but again, it goes against our teachings as a fair and equitable society. I didn't say e we were doing it right, just that we're looking for an answer.

[vladtepes 1,060]

the biggest problem I have with this entire thread.. is that we so liberally throw around the word "rights"

 

tell me TSA sucks.. tell me they are ridiculous and need to be revamped from the ground up.. and I will without question agree..

 

tell me your rights are being violated.. and I lose interest... because no one has yet made a genuine argument about how your rights are being violated by choosing to get on a plane..

 

I get groped going into a concert that has a security checkpoint..

I have to go through metal detectors when I go to 6 flags..

I am required to submit tons of documents and personal info just to drive my car..

 

your "right" to "free travel" is infringed every day..

 

this whole scanner nonsense is just that.. nonsense.. hate it.. speak out against it.. but don't tag it with something as important as "rights".. to me that is a strong word.. the law says I have the RIGHT to have a gun.. it says that RIGHT is guaranteed to me.. the law says that right can not be infringed in any way.. it is clear cut.. the reality is this guy appears to have an agenda and almost seems as if he went in there to start trouble... I am all for "testing the system" but I am not for all this loopy support for him an a defender of our imaginary right to freely board planes..

[shazbot 3]

racially profiling IMO is a %100 logical practice.. If I was standing on a street corner.. and there have been reports of a tall Italian Irish man robbing people... and the cops stopped me because I was a tall Irish Italian person.. I would not cry a river over it.. I would allow them to ask a couple simple questions and be on my way.. do I think that we should violate the rights of people simply for being "Muslim"... no of course not.. but we should also not ignore logic.. we are worried that some Muslims may attack us on planes at some point... so it is probably logical to assume that my girlfriends middle age white mother is not a terrorist.. so don't waste the resources looking where you are not going to find anything...

 

The problem with your example is that it's of a specific known threat. If we had a warning that a person of a specific ethnicity and appearance had a bomb, then yes it's fine to stop anyone who matches that description. But unfortunately with the current state of islamic terrorism, it's not just guys who 'look' muslim. Who would think this guy or this guy would be an islamic terrorist just by looking at them. I think racial profiling for terrorists would lead to a myopic view of the threat, if you're only looking for one thing, it's easy to miss a threat elsewhere.

 

This is an interesting account of how even using fake boarding passes, wearing an Osama Bin Laden T-shirt, having a hezbollah flag and sharp implements won't guarantee you get stopped or even questioned. To me, it's all just security theater. We're always going to be one step behind terrorist attacks. They use shoe-bombs, we check the shoes; they make liquid-bombs, we limit your liquid; they use underwear bombs, we porno-scan you and tickle your taint. I'm just curious how long this goes on until we either realize how crazy it is or become a police state.

 

If we really wanted to make sure nothing got on a plane we didn't want, do a full x-ray, MRI, (or whatever) scan/strip search, anything other than that and we have to accept a level of risk. We just need to agree on what that level is, which is obviously the tough part.

[vladtepes 1,060]

The problem with your example is that it's of a specific known threat. If we had a warning that a person of a specific ethnicity and appearance had a bomb, then yes it's fine to stop anyone who matches that description. But unfortunately with the current state of islamic terrorism, it's not just guys who 'look' muslim. Who would think this guy or this guy would be an islamic terrorist just by looking at them. I think racial profiling for terrorists would lead to a myopic view of the threat, if you're only looking for one thing, it's easy to miss a threat elsewhere.

 

This is an interesting account of how even using fake boarding passes, wearing an Osama Bin Laden T-shirt, having a hezbollah flag and sharp implements won't guarantee you get stopped or even questioned. To me, it's all just security theater. We're always going to be one step behind terrorist attacks. They use shoe-bombs, we check the shoes; they make liquid-bombs, we limit your liquid; they use underwear bombs, we porno-scan you and tickle your taint. I'm just curious how long this goes on until we either realize how crazy it is or become a police state.

 

If we really wanted to make sure nothing got on a plane we didn't want, do a full x-ray, MRI, (or whatever) scan/strip search, anything other than that and we have to accept a level of risk. We just need to agree on what that level is, which is obviously the tough part.

 

for what it is worth I agree with everything you say.. unfortunately sources are limited.. so when given the chance to do "additional screening" to the 15 year old kid getting on the plane with his family... OR someone who fits the mold more closely.. who would you rather screen..

 

to be clear as I said before.. NOT all Muslims are bad.. I get that.. there is no question.. I just think it is ridiculous to investigate all people equally when at times it is painfully obvious the individual is not a threat.. "what if crazy terrorist kidnap your typical cleaver family.. and tells ward that unless he wears this jock strap bomb and blows up the plane his whole family will die.." yeah.. well I guess that time might get by and cause a problem.. but generally speaking I would think that others might fit the "profile" better.. obviously it is not going to be a "cartoon" style "Muslim" with a giant blinking red shirt that says "I'm a terrorist"..

