Electronic nics requiring social security #

[nuclearheli 40]

 Well that's nice that you think this thread should be in another forum but I was simply answering a question. It's unfortunate that you choose this public forum to vent you business frustrations. The bottom line is my accountant is no better than yours is and I find it extremely difficult to believe your account received any such guidance from the IRS since their official  position is that they do not provide guidance on any statue unless that statue has been challenged legally in a court of law. So simply put I am more than willing to admit that I am wrong as soon as you PM me with the name of your account so I can have my accountant  contact them to verify the IRS information. That would be fair. But I believe that PM will never come. 

 

Even if I did bury the NICS tax in the price of the gun that would be irrelevant to the end user since my prices are very competitive, more so than yours, and I actually don't charge NICS for any gun purchased from me because I believe that your TAXES have paid for NICS and you should not pay for them again. It's one thing to preach Second Amendment, it's another thing to believe in it.

 

So I don't need to make myself look good, my customers can speak to that. However I do want to clarify one thing that I find interesting. If you believe that NICS should be taxed why are you overcharging your customer for NICS. According to your web site NICS is $18.00. Well since the NJSP charges us $15 (no tax), then given %7 in NJ your NICS charge should be $16.05. Isn't 7% of $15 $0.75? Where is the other $1.95 going?

[blksheep 466]

[PK90 3,571]

[JT Custom Guns 958]

 Well that's nice that you think this thread should be in another forum but I was simply answering a question. It's unfortunate that you choose this public forum to vent you business frustrations. The bottom line is my accountant is no better than yours is and I find it extremely difficult to believe your account received any such guidance from the IRS since their official  position is that they do not provide guidance on any statue unless that statue has been challenged legally in a court of law. So simply put I am more than willing to admit that I am wrong as soon as you PM me with the name of your account so I can have my accountant  contact them to verify the IRS information. That would be fair. But I believe that PM will never come. 

 

Even if I did bury the NICS tax in the price of the gun that would be irrelevant to the end user since my prices are very competitive, more so than yours, and I actually don't charge NICS for any gun purchased from me because I believe that your TAXES have paid for NICS and you should not pay for them again. It's one thing to preach Second Amendment, it's another thing to believe in it.

 

So I don't need to make myself look good, my customers can speak to that. However I do want to clarify one thing that I find interesting. If you believe that NICS should be taxed why are you overcharging your customer for NICS. According to your web site NICS is $18.00. Well since the NJSP charges us $15 (no tax), then given %7 in NJ your NICS charge should be $16.05. Isn't 7% of $15 $0.75? Where is the other $1.95 going?

To be clear - you are the one who publicly stated that other dealer should not tax NICS because it's non-taxable, but you later state that you don't charge NICS because it's the easiest way around the tax debate. So if you so sure it non-taxable there wouldn't be a need to "get around it'.

 

I do not pay my accountant to educate your accountant - your run your business and I'll run mine.

I don't try to make other dealers on this forum look bad to further my business, my customers further my business.

And as a matter of record - I charge $18.00 for NICS checks on transfers for gun I didn't sell and $15.00 for NICS for guns I

sold and for repeat customers. Who the hell are you to say I overcharge my customers? The additional $1.95 goes twords operating

expenses and overhead (like inventory) which isn't a concern of yours.......................

[blksheep 466]

Well I think that both of you are great shops to the community. They are plenty of d-bag shops in this state both @ home and brick and mortar, neither of which you guys are.

 

There is only one way to solve this....

 

In the Pits on Steel

[nuclearheli 40]

Thank you for proving my point, enough said. If you set out to prove your an ass you succeeded. You don't like me because I sell directly from wholesale that''s fine, and that's really the issue here. It's not going to cost you any money to prove your point. I am willing to say it right here on the forum, I will pay for your accountant's time, out of my own pocket. You have nothing to loose and everything to gain by proving me wrong.  You have "overhead" on NICS, that's special. Makes no difference to me or my customers. Same guns, lower price, great service. The american way, get use to it or don't, I don't give a crap. 

