Semi-auto for HD

[blksheep 466]

Admittedly I haven't read every comment in this thread, the BS is just too painful.

 

#1 Did you guys ever hear about making the first shot count?

 

#2 Have any of you ever fired any weapon in the house with out ear protection?

:wild:

 

1. That was my whole point.

2. Not in a "house" but yes and its loud!!!!

[Tactical Turtle 11]

Admittedly I haven't read every comment in this thread, the BS is just too painful.

 

#1 Did you guys ever hear about making the first shot count?

 

#2 Have any of you ever fired any weapon in the house without ear protection?

:wild:

 

Where are you LE guys to wise these folks up?

 

BTW I've fired as large as a 12ga in a confined space. Believe me it wont be "the shootout at the OK corral"

 

#1 yes

#2 no

 

Idk where your getting at with the Leo comment, not being rude just curious. This is a preference thing, each weapon has its advantages, I say train with what you plan on using.

[Jon 264]

I do have a long gun in the bedroom, but if I need to check out a bump in the night, I'm bringing my handgun. The long gun is for pointing at the bedroom door while my wife and I are holed up in the bedroom waiting on the Police to arrive.

 

As for the HD semi-auto shotty, my buddy has an 11-87 with the 18" bbl and ghost rings, and it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot. I'd trust that gun to always run 100% with any type of hot load(it never had a problem with light target birdshot either).

[Vlad G 345]

#1 Did you guys ever hear about making the first shot count?

 

Sure, what the is average number of rounds fired by an LEO for a hit on target? I'll help: http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf about 15% hit rate. I'd like to believe that under stress I'd do better, but will I? Where do the rest of the 85% of the shots gone to?

 

#2 Have any of you ever fired any weapon in the house without ear protection?

 

Are you saying that we should maybe defend ourselves with swords? Or that one weapon is noticebly quieter then another? Not sure what the point is.

 

Where are you LE guys to wise these folks up?

 

See above.

 

BTW I've fired as large as a 12ga in a confined space. Believe me it wont be "the shootout at the OK corral"

 

I'm really not sure where that is coming from. I don't think anyone said they would be looking forward to such an incident.

[Old School 611]

#1 yes

#2 no

 

Idk where your getting at with the Leo comment, not being rude just curious. This is a preference thing, each weapon has its advantages, I say train with what you plan on using.

 

You're not getting "thin skinned" on me are you?

 

LEO may have had the opportunity to fire a weapon indoors or may have trained indoors without ear protection. And the benefits of their experience may help others form their opinions.

[blksheep 466]

quote name='Old School' timestamp='1327931738' post='418396']

Admittedly I haven't read every comment in this thread, the BS is just too painful.

 

#1 Did you guys ever hear about making the first shot count?

 

#2 Have any of you ever fired any weapon in the house without ear protection?

:wild:

 

Where are you LE guys to wise these folks up?

 

BTW I've fired as large as a 12ga in a confined space. Believe me it wont be "the shootout at the OK corral"

[/quotea

 

I have tried to keep my job out of most posts, and look at it like joe citizen. I use what I have in my experience to make decisions about HD or whatever. I take alot from my trainging with firearms from being a recruit, to a Firearms Instructor and add my almost 10 years on the job and make an educated decision.

For shotgun HD I am using a Pump, plain and simple.

[Old School 611]

Vlad- My point is that the shock, noise and confusion is so great after the first shot is fired that subsequent shots may or may not happen.

 

Swords?--- Don't mess with me...

 

PM sent to Vlad.

[blksheep 466]

Sure, what the is average number of rounds fired by an LEO for a hit on target? I'll help: http://www.theppsc.o...s/Aveni/OIS.pdf about 15% hit rate. I'd like to believe that under stress I'd do better, but will I? Where do the rest of the 85% of the shots gone to?

 

 

 

Are you saying that we should maybe defend ourselves with swords? Or that one weapon is noticebly quieter then another? Not sure what the point is.

 

 

 

See above.

 

 

 

I'm really not sure where that is coming from. I don't think anyone said they would be looking forward to such an incident.

 

 

No one can say what is going to ever happen. Sure stats tell alot on paper. But until the day you have to use it you never know what is going to happen. Hopefully trainging takes over and things become natural or muscle memory or whatever people want to call it. The stuff people see in the movies is not real. Things are messy and hectic and crazy. Somebody might fire a gun indoors and cant take the bang and that distracts them from the intended threat.

 

You cant Monday morning quarterback things or draw a picture in your head of if X happens I will def. do Z. You can hope thats what you will do but you never know, and honestly hopefully never know. I am 32 and been doing this almost 10 years and I hope that I never have to take a life for my job or indefense of my home. But if that day comes I hope all the training I have and have given will kick in and its them not me laying there.

[Tactical Turtle 11]

 

 

You're not getting "thin skinned" on me are you?

 

LEO may have had the opportunity to fire a weapon indoors or may have trained indoors without ear protection. And the benefits of their experience may help others form their opinions.