[bbk 188]

I don't get how or why people compare apples to oranges in terms of threats. Comparing a child or senior to the mold of late teens/early 20s to 50s, usually male are two different worlds. That is a profile that makes sense and also does not create tunnel vision. Narrowing that to the point where our security measures ONLY target East Africans, Southwest Asians, Persians, Southeast Asians, and South Asians-- or anybody from France or the Netherlands that has a traditional Islamic last name is ridiculous because as stated Muslims are not the only ones who want to and have committed atrocities for political gain in the history of our recent society.

 

I find it horrifying with how short-sighted people are with security threats. Yes, terrorism is a very personal and terrible action. But in this neo-colonialist world, does it really cause instability? The new governments the western powers have put in Iraq and Afghanistan will probably fail the people just as the powers before them (if not worse)-- but due to modernity, it'll either have more money and blood thrown at it until its fixed or until everyone forgets it ever happened (ever hear of the Hmong and their story?). I'm proud of what I have done when in the military, and I support my military-- but I could give a damn about the politics, instead finding it quite enraging. Terrorism has gripped our hearts and minds to the extent of changing the very fabric of our lives to accommodate for such fears. Did something have to be done to curb the rising tide of terrorism in the early 21st century? Yes; but at what cost? I fear its too late to turn back, and this is the consequences of our decisions, with only more to come.

 

Note, again, I'm not saying the western powers were wrong in what they've done at all. What's happened has happened, and couldn't have happened any other way. But I won't let ignorance blind me from the reality of the situation. I'm not going to let me patriotism let me forget what has happened in the recent history (dating back to the 18th century), nor what has happened to empires of the past. The end of our empire's way of life doesn't scare me, its inevitable-- what scares me is what our empire is willing to do to stay on top. And as bad as we make it for others; its just a matter of time until they turn on their own subjects. I'm not saying to rise up, ha, no-- I'm not the one to fan flames. Its inevitable, and hopefully I'll be dust and bones before I see those days because its a train I fear there is no stopping. Just food for thought-- and its fine to disagree because that's the beauty of being a FREE society.

[CageFighter 236]

 

I get groped going into a concert that has a security checkpoint..

 

I've been patted down, etc. Nobody touched my johnson doing it, and it aint starting now.

again, "DONT TOUCH MY JUNK!"

[djg0770 481]

Rights or not - no man is touching my privates.

[Jon 264]

Rights or not - no man is touching my privates.

 

When was your last physical?

[tbtrout 141]

When was your last physical?

HA HA, my frst thought as well.

[djg0770 481]

HA HA, my frst thought as well.

 

Female doc...

[PeteF 1,044]

this whole scanner nonsense is just that.. nonsense.. hate it.. speak out against it.. but don't tag it with something as important as "rights".. to me that is a strong word.. the law says I have the RIGHT to have a gun.. it says that RIGHT is guaranteed to me.. the law says that right can not be infringed in any way.. it is clear cut.. the reality is this guy appears to have an agenda and almost seems as if he went in there to start trouble... I am all for "testing the system" but I am not for all this loopy support for him an a defender of our imaginary right to freely board planes..

 

The law says I have the RIGHT to not be searched without reasonable suspicion of wrong doing (check that pesky 4th amendment).

 

Since the TSA is a GOVERNMENT agency the GOVERNMENT is requiring an ILLEGAL search to board a PRIVATE

plane. See the difference? If the airlines had control over security then you have a free market where you can decide which level of security and the airline with the "Correct" level would be the one with the most passengers. Other airlines would then follow that example to maintain business. But since the TSA has a monopoly on airline security, the appointed TSA chief can just arbitrarily come up with new restrictions at any time. (ala Putting a chapstick in the scanner tray is a no go but if its in a QUART size baggy then its ok. If you put the same chapstick in a Gallon baggy because thats a no go.)

 

Yeah the guy had an agenda, so what. He just got widespread coverage of TSA abuses.

[Krdshrk 3,878]

Here's a good article:

http://gizmodo.com/5692198/a-tsa-success-story

[vladtepes 1,060]

The law says I have the RIGHT to not be searched without reasonable suspicion of wrong doing (check that pesky 4th amendment).

 

Since the TSA is a GOVERNMENT agency the GOVERNMENT is requiring an ILLEGAL search to board a PRIVATE

plane. See the difference? If the airlines had control over security then you have a free market where you can decide which level of security and the airline with the "Correct" level would be the one with the most passengers. Other airlines would then follow that example to maintain business. But since the TSA has a monopoly on airline security, the appointed TSA chief can just arbitrarily come up with new restrictions at any time. (ala Putting a chapstick in the scanner tray is a no go but if its in a QUART size baggy then its ok. If you put the same chapstick in a Gallon baggy because thats a no go.)

