Article: Rise of the Warrior Cop

[Kimber45 3]

Hey Biuelinekitten I wasn't being satire in my post I was just trying to explain some things but apparently it doesn't matter. Because it seems like even a simple explanation will not suffice...if you want the truth than man up and do what we Leos do....that's the only was you will really know what we are up against.... thanks

[djg0770 481]

if you want the truth than man up and do what we Leos do....that's the only was you will really know what we are up against.... thanks

 

So, is it us vs them or not guys??

[bhunted 887]

No.... It's them vs. the criminals....

 

So, is it us vs them or not guys??

 

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Typos courtesy Apple...

[ChrisJM981 924]

No.... It's them vs. the criminals....

 

 

 

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Typos courtesy Apple...

I feel it's us vs the criminals. I hope that most LEOs feel the same.

[High Exposure 5,674]

No.... It's them vs. the criminals....

 

 

 

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Typos courtesy Apple...

Almost... It is US (Cops and good Citizens alike) vs. the criminals.

[Vlad G 345]

Almost... It is US (Cops and good Citizens alike) vs. the criminals.

 

I hope you are right, because that is the way it should be and it encourages me to hear you say it. 

 

My worry (and I've seen enough examples to be truly concerned) is that because a lot of police officers by necessity spend a lot of time interacting with the 5-10% section of humanity who are scum that they start thinking of everyone through that light. I understand how it happens, which is why I think there needs to be more open dialog between police and everyone else, which is why I encourage more police to walk and talk to the people on their beat, and why the militarization aspect bothers me as it only servers to further separate the two. 

[High Exposure 5,674]

if you want the truth than man up and do what we Leos do....that's the only was you will really know what we are up against.... thanks

Statements like this aren't meant to divide or separate Cops from the citizens they protect. It is a product of frustration. Frustration that everyone knows our jobs better than us - you don't tell your surgeon how to do his job, or your priest, your bartender, or butcher. Why does everyone think that they know our jobs better than us? Without being a Cop how would you know that our SOP for handling a certain situation is this, or the approved tactic to dealing with this kind of interaction is that? You can't. And frankly there is no need for you to know it, just like I have no need to know every little step, reason, justification for everything you do in your job.

 

There are a lot of nuances to the Job. A lot of little things that have to be done and a lot of room to make mistakes. We have some pretty broad discretion in some aspects and little to none in others. You have some guys that are excellent at Community Policing, other excel at investigations or traffic enforcement or high risk stuff. Just like at your job you have a guy that is really knows how to do one thing, and another co-worker is the go-to person for another task.

 

Our hands are tied by a lot of red tape, everything we do is scrutinized, MMQBd, and everyone always "knows" whatever we did, we did it for malicious reasons. The thought is that maybe if some of our more vocal critics did our job for a month they would see what it is really like. The Spineless Administrators, the scumbag attorneys, the endless restrictions on how we can or can't handle situations, the hours of hard work to see a judge throw it all away in seconds for some BS technicality, everyone telling you that they are your masters and pay your salary... And that just the other routine and mundane. You still have to add in all the child abuse, rapes, domestics, drugs, robberies, and suicides you see.

 

I am not complaining or bellyaching. I like my job and go to work happy everyday. But, it is hard. It is frustrating, and it is very technical. I try everyday to do it correct and to the best of my ability balancing the needs of my community (safety, security, assistance) with how I interact with regular good people and the scum of the Earth. Sometimes I can get it done being officer friendly, sometimes I can't, but either way the job has to get done. Incidentally, the tone of any police encounter is generally set by the person being contacted.

[Vlad G 345]

Frustration that everyone knows our jobs better than us - you don't tell your surgeon how to do his job, or your priest, your bartender, or butcher. Why does everyone think that they know our jobs better than us? 

 

Well lets face it, a mistaken interaction with my priest or bartender or butcher is a lot less likely to live me dead, injured, in jail, broke, sued, unemployed, and forever stigmatized.   You guys are held to a higher standard because your job can dramatically affect people's lives and because the priest and bartender are rarely likely to act on political pressure to make someone life more miserable. I'm not saying that individual LEO's do that, I'm saying the departments as a whole do, under pressure from political machines. To the guy you interact with, the distinction is meaningless.

[mipafox 438]

I really don't care what cops think.

 

Who is more of a threat to American way of life and the Bill of Rights? The government of New Jersey or MS-13 and the Latin Kings? The federal government or Al Qaeda?