[JT Custom Guns 958]

I never said I didn't like you - I said I didn't like you making other dealers (myself included)

look bad for charging tax on NICS.

I personally do not care where you sell from; just don't throw shit at other dealers while doing 

your business.

And as far as the ASS remark goes - it would appear the fryin' pan is callin' the kettle black............

[nuclearheli 40]

Well I think that both of you are great shops to the community. They are plenty of d-bag shops in this state both @ home and brick and mortar, neither of which you guys are.

 

There is only one way to solve this....

 

In the Pits on Steel

 

I am there!!!

[blksheep 466]

Right now? Ill be working 2p-10p on Saturdays now...still off Sundays. I am gonna take you up on the offfer...

[JT Custom Guns 958]

Well I think that both of you are great shops to the community. They are plenty of d-bag shops in this state both @ home and brick and mortar, neither of which you guys are.

 

There is only one way to solve this....

 

In the Pits on Steel

Thank you!

[blksheep 466]

Welcome. Truth be told I have bought guns from a WHOLE lot of shops. You guys on the forums are really the best in the state.

[JT Custom Guns 958]

Well then - Thank you again (on behalf of all of us)

[halbautomatisch 60]

This is the reference you want to read and provide to your tax accountant. Take note of the first four paragraphs specifically.

 

http://www.state.nj....oservices.shtml

 

Specifically collection of information which is not specifically the item being sold is not taxable. When I sell a gun on my web site the gun is the subject of the sale, not the NICS check therefore the gun is subject to tax, not the gathering of information provided by the state needed to complete the sale.

Your link is not working........

 

I do know that background check services (like an employer paying to check the background of a new hire) and other investigative services ARE taxable.

[nuclearheli 40]

http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxation/infoservices.shtml

 

New Jersey Department of Treasury, Division of Taxation, Tax Notes - Information Services (02/25/08), Reference only, please check with your own tax professional!! 

[halbautomatisch 60]

If this is what you're basing your decision on, keep in mind that NICS fees are paid to Champion Communications, not the state directly.

 

Fees paid to obtain governmental documents and records
Fees and charges paid to New Jersey governmental agencies or federal governmental agencies to obtain documents, records, or information of any kind which are required to be maintained as part of the agency’s regulatory function are not subject to sales tax.

[PK90 3,571]

MCI used to charge NJ dealers sales tax on the NICS check. This never should have happened. But since it did, that extra tax was passed onto the consumer. I mistakenly passed it along as a tax, so I ended up paying the State of NJ double the tax. After realizing my error, I edited Quickbooks to charge it as a fee.

 

When MCI stopped charging for the NICS and Champion took it over, sales tax was stopped being charged to NJ dealers. This is when I stopped collecting any sales tax or fee on the NICS. IMO, it is a service provided by an out of state Vendor which is nontaxable, as with any other service. I do not pay NJ the NICS fee. I pay Champion.

 

Some will say that NJ does provide the NICS service and Champion only acts as a collection agency. In that case, the NICS is a tax levied by the State. Taxing a tax is not correct.

[TooBigToFit 2]

If this is what you're basing your decision on, keep in mind that NICS fees are paid to Champion Communications, not the state directly.

 

Fees paid to obtain governmental documents and records

Fees and charges paid to New Jersey governmental agencies or federal governmental agencies to obtain documents, records, or information of any kind which are required to be maintained as part of the agency’s regulatory function are not subject to sales tax.

 

I believe he is basing it on the statement towards the top...

 

 

 

Many services are currently exempt from sales tax as either personal or professional services or non-enumerated services. As a necessary part, these services may include the collection and/or review of information in order to provide the purchaser with the true object of the service. Thus, a lawyer gathers personal information and draws up a will; an accountant gathers financial information and prepares tax returns; an engineer gathers building and construction information and creates blueprints. In all of these transactions, the object of the transaction is not the raw information itself. These type of services remain exempt from tax.

On the other hand, a business which provides access to any type of information (e.g. stock quotes, financial, legal research, property values, and marketing trends) through any means (e.g. an electronic database, subscription to a hard copy report) is selling an information service, because what the customer seeks in that transaction is the information itself. As of October 1, 2006, the sale of such an “information service” is subject to tax.

