Like you and me, but better....v. 2.0

[BRaptor 68]

Essex Country Officials have confirmed that 9 carjackings and 9 shootings took place this weekend in Essex County, most of those were in Newark. Please compare the following stories from this week.

 

The first is from a guy on another forum. He builds/tunes Subarus and is an outgoing, standup guy with an extremely nice car with a lot of expensive equipment on it.

 

The second is about an Essex Country Sherrif's Officer with his Mercedes(?!?!?!).

 

First, the "plebe's' story as he wrote it:

 

--December 15, 2010--

 

Just got home a little while ago and the shock is beginning to dwindle so I figured I'd post up.

 

I had just finished tuning an 07 STI with the exact same setup I have, a really nice car. I went out to the curb and started my car, packed up, and began saying goodbyes.

 

Just as I was about to leave, a silver MY2000 Chrysler Concord sped up to the car. A guy popped out of the back seat rather slow and cocky, took out a gun, and ****'ed one in the chamber.

 

"Im taking your chit" Thats what he said. I briefly looked at him and said its yours bro. He replied, "No Chit"

 

I knew it was 50/50, either he would shoot me and take the car, or just try to scare me and take it.

 

For some reason, I think shock, i wasn't even scared. The only thing I thought about was my fiance Michelle, and that I couldn't go out on her like this, we didnt even start life yet.

 

He got in the car with the gun still out and I just looked at the ground. Call me a puss, but if something was flying my way, I didnt want to see it coming.

 

As I stared at the ground, I knew it was my last time around my suby. I was able to have one last laugh with it when the guy stalled it 4 times in a row, then couldnt find reverse, obviously no where's near a PRO.

 

I lost my 2 laptops with 1.5 years worth of maps/software/ect

I lost my license, my passport

I lost 3 tactrix cables, 1 lm2 wideband, and a power inverter

I lost my cell with over 400 contacts

 

And I lost my brand new paintball bag, with 700 worth of chit as well as 2 gps units.

 

Even though that asshat hit a gold mine, I didn't loose my life.

 

I guess its ok though, he's either gonna die from aids, get shot, or wrap my baby around a tree

 

The carjackers later got into an accident with his car and carjacked the car they rear-ended!!

 

His car was later recovered, stripped of thousands of dollars of parts and a little beat up.

 

 

Now, the officers story from nj.com:

 

December 19, 2010

 

Earlier today, an off-duty Essex County sheriff’s officer shot at one of two suspects who had fired at the officer while trying to his vehicle outside his home in Newark, authorities said.

 

No one was injured, but the officer was taken to Beth Israel Medical Center and treated for high blood pressure and trauma, said Kevin Lynch, a spokesman for the Essex County Sheriff’s Office. The officer, who was not identified, was later released. The two suspects fled in their Jeep and were still at large today. A vehicle matching the general description of the Jeep was used about an hour later in another carjacking, Ambrose said.

 

The two suspects confronted the officer on Ronner Avenue in the Weequahic section around 1 p.m. and tried to steal his vehicle, Ambrose said.

 

One of the suspects fired at the sheriff’s officer, who returned fire, Ambrose said. No one was struck in the exchange of gunfire, he said. The second carjacking Sunday occurred on Ellery Avenue, about three miles from where the earlier incident occurred.

 

 

 

Now, I'm no advocate of vigilantiism, but the first guy was legitimately afraid for his life, he thought/knew he had a 50/50 chance of getting shot and all he could do is stand there and hang his head and wait for some half-wit thug to make the decision for him. Meanwhile, the off-duty police officer has the right to decide for himself whether he is going to comply with the criminal or if the threat/opportunity is such that it warrants other action.

 

I know, I know :thsmiley_deadhorse:

 

 

But, I thought I would share very recent, very nearby happenings as some motivation to continue pushing for CCW in NJ.

[tommy3rd 132]

I thought the sheriff's officer needed more range time and training. Maybe they all should, before given that golden ticket.

[Malsua 1,422]

Even if CCW were legal in NJ, the guy in the first scenario would have been turned into a criminal if he had had and pulled his firearm.