 

Let me guess. If I don't like the laws, I should go to the polls and vote. Right?

 

The only serious threat to the citizenry is the government. It's not even a threat, it's happening NOW. I'm not listening to explanations and excuses from the very people charged with oppressing us. You are making $100K+ per year and you don't get a pension unless you get 25 years in. Maybe you grit your teeth, maybe you bargain with your own principles, or maybe you buy into the bs through immersion over the years.

 

All law enforcement and the full power of all intelligence agencies in the US have been turned against the Citizenry. It's us vs. them.

[SgtToadette 59]

I think there's a disparity here that has citizens upset.

 

Fact: We're all human.

 

When a citizen commits a mistake, in the workplace or in their daily lives, they are legally liable for those actions regardless of how small the offense. This is the way it should be because we can't have a functioning legal system otherwise.

 

On the other hand, there's an impression that when a law enforcement officer commits a mistake, even one in which major harm was inflicted like many of the cited no-knock warrants, they seem to receive little more than a slap on the wrist. Some of these mistakes are, indeed, understandable and probably shouldn't receive major punishments. Others are not so forgivable, and it needs to be admitted that the unwavering Thin Blue Line hinders the removal of the bad apples.

 

I encourage open dialog between LEOs and other citizens. We largely have the same goals and morals, but there are going to be times where both LEOs and citizens need to admit that they are part of the problem. Cops are not the oppressors of the people that many here are making them out to be, and sometimes that perception makes encounters with police worse.  At the same time, many LEOs here seem to believe that simply because they are capable of mistakes, they should be immune from responsibility of said mistakes. Neither idea is correct and we should try our best to be introspective and rectify them.

[Combat Auto 174]

Statements like this aren't meant to divide or separate Cops from the citizens they protect. It is a product of frustration. Frustration that everyone knows our jobs better than us - you don't tell your surgeon how to do his job, or your priest, your bartender, or butcher. Why does everyone think that they know our jobs better than us? Without being a Cop how would you know that our SOP for handling a certain situation is this, or the approved tactic to dealing with this kind of interaction is that? You can't. And frankly there is no need for you to know it, just like I have no need to know every little step, reason, justification for everything you do in your job.

 

There are a lot of nuances to the Job. A lot of little things that have to be done and a lot of room to make mistakes. We have some pretty broad discretion in some aspects and little to none in others. You have some guys that are excellent at Community Policing, other excel at investigations or traffic enforcement or high risk stuff. Just like at your job you have a guy that is really knows how to do one thing, and another co-worker is the go-to person for another task.

 

Our hands are tied by a lot of red tape, everything we do is scrutinized, MMQBd, and everyone always "knows" whatever we did, we did it for malicious reasons. The thought is that maybe if some of our more vocal critics did our job for a month they would see what it is really like. The Spineless Administrators, the scumbag attorneys, the endless restrictions on how we can or can't handle situations, the hours of hard work to see a judge throw it all away in seconds for some BS technicality, everyone telling you that they are your masters and pay your salary... And that just the other routine and mundane. You still have to add in all the child abuse, rapes, domestics, drugs, robberies, and suicides you see.

 

I am not complaining or bellyaching. I like my job and go to work happy everyday. But, it is hard. It is frustrating, and it is very technical. I try everyday to do it correct and to the best of my ability balancing the needs of my community (safety, security, assistance) with how I interact with regular good people and the scum of the Earth. Sometimes I can get it done being officer friendly, sometimes I can't, but either way the job has to get done. Incidentally, the tone of any police encounter is generally set by the person being contacted.

I empathize with your fustration...BUT,

Whenever I have critical decisions with any of the "pros" you mentioned (esp. Doctors) I absolutly DO "cross examine" their process, their reasons, and thier decisions...Any responsible consumer should do this...Cops are right up their with surgeons as far as the possibility of doing harm to folks when it isn't necesiarily warrented. Lets face it, Cops operate on the edge of "deadly-force" at least on ocasion...The scrutany is more than warrented - consider it part of being a public servant.

[Combat Auto 174]

I empathize with your fustration...BUT,

Whenever I have critical decisions with any of the "pros" you mentioned (esp. Doctors) I absolutly DO "cross examine" their process, their reasons, and thier decisions...Any responsible consumer should do this...Cops are right up their with surgeons as far as the possibility of doing harm to folks when it isn't necesiarily warrented. Lets face it, Cops operate on the edge of "deadly-force" at least on ocasion...The scrutany is more than warrented - consider it part of being a public servant.