 

In other words, his accountant thinks that NICS is not taxable because it is not the primary object of your transaction. That is, you're not going to an FFL to buy a NICS check, you're going there to buy a gun, of which a NICS check is information required for that transaction. Is he right? Not a single clue here.

[nuclearheli 40]

I will respond because I have been asked but then I will not be following this thread any longer since my opinion is not the topic here nor am I posting it to have it debated. I am not giving legal or accounting advice nor am I suggesting you should go around not charging tax on NICS. I am simply stating what I was told when I asked the question to a tax professional. You must do what you feel is right. The debate on this thread is not going to change my position unless I am told to do so by my accountant.

 

The basis for not charging tax on NICS is for both reasons stated above. 

 

1. The NICS check is not the object of the sale.

2. These are fees charged to obtain government (federal) and State records and information from databases maintained by the state. 

 

There is no question that these two statements apply to NICS in my mind. Furthermore, the NJSP does not charge us tax on the information, simply because it cannot. 

 

Now if you are in the business of selling NICS checks where the actual NICS check was the object of the sale then it would be taxable. You are not selling NICS checks you simply passing along the "fee" paid for the information, which you are allowed to do. 

 

Now in some cases FFL's are charging more for the NICS check than they are being charged. I have never asked the question but I can see an issue here if you are profiting from the NICS check. My guess would be you would be charging tax on the profit in that case. 

 

Since I don't charge more than the $15, (less for transfer's and nothing for purchases) I have no interest in answering that question or paying my accountant for advice on something I don't do.

 

Back to business and back to the OP's topic, there was no intent to hijack this thread.

[Underdog 1,593]

The SS #... It's on your FID card.  So if your wallet is stolen, ooops!  Better not to keep it in there all the time. 

[PK90 3,571]

It's on your FID card.  So if your wallet is stolen, ooops!  Better not to keep it in there all the time. 

 

Are you sure? It is not on mine.

[remixer 1,645]

I'm curious why tax became the main point of this thread.   The OP only asked about SS numbers.

 

Seems to me the only reason tax was even mentioned was in a "pointing fingers" session.

[PK90 3,571]

Threads tend to drift on occasion.

 

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2

 

 

[Blacksmythe 71]

It's on your FID card.  So if your wallet is stolen, ooops!  Better not to keep it in there all the time. 

Nope not on mine either. My SBI # is on there which is the same # on my State security license. Yup just like an inmate....... When I got printed for a state agency I put my SBI and name on the form the lady looked at me and said, " you have a record?" I said no I'm a legal gun owner in NJ.....She laughed. Nice lady.

[ZED 54 1]

My old FID from 88 has my SSN. New one for change of address doesn't.

[HBecwithFn7 296]

Nope not on mine either. My SBI # is on there which is the same # on my State security license. Yup just like an inmate....... When I got printed for a state agency I put my SBI and name on the form the lady looked at me and said, " you have a record?" I said no I'm a legal gun owner in NJ.....She laughed. Nice lady.

 

 

My old FID from 88 has my SSN. New one for change of address doesn't.

 

If you supply SSN on the sts-033 (solely to clarify your identity), does it appear on the FID automatically, or can you request it not be displayed?

 

Also, who actually produces/prints the document itself?  The local LE agency, or the NJSP Firearms unit?

 

I don't mind supplying it to the municipality/state (they know it anyway), but would not want it on the docs (that may be shown to many others).

[Underdog 1,593]

False.  My SSN is NOT on my FPID. 

 

 

My SSN is on my FID card right by the signature.  If it wasn't put on yours, is there a space for it?

[Underdog 1,593]

I don't like the fact that it is on mine.  Next time I get permits, I think I will ask to get a new card and whether or not it will be on there.

[67gtonut 847]

not on mine..... not even a place for it

[halbautomatisch 60]

The older FID cards had a spot for your SS#, as well as the language about being able to "carry long guns" , the newer FPID cards do not either of these.