 

No I'm not not sure what u ment by that, leos train in groups atleast I have, never solo. Just was wondering what u ment. I'm also a c/o so my experiences are limited. Don't get guns in jail . Lol

[blksheep 466]

The training for Police and Corrections in regards to firearms is the same. Its all approved by the Police Training Commission.

For the most part hearing protection is a must when running firearms. Too much liability.

[Old School 611]

The training for Police and Corrections in regards to firearms is the same. Its all approved by the Police Training Commission.

For the most part hearing protection is a must when running firearms. Too much liability.

 

My point was you don't get to wear hearing protection in LOD fire. And, it's alot different.

 

And to the LE guys-- Believe me I wasn't taking shots at you just asking you guys to share how f'd up real life senarios are.

[blksheep 466]

My point was you don't get to wear hearing protection in LOD fire. And, it's alot different.

 

Its a hell of alot different. You know. How bout someone go to an indoor range without hearing protection and yell out threat numbers to engage and see what happens then.

[Zell959 40]

Man, what is it with shotgun + HD defense threads on gunboards...

 

 

Anyway, in terms of a semi-auto for HD, I'm inclined to believe that the chance of a mechanical failure in a high quality semi loaded with high quality ammo is probably pretty low. I would even go so far as to say that it's lower than the probablility that a potential user might short stroke a pump action shotun while frightened, as has already been suggested. However, I think the pump wins for most users because the cost to get a pump shotgun you can trust should be significantly lower than the cost of buying a trustworthy semi-auto [+ all the extra ammo needed to thoroughly test that it iscycling reliably].

[Vlad G 345]

No one can say what is going to ever happen. Sure stats tell alot on paper. But until the day you have to use it you never know what is going to happen. Hopefully trainging takes over and things become natural or muscle memory or whatever people want to call it. The stuff people see in the movies is not real. Things are messy and hectic and crazy. Somebody might fire a gun indoors and cant take the bang and that distracts them from the intended threat.

 

You cant Monday morning quarterback things or draw a picture in your head of if X happens I will def. do Z. You can hope thats what you will do but you never know, and honestly hopefully never know. I am 32 and been doing this almost 10 years and I hope that I never have to take a life for my job or indefense of my home. But if that day comes I hope all the training I have and have given will kick in and its them not me laying there.

 

I'm with you on all of that, which is why I did say that the weapon you most comfortable with is probably the right one for you. Just like you, I hope to never have to find out if my choices are right or wrong, but I'll say a bit of quarterbacking, thoughts experiments, and what if's are necessary or else we never learn from anyone elses mistakes. In my case that line of thought has lead me to the conclusion that I can't hope to effectively manipulate a pump shotgun with one hand if I need to shield or move a family member or god forbid I'm injured, that I can't effectively manipulate it left handed unless I spent way more time then I have available training for that scenario, that given my house layout I can't effectively navigate with a shotgun and that my 5ft tall wife can't handle a shotgun anywhere near as effectively as a handgun.

 

Plus I can shoot a handgun moderately well.

[blksheep 466]

I'm with you on all of that, which is why I did say that the weapon you most comfortable with is probably the right one for you. Just like you, I hope to never have to find out if my choices are right or wrong, but I'll say a bit of quarterbacking, thoughts experiments, and what if's are necessary or else we never learn from anyone elses mistakes. In my case that line of thought has lead me to the conclusion that I can't hope to effectively manipulate a pump shotgun with one hand if I need to shield or move a family member or god forbid I'm injured, that I can't effectively manipulate it left handed unless I spent way more time then I have available training for that scenario, that given my house layout I can't effectively navigate with a shotgun and that my 5ft tall wife can't handle a shotgun anywhere near as effectively as a handgun.

 

Plus I can shoot a handgun moderately well.

 

I agree. Everyone and every scenario is different be comfortable with whatever you choose.

[vjf915 456]

So you store your GOTO, gotta work right now, my life depends on it gun with an empty chamber just so you can make a scary noise that may or may not scare someone? Interesting.

THANK YOU!! Someone finally gets it.

 

 

You use the cycling of the pump action as a deterrent right off the bat.

I'm sorry, but no you don't. You go in with a round/shell chambered, and you use "I have a firearm, and I will use it to defend myself should you threaten my safety" as a deterrent, while you're pointing the firearm COM.

[vladtepes 1,060]

Have you guys ever tried moving quickly through your house with a shotgun?

 

yes which is why I prefer a compact carbine to a shotgun...

but my Saiga 12 is fairly small with the stock completely collapsed.. if I do ever SBR it then it will be moot.. that thing will be tiny..

[vladtepes 1,060]

Its a hell of alot different. You know. How bout someone go to an indoor range without hearing protection and yell out threat numbers to engage and see what happens then.

 

I have shot in an fairly enclosed area without ears to see.. and ti was loud.. I am sure completely indoors it would be even worse..