PS, If my hired pro - doctor, lawyer, etc. dosn't like my questions - I hire another one...We can't do that with PD. In essence PDs are a goverment monopoly (not saying there is a better way necessarily) - but with all monopolies, there is a high probability of abuse, and a higher need for scrutany.

[RUTGERS95 890]

Not only that but most of us can be fired on the spot whereas leo are pretty safe. With the pay, benefits, retirement and other perks, its a nice safe job. It can be a tough job but really, who doesnt have a tough job tuat is always under scrutiny?

[bhunted 887]

I was going to say that but beings this thread has made it seem like leo are over powered, I left it that way.

Almost... It is US (Cops and good Citizens alike) vs. the criminals.

[Handyman 5,682]

I really don't care what cops think.

 

Who is more of a threat to American way of life and the Bill of Rights? The government of New Jersey or MS-13 and the Latin Kings? The federal government or Al Qaeda?

 

Let me guess. If I don't like the laws, I should go to the polls and vote. Right?

 

The only serious threat to the citizenry is the government. It's not even a threat, it's happening NOW. I'm not listening to explanations and excuses from the very people charged with oppressing us. You are making $100K+ per year and you don't get a pension unless you get 25 years in. Maybe you grit your teeth, maybe you bargain with your own principles, or maybe you buy into the bs through immersion over the years.

 

All law enforcement and the full power of all intelligence agencies in the US have been turned against the Citizenry. It's us vs. them.

 

+1

[Parker 213]

I won't comment on tactics and/or mistakes, we see enough stupidity in the world to know that no one is perfect. But, the ever-evolving militarization of our police is only in response to the lowest common denominators that walk the Earth but also how we make them out to be the boogeymen some folks would have nightmares about. That helps make for an easy sell. How some departments are outfitted today has reached epic proportions, especially since 9/11 occurred. $3 billion a year doled out from the DHS in grants to departments to aid in "anti-terrorism" efforts make a Lenco Bearcat possible in very garage.   

You can't deny that this article and others like it sheds light on reality. The "build-up" in weapons and tactics is real. That iconic Norman Rockwell painting of the MA state trooper with the little boy sitting in a diner is from an American era that is sadly no more.

This particular theme is a topic for discussion all the time in my family whenever there is a large get-together. Eight members have served/are still serving in law enforcement; from state police, county police, local police, ICE and DHS. The stories I have heard over the last half-century boggle the mind, laced with both valor and ineptness. Collectively they see some good in many of these new toys as value-added but at the same time are shaking their heads in disbelief, as they also see the side that makes them question how we got to this point and why do we need this in a free society. One realism you can steel yourself for, it's not going away nor will get better.

[Kimber45 3]

Let me tell you a little stories. I have spent my entire career with a spotless record. 15 years with no write ups. Yes I am no stranger to IA investigations have had a few throughout the years. I am known as a firm but fair officer. I don't play friends with animals like some others do but I treat them as they would treat me. If you treat me with respect (as a human not a cop) Than I will treat you the same. About 2 1/2 years ago I was involved in a situation involving an inmate. This inmate wasn't pleased with me so he made some colorful remarks that could have landed him in segregation for a few days not to mention getting booted out of the kitchen and getting time off his sentence for work credits and good behavior...ah yeah welcome to my world.... anyway I had this inmate report to my control area to speak to him this area was populated with other officers and civilian workers. Not to mention cameras all over the place. I sat down with the inmate and gave him a verbal repremand no physical contact what so ever. Needless to say the inmate was upset and was returned to the kitchen area where he was heckled by the other inmates. Let me also add that I am 5,11 280 lbs this inmate was 5'7 150 lbs. Anyhow to speed things up a little I spent 15 month's on suspension without pay because this inmate filed a complaint that I beat the crap out of him.. punching him in the face with a closed fist 7 or 8 times....really the photos that IA took the following day showed no such injury but the grand jury didn't have a problem true billing me......even after I volunteered to waive my rights and testify at the grand jury they refused me. Oh and buy the way if you didn't know if your Leo and are charged with a second degree crime your going to prison for 5 years no parole no probation no PTI that's only for you doctors and bartenders... turns out between the video and photographs oh and the many phone calls to his girlfriend explaining to her how they were going to "JAMB ME UP REALLY GOOD" not to mention the passing polygraph I volunteered for the case was dismissed and I am back to work......but to all that think a cops job is simple or we freaking make too much reread this storie and tell me how you would feel That all you have worked for could be swept away by the words of some scumbag. Oh but he was doing time for possession and assault on an Leo.... oh that's right they dropped the assault on a Leo for a guilty plea for the possession charge .... oh and while were at it how was Christmas with the family

[Jon 264]

 That iconic Norman Rockwell painting of the MA state trooper with the little boy sitting in a diner is from an American era that is sadly no more.