 

Yeah the guy had an agenda, so what. He just got widespread coverage of TSA abuses.

 

Again.. you choose to fly.. you are voluntarily subjecting yourself to the search.. no one is making you.. you are doing it under your own power.. you are choosing to do so..

 

again.. agree to disagree.. some people are going to see it one way.. and others are going to see it another..

 

as I have said time and time again.. the TSA blows.. complain about it.. have them changed.. but I just don't see a "rights" violation..

 

there are many place I go where I am searched... metal detected.. groped.. my girlfriends purse run through.. these things are common at security checkpoints.. and as long as you choose to want to get to what is on the other side.. then you agree to subjecting yourself to the scanner..

 

take all this energy and rage and apply it to 2A... where NJ continuously on a daily basis violates your rights.. DAILY..

[CageFighter 236]

When was your last physical?

 

its done by a DOCTOR, not the gov't!

[NJ609 22]

As a governmental agency the TSA has to answer to the constitution. This is a 4th amendment violation as clear as day. This has absolutely nothing to do with purchasing a ticket, or your contract with the airlines. Private entities are not involved here.

 

You can't say that just because someone chooses to fly they are a suspect. Not in America.

 

Like you said, people are going to see it different ways for sure.

[vladtepes 1,060]

As a governmental agency the TSA has to answer to the constitution. This is a 4th amendment violation as clear as day. This has absolutely nothing to do with purchasing a ticket, or your contract with the airlines. Private entities are not involved here.

 

You can't say that just because someone chooses to fly they are a suspect. Not in America.

 

Like you said, people are going to see it different ways for sure.

 

 

ok so just to be clear.. if it was a private company you would have 0 issue with it... correct?

[NJ609 22]

ok so just to be clear.. if it was a private company you would have 0 issue with it... correct?

 

Without getting into details of how the markets work, yes I'd accept it and find another "company" to deal with. I would also imagine there would be sexual assault cases flying through the courts because of these things.

 

Since it is the government you do not have any "choice" and have to accept the violations regardless of how unconstitutional they are. What are you going to do? Sue the government? Right, how many people have the funds, time, etc to do that?

[Wojo 98]

I feel the need to bust balls. Maybe I can find a real cheap round trip ticket to someplace and have some fun.

 

I have a body piercing some place that created quite a stir in Costa Rica returning from a surfing trip. I tripped the metal detector and then offered to put the offending item in the basket, but the rest of my body would need to follow it on the conveyor. At some point I asked if it would be alright to call my attorney and they nodded yes. So I asked the next guy in line, my best friend and criminal attorney, what do you think I should do?. He replied to drop my zipper and show them. They waived us thru. It didn't help that our flight out was delayed and we got bombed in the bar before hand.

[vjf915 456]

+1 for a hilarious story.

[BRaptor 68]

I feel the need to bust balls. Maybe I can find a real cheap round trip ticket to someplace and have some fun.

 

I have a body piercing some place that created quite a stir in Costa Rica returning from a surfing trip. I tripped the metal detector and then offered to put the offending item in the basket, but the rest of my body would need to follow it on the conveyor. At some point I asked if it would be alright to call my attorney and they nodded yes. So I asked the next guy in line, my best friend and criminal attorney, what do you think I should do?. He replied to drop my zipper and show them. They waived us thru. It didn't help that our flight out was delayed and we got bombed in the bar before hand.

 

Jetblue is currently offering extremely cheap flights (like $69 round trip) for travel in November and early December. Book a flight, flash your piercing and post results! (no pics of the piercing, please )

[KpdPipes 388]

it is not a 4th amendment violation because no one forces you to board a plane.. you do it on your own free will..

 

if you decide to take the plane and enter into an agreement that you may be subjected to the body scan that is on you...

 

and to be brutal here.. this is the resolution of picture we are really getting all worked up over.. no offense or anything.. but I do not find this image intrusive in any way...

 

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=972_1262283908 THIS shows the actual images...which can be very detailed.

 

I wont respond again to this discussion with you my las word will be the Words of Benjamin Franklin "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

[BRN169 6]

it is not a 4th amendment violation because no one forces you to board a plane.. you do it on your own free will..

 

if you decide to take the plane and enter into an agreement that you may be subjected to the body scan that is on you...

 

and to be brutal here.. this is the resolution of picture we are really getting all worked up over.. no offense or anything.. but I do not find this image intrusive in any way...

 

 

Not really, that was taken by a Gen 2 millimeter wave scanner. The backscatter x-ray systems the TSA is using are capable of displaying images like this:

 

[kenw 293]

The level of detail is a bit more obvious after a simple color inversion in photoshop.

[Caine 147]

The level of detail is a bit more obvious after a simple color inversion in photoshop.

We briefly discussed that picture on here before. I'm not convinced that's an actual airport scanner picture.