 

Back in 93 when I was working in DC there was a huge spike in Car jackings. Criminals started seeing it and had to get in on the action.

 

It started out strictly in the hood then started moving up into the district, like M and K street. After the fear was at a fever pitch in the media every day for months something changed.

 

What started out as daily car jackings turned into finding thugs dead in the street. It didn't take long for the DC thugs to learn that the sheep were fighting back. By the end of 93, car jackings had scaled way back.

 

It's sort of like the bear hunt in NJ, eventually something will be done about it.

[djg0770 481]

What started out as daily car jackings turned into finding thugs dead in the street. It didn't take long for the DC thugs to learn that the sheep were fighting back. By the end of 93, car jackings had scaled way back.

 

 

The lesson I take from the above story is: police your brass

[Malsua 1,422]

The lesson I take from the above story is: police your brass

 

Or just just a big caliber revolver. If you are shooting from a car how many shots are you going to get off anyway? .44 magnum to the dome and it's over.

[Krdshrk 3,878]

Even if CCW were legal in NJ, the guy in the first scenario would have been turned into a criminal if he had had and pulled his firearm.

 

How so? If he had a CCW, the carjacker had pulled a gun on him - he was in fear for his life.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Or just just a big caliber revolver. If you are shooting from a car how many shots are you going to get off anyway? .44 magnum to the dome and it's over.

 

Easier said than done. Most people can barely hit a target standing in a climate controlled shooting range that doesn't shoot back.

 

More ammo = better.

[djg0770 481]

How so? If he had a CCW, the carjacker had pulled a gun on him - he was in fear for his life.

 

Because of the very weak castle doctrine in NJ. Sorry to sound condescending but you should know this already Nick.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Essex Country Officials have confirmed that 9 carjackings and 9 shootings took place this weekend in Essex County, most of those were in Newark. Please compare the following stories from this week.

 

The first is from a guy on another forum. He builds/tunes Subarus and is an outgoing, standup guy with an extremely nice car with a lot of expensive equipment on it.

 

The second is about an Essex Country Sherrif's Officer with his Mercedes(?!?!?!).

 

First, the "plebe's' story as he wrote it:

 

 

 

The carjackers later got into an accident with his car and carjacked the car they rear-ended!!

 

His car was later recovered, stripped of thousands of dollars of parts and a little beat up.

 

 

Now, the officers story from nj.com:

 

 

 

 

Now, I'm no advocate of vigilantiism, but the first guy was legitimately afraid for his life, he thought/knew he had a 50/50 chance of getting shot and all he could do is stand there and hang his head and wait for some half-wit thug to make the decision for him. Meanwhile, the off-duty police officer has the right to decide for himself whether he is going to comply with the criminal or if the threat/opportunity is such that it warrants other action.

 

I know, I know :thsmiley_deadhorse:

 

 

But, I thought I would share very recent, very nearby happenings as some motivation to continue pushing for CCW in NJ.

 

Even if he had a CCW, he was screwed. He had 0 situational awareness about where his car was parked, or the threat environment. The other thing is he LEFT THE CAR RUNNING!

 

I hate when people do that... especially when they run into a gas station for some smokes. I mean seriously, take the keys and lock the car. Modern cars don't need to warm up. They won't die if you start and stop them.

[Destinydog 9]

Heard this **** on the scanner yesterday, and was like wtf, i work in essex county and this **** is insane, they also grabbed a newer cadilac later in the evening.

[Malsua 1,422]

How so? If he had a CCW, the carjacker had pulled a gun on him - he was in fear for his life.

 

You cannot protect property in NJ. Duty to retreat outside of the home.

[Krdshrk 3,878]

Because of the very weak castle doctrine in NJ. Sorry to sound condescending but you should know this already Nick.

You cannot protect property in NJ. Duty to retreat outside of the home.

 

Thanks - I figured that was the case but wanted to confirm. Still, if it comes down to it, I'm doing all I can to protect my life and to get these criminals off the street.