 

If that painting were to exist in real-life today, I can think of at least a dozen people on this site calling for the officer's job because he's wasting taxpayer money by eating 'on the clock'.

[Soju 153]

Let me tell you a little stories. I have spent my entire career with a spotless record. 15 years with no write ups. Yes I am no stranger to IA investigations have had a few throughout the years. I am known as a firm but fair officer. I don't play friends with animals like some others do but I treat them as they would treat me. If you treat me with respect (as a human not a cop) Than I will treat you the same. About 2 1/2 years ago I was involved in a situation involving an inmate. This inmate wasn't pleased with me so he made some colorful remarks that could have landed him in segregation for a few days not to mention getting booted out of the kitchen and getting time off his sentence for work credits and good behavior...ah yeah welcome to my world.... anyway I had this inmate report to my control area to speak to him this area was populated with other officers and civilian workers. Not to mention cameras all over the place. I sat down with the inmate and gave him a verbal repremand no physical contact what so ever. Needless to say the inmate was upset and was returned to the kitchen area where he was heckled by the other inmates. Let me also add that I am 5,11 280 lbs this inmate was 5'7 150 lbs. Anyhow to speed things up a little I spent 15 month's on suspension without pay because this inmate filed a complaint that I beat the crap out of him.. punching him in the face with a closed fist 7 or 8 times....really the photos that IA took the following day showed no such injury but the grand jury didn't have a problem true billing me......even after I volunteered to waive my rights and testify at the grand jury they refused me. Oh and buy the way if you didn't know if your Leo and are charged with a second degree crime your going to prison for 5 years no parole no probation no PTI that's only for you doctors and bartenders... turns out between the video and photographs oh and the many phone calls to his girlfriend explaining to her how they were going to "JAMB ME UP REALLY GOOD" not to mention the passing polygraph I volunteered for the case was dismissed and I am back to work......

I feel for you. That is a crappy situation.

 

That all you have worked for could be swept away by the words of some scumbag.

I'm glad you understand. That exact same thing can happen to any of us, all on the word of someone. It is an equally as crappy situation.

 

Oh but he was doing time for possession and assault on an Leo.... oh that's right they dropped the assault on a Leo for a guilty plea for the possession charge

That is because the system sucks. Real crime doesn't pay, so making a plea is usually easy. I have a problem with that just as much as you.

 

.... oh and while were at it how was Christmas with the family

I think I've been around for 1 Christmas in the last 6 years, so I don't really know. If you were just asking to ask, then thank you. If you were trying to make a point on how difficult the job of an LEO is, make another. Lots of people miss out on holidays and family time due to their job. That is far from unique. There is an expression, something about a small violin, that may be applicable.

[BlueLineFish 615]

If that painting were to exist in real-life today, I can think of at least a dozen people on this site calling for the officer's job because he's wasting taxpayer money by eating 'on the clock'.

 

Quite true.

[RUTGERS95 890]

that's a great picture, one of my favorite artists.

[Handyman 5,682]

I think I've been around for 1 Christmas in the last 6 years, so I don't really know. If you were just asking to ask, then thank you. If you were trying to make a point on how difficult the job of an LEO is, make another. Lots of people miss out on holidays and family time due to their job. That is far from unique. There is an expression, something about a small violin, that may be applicable.

 

[Parker 213]

that's a great picture, one of my favorite artists.

That trooper, Rockwell's neighbor, Dick Clemens, died last year. He was 84.

[W2MC 1,699]

that's a great picture, one of my favorite artists.

More info about the Norman Rockwell - watch the video

 

http://blogs.artinfo.com/artintheair/2012/05/09/former-state-trooper-who-posed-for-famous-norman-rockwell-drawing-dead-at-83/

[KevD 0]

I feel for you. That is a crappy situation. I'm glad you understand. That exact same thing can happen to any of us, all on the word of someone. It is an equally as crappy situation. That is because the system sucks. Real crime doesn't pay, so making a plea is usually easy. I have a problem with that just as much as you. I think I've been around for 1 Christmas in the last 6 years, so I don't really know. If you were just asking to ask, then thank you. If you were trying to make a point on how difficult the job of an LEO is, make another. Lots of people miss out on holidays and family time due to their job. That is far from unique. There is an expression, something about a small violin, that may be applicable.