[Shane45 807]

Blksheep, Fireamrs instructor, experience etc etc and you dont see any flaws in the ref material you linked about pen of 5.56 rounds? I read that ref material as NJ doesnt want LE using evil black rifles either LOL

[blksheep 466]

Blksheep, Fireamrs instructor, experience etc etc and you dont see any flaws in the ref material you linked about pen of 5.56 rounds? I read that ref material as NJ doesnt want LE using evil black rifles either LOL

 

LOL

[Underdog 1,593]

The sound of a shotgun being racked could just as easily escalate the problem as subdue it.

[blksheep 466]

I think if someone is in your house the problem already is escalated.

[tuktuk 16]

Love the discussion. Encourage freedom of expression ..... However let's stick to the topic

[MarkWVU02 47]

The sound of a shotgun racking could go either way. The guy could wet himself and take off, or now he knows where you are based on the sound and what you're armed with. I'd probably grab my handgun first, but I do keep the shotgun handy. I normally don't have one chambered so I'd have to rack it and hope this scares someone away...if not I'm ready to rock. I keep 8 rounds in the mag and the safety off. All I have to do is rack quick and I'm ready to rock. We did read a study in a criminology class (granted this was a few years ago). They asked burglars what sound they might hear entering a house that would cause them to leave #1 was a large dog barking #2 was the sound of a shotgun racking...you can take that for what it's worth but I'd venture to say most burglars wouldn't want to take the chance and meet the business end of a shotgun when the house across the street could possibly contain no firearms.

[Vlad G 345]

This topic is now about dogs. Based on MarkWVU02 post, is a loud but small dog better then a quiet but bigger agressive dog?

[vjf915 456]

I think if someone is in your house the problem already is escalated.

Then if the problem has already escalated, you shouldn't be foolish enough to approach a criminal that broke into your house with an uncharged firearm. Let's get real, this isn't the movies. You wanna walk out all gung-ho with your M1 Garand, chicken wing it like a mo-fo, and tell the burglar to get off your lawn....that's your own prerogative. Walk into a potential life threatening situation unprepared, with your firearm uncharged, and your chances of living to talk about it dwindle.

[bbk 188]

Ultimately the question I pose for those who do think the racking sound of the shotgun would be a [good] deterrent is this:

Why would you depend on variables far beyond your own control when it comes to your life and/or your loved ones?

 

To put it in context, the bad guy could be tweaked out, very persistent, willing to die, deaf, already distracted by other sounds, etc. Essentially all of these variables are out of your realm of control. Personally when it comes to my plan, it revolves around what I have access and means to-- and not necessarily dependent on the actions of others. In a dynamic situation, I want to be in control, the one attempting to wrestle control and dictate the situation-- and not really wanting to react. Truth is that, obviously, if someone kicks down your door, you are in a position of reaction initially-- but with a sound plan where you have already considered the different options AND trained them, the momentum can be reacquired.

 

So, again, why depend on a laundry list of variables beyond one's control, especially when it comes to lives?

[Recon Racoon 49]

If I'm going to stop a threat in my house, I'm loading my shotgun in my bedroom, I will have a shell ready to go when I leave the bedroom, no trying to scare him off, no acting badass and hoping for the best. Theres just to much of a risk of something going bad.

 

Also over penetration. Anybody shoot Hexolit 32?

http://www.ddupleks.lv/EN/ddupleks_products/show/Hexolit32

They look like they'd reduce over penetration pretty good.

[vladtepes 1,060]

Ultimately the question I pose for those who do think the racking sound of the shotgun would be a [good] deterrent is this:

Why would you depend on variables far beyond your own control when it comes to your life and/or your loved ones?

 

To put it in context, the bad guy could be tweaked out, very persistent, willing to die, deaf, already distracted by other sounds, etc. Essentially all of these variables are out of your realm of control. Personally when it comes to my plan, it revolves around what I have access and means to-- and not necessarily dependent on the actions of others. In a dynamic situation, I want to be in control, the one attempting to wrestle control and dictate the situation-- and not really wanting to react. Truth is that, obviously, if someone kicks down your door, you are in a position of reaction initially-- but with a sound plan where you have already considered the different options AND trained them, the momentum can be reacquired.

 

So, again, why depend on a laundry list of variables beyond one's control, especially when it comes to lives?

 

to be blunt when people say "racking the slide" in the sense of it being a defensive move to "scare away" the intruder.. I honestly always took it as kidding around.. it is mind numbing that any individual would actually want to do that..

 

racking the slide does a few things..

lets the person know you are armed..

lets them know you are coming..

gives them a good idea where you are...

 

it is a pretty ridiculous thing to even consider.. almost comical..

[echo five foxtrot 1]

This is a great thread. I would be happy with either as long as they work and you can work them. I dont thik either is wrong based on your situation and plan. Any consideration for how a home defense weapon appears in court after a worse case senario? Such as "man defends family with old hunting shotgun" or "man uses assault weapon in defense of family" type perceptions?