 

Modern cars don't need to warm up. They won't die if you start and stop them.

Devs - you don't work much with Import/Tuner cars do you? He had an '07 Subaru WRX STI that he had obviously done work to. Cars like that do like to warm up. I warm up and cool down mine.

[Shane45 807]

I think you could make a strong case of no where to retreat to out in the open....

[djg0770 481]

Cars like that do like to warm up. I warm up and cool down mine.

 

Solution = two keys or just take the key fob with you leaving the key in the ignition and the car running while still locking the doors. Even easier on the old GM's that had one key for doors and another for ignition - not sure if they still have that setup.

[Krdshrk 3,878]

Solution = two keys or just take the key fob with you leaving the key in the ignition and the car running while still locking the doors. Even easier on the old GM's that had one key for doors and another for ignition - not sure if they still have that setup.

 

Nah - Everything's 1 key now. For me, I use my remote start

[vjf915 456]

You cannot protect property in NJ. Duty to retreat outside of the home.

His life was in danger though. And if one has a duty to retreat if they are outside the home, then what the hell is the point in having a CCW anyway. That crap will need to be changed as well.

Nah - Everything's 1 key now. For me, I use my remote start

I couldn't do that, I leave my car in geaer.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Thanks - I figured that was the case but wanted to confirm. Still, if it comes down to it, I'm doing all I can to protect my life and to get these criminals off the street.

 

 

Devs - you don't work much with Import/Tuner cars do you? He had an '07 Subaru WRX STI that he had obviously done work to. Cars like that do like to warm up. I warm up and cool down mine.

 

Hey, just sayin'... don't leave your car running unattended.

[djg0770 481]

Hey, just sayin'... don't leave your car running unattended.

 

+1

[NJ609 22]

His life was in danger though. And if one has a duty to retreat if they are outside the home, then what the hell is the point in having a CCW anyway. That crap will need to be changed as well.

 

Yeah that's a good point. CCW is effectively pointless in NJ if you can't even defend yourself from a violent armed criminal.

 

Does anyone know of any case law where the blessed few CCW permit holders actually had to use them and went to trial? Resolutions?

[Malsua 1,422]

His life was in danger though. And if one has a duty to retreat if they are outside the home, then what the hell is the point in having a CCW anyway. That crap will need to be changed as well.

 

This is why there are issues. Was his life really in danger? For a few seconds when the thug was outside with firearm until he sits in the vehicle, then the threat is removed. This is why we need CCW and stand your ground, make my day or even call it the Dirty fricking Harry law, I don't care. If someone is willing to threaten my life over a vehicle, they've forfeited theirs, on the spot, in my opinion. A cop wouldn't go to jail for shooting the perp, why should a citizen? Are we all equal under the law but some are more equal? All the laws have to change and ultimately they will. One way or another these contradictions will get removed over time. This is not to say I think CCW or Make my day will ever get enacted. While that may happen it will be incidental to how society ultimately deals will these issues. If crime ever gets to a point where there is no benefit in being civil, people will make the choices they need to make. Humans have a very strong sense of self preservation and NJ can ignore this only so long at it's peril.

 

For the record, I am not suggestion anyone break the law, that would be against your own best interests. What I am saying is that if it gets bad enough, the laws will become routinely ignored, just like 65mph speed limits on roads built for 80mph. I don't believe we are anywhere close to it being bad but it could change quickly if the dollar collapses or some rogue actor attacks us and throws society into disarray.

[vjf915 456]

If someone is willing to threaten my life over a vehicle, they've forfeited theirs, on the spot, in my opinion.

I 100%, without a doubt agree with this ENTIRELY, and there should absolutely be no exception to it either. I also think this carries over to anything. If somebody has a deadly weapon and threatens to use it in order to obtain my property.....why should I even consider retreating? Somebody who has that much of a disregard for human life does not deserve the good grace of me retreating. This really is basic survival. And here is the issue......when someone is willing to threaten my life like that, I don't know how much further they will go. It could be as small as them just taking my wallet....or them killing me, taking my wallet and keys to find/gain access to my house, and harm my family. Once they open that door of opportunity, why should I be required to retreat?