+1 ... Im gonna write the minimum because moderators keep deleting my posts so i guess i dont have the right to say anything... Nj its so great even the citizens oppress you .. Gotta love it

[High Exposure 5,674]

Alright men, we have a hostage situation. Six people already dead and unknown hostages holed up with a gunman in an occupied apartment building. We had to get rid of the SWAT team and all of the appropriate training and equipment that would make this job safer for them and us because the residents said we were too scary, so.... Let's send one of the traffic guys, the SRO, the DARE officer, and the Community Affairs Liaison to handle this. You guys remember the 6 hours of initial training you got in the Academy on room clearing right? Good. Oh, while we are at it, all you need are your revolvers and, let's leave the body armor behind, OK boys. Don't want to scare the residents while we save them. Good Luck! :rolleyeyes:

 

How do you think the below story would have ended if the above was the real callout?

 

http://news.sky.com/story/1121092/hostage-deaths-moment-police-killed-gunman - Video of the gunfight at the link

 

Television cameras have captured the moment a SWAT team stormed an apartment and shot dead a man who killed six people.

 

There had been a stand-off with officers lasting eight hours after the suspect had barricaded himself with hostages inside the complex in Florida.

 

It ended with a shoot-out - footage showed bright red flashes and the crackle of gunfire as the specialist team went into the apartment.

 

Police entered the flat as they believed two hostages were still alive and were being held at gunpoint.

 

The stand-off began around 6:30pm local time in a five storey building in Hialeah, just north of Miami.

 

The bodies of three women and two men were found in the apartment complex after officers arrived.

 

Another man was killed across the street when the gunman allegedly spotted him and took aim.

 

Two of the hostages the man took were reportedly unharmed.

 

Before the shoot-out, police had been able to communicate with the gunman.

 

Police spokesman Carl Zogby said: "Eight hours after this situation started early Saturday morning SWAT units move in and shot and killed the suspect.

 

"At the time the suspect was holding at least two hostages at gunpoint and the decision was made that negotiation was to cease and action was to be taken immediately.

 

"The end result; seven people have lost their lives in this incident - six innocent victims and the one shooter. Now starts the investigation - how and why this happened."

 

So far, the gunman's motives remain unknown.

 

"We think this may have been an angry man doing random shooting perhaps," said Mr. Zogby.

 

"We're going to try to figure out why this happened here."

 

Officers are still investigating the motive and identifying the gunman and victims.

 

The manager of the West 46th Street apartment building and his wife were reportedly among those killed by the gunman.

Like it or not, the training and equipment that has been found to be effective by the Military in the current war are just that. Effective. They work. They save lives - hostage and Cop lives, neighboring resident lives, and sometimes, the bad guy's life as well.

 

Equipment, TTPs, and Uniforms do not mean "Militarization".

[Vlad G 345]

That is a strawman argument. The issue is not that we don't need swat teams, but that we are overusing them. Was this an appropriate use of swat? Of course, that is what swat is for, but how many times are they used for the wrong reason at the wrong place?

[High Exposure 5,674]

It is not a Strawman argument at all. Maybe you are not, but that author and some of the posters here, are calling for the end of SWAT teams.

 

Also, you realize that most of the instances where what you are talking about occurs, including the very first one mentioned by the author in his hit-piece, was not a SWAT team right?

[johnott 5]

High Exposure: If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it's a duck. You said..."training and equipment that has been found to be effective by the Military in the current war are just that. Effective". So you are claiming that using Military War Tactics doesn't make you militarized in any way? I don't see your point.

 

I have no problem with Tactics and Technology when they are used against the "bad guys" in extreme situations such as, hostage situations, terrorism, etc. But it doesn't stop there. It is becoming the way to deal with every situation.

 

So, is everything permissible as long as the end justifies the means?

[johnott 5]

To clarify my earlier statement. I have nothing against SWAT. Police force personnel (in general) are becoming more "SWAT-like" even though they are not on a SWAT team themselves. It seems everyone is emulating SWAT or Special OPs in some way or another. The average citizen has a hard time telling who is who. From the front, SWAT, DHS, FDA, ICE, etc. all look alike. People dressed in Camo or black with helmets, vests and AR type rifles and handguns strapped to their thigh. It looks like we

are dealing with the military rather than the police.