[cubflyer50 1]

I don't think you would get convicted if someone pulls a gun on you and you don't retreat....you could legitimately say you feel your life was in iminent danger...they shoot people today just so they won't be a witness or they didn't have any or enough money on them or just for the hell of it, gang initiation, etc. Who wants to second guess the criminal??? It would be a different story if he pulled a knife on you then you have disparity of force so you wouldn't be justified unless he lunged at you with the knife...either way, you would still have a lot of legal expenses and headaches if you did shoot in self defense in this state if you were a legally carrying law abiding citizen...(an oxymorom in NJ)

[tommy3rd 132]

If someone is willing to threaten my life over a vehicle, they've forfeited theirs, on the spot, in my opinion.

Amen!

Also, if someone breaks into my home, the "duty to retreat" BS is out the door. I work hard for my stuff and they'll take it just like that??? I will sit in jail, knowing that one guy will never rob or harm another innocent victim again.

[vjf915 456]

It would be a different story if he pulled a knife on you then you have disparity of force so you wouldn't be justified unless he lunged at you with the knife...

Wrong. You need to stick around for a while to learn more. Deadly force is deadly force, it doesn't matter in what form. And the legal distance for protecting yourself from an attacker with a knife is 20ft. If the attacker is within 20ft of you, you can shoot.

[alowerlevel 77]

And the legal distance for protecting yourself from an attacker with a knife is 20ft. If the attacker is within 20ft of you, you can shoot.

Hmmm Ive never heard about that, can you point me to where you saw that at?

[vjf915 456]

I will look for it, might take a little bit to find.

 

Edit: I am sorry, I could not find anything in writing. But this is the standard that police use.

[BRaptor 68]

Hmmm Ive never heard about that, can you point me to where you saw that at?

 

It's not statute, which means that even if the person is within 20 (actually 21) feet, you will still have to prove that your killing is an exception under the homicide statutes. So, just proving that he was within 20 feet won't get you much; you will still have to prove that your killing was excused, but it may help the jury decide that you were in fear for your life.

 

That being said, in nearly every officer-related, self-defense shooting, 20 feet has been close enough to say that the officer was reasonably in fear for his life and, thus, justified in using deadly force. This comes from the fact that even the average person can close 20 feet in the amount of time it takes an officer to react and fire his/her weapon (i.e. see the target is closing aggressively, decide to react, unholster the weapon and then make one, unsighted shot toward center-mass). This all happens in an average of 1.5-1.7 seconds.

 

It's actually called the "21 Foot Rule."

 

Situations differ and NJ's statutes are not in favor of armed citizens defending themselves with firearms. Whether it's a justified/excused homicide is still a question of fact and the 21 foot rule won't automatically set you free.

[vjf915 456]

It's not statute, which means that even if the person is within 20 (actually 21) feet, you will still have to prove that your killing is an exception under the homicide statutes. So, just proving that he was within 20 feet won't get you much; you will still have to prove that your killing was excused, but it may help the jury decide that you were in fear for your life.

 

That being said, in nearly every officer-related, self-defense shooting, 20 feet has been close enough to say that the officer was reasonably in fear for his life and, thus, justified in using deadly force. This comes from the fact that even the average person can close 20 feet in the amount of time it takes an officer to react and fire his/her weapon (i.e. see the target is closing aggressively, decide to react, unholster the weapon and then make one, unsighted shot toward center-mass). This all happens in an average of 1.5-1.7 seconds.

 

It's actually called the "21 Foot Rule."

 

Situations differ and NJ's statutes are not in favor of armed citizens defending themselves with firearms. Whether it's a justified/excused homicide is still a question of fact and the 21 foot rule won't automatically set you free.

So much more information than I could have provided, thank you! If I could have given more than +1, I would have. Great post.

[alowerlevel 77]

Thanks for the explanation, I am aware of the 21 foot/7 yard rule, just the "legal distance for protecting yourself" threw me off. Never heard it referred to like that.