Death Penalty?

[Handyman 5,682]

If I ran the electric chair, the only time it would be turned off would be so it could cool off once in a while...

[Sixtytwo327 14]

Well, I'm kinda curious what benefit the death penalty provides. I mean besides making some people feel better, what actual benefit does society draw from the death penalty, compared with lets say life time incarceration.

 

This. I'm against it for many reasons, but one is directly applicable to this forum.

 

As most of us agree, "gun-free zones" and anti-gun legislation do nothing to stop crime. The people who decided to commit crimes do not care about the consequences. The exact same logic applies to the death penalty: people who have already decided to rob, rape, and kill do not think about incarceration or execution. The answer is, neither gun control laws nor the death penalty deter crime.

 

Do some criminals deserve it? Perhaps, but I don't trust the government to make that decision, and the government should not ever have that right. Do we desperately need prison reform? Yes. However, those are different topics with their own problems.

 

 

Do you personally think that us killing Osama Bin Laden, Timothy McVeigh, John Wayne Gacy, Ted Bundy were not warranted? 

 

Execution creates martyrs. They should have been kept alive, safe and well cared for, as guests of the society they tried to destroy. That's the best punishment.

[wink-_-wink 1]

 

Execution creates martyrs; they should have been kept alive indefinitely, safe and well cared for, as guests of the society they tried to destroy.

I dunno man, Gacy raped and killed 30+ teenage boys  and buried most of them under his own house in a crawl space... I can understand maybe kept alive, but not safe or well cared for.... If they are getting life, let them do life in general population with all the rest of the inmates... keeping them locked tight safely in a cell all by themselves, for years and years until they die alone is not justice.  That is just taking a problem, locking it in a closet and forgetting about it. 

[Vlad G 345]

I think that the "if not death then what" question is valid but secondary.   Once we go beyond the equalizing of body temperature with the ambient environment, I'm far less concerned as long as the punishment is reversible if we discovered we were wrong. Don't start chopping bits off or injecting people with permanently damaging chemicals, don't starve them to death, etc. Basically stay away from the cruel and unusual and I'm mostly ok with it assuming a high confidence level regarding guilt and assuming that the punishment matches the crime. I don't think we should send pot smokers to the lead mines (or to jail at all really) but I'd accept and recommend fairly unpleasant imprisonments for high grade criminals.

[Vlad G 345]

 keeping them locked tight safely in a cell all by themselves, for years and years until they die alone is not justice.  That is just taking a problem, locking it in a closet and forgetting about it. 

 

I don't really know that I care about justice, that leads back to eye for an eye. To my mind it is eliminating the problem. Think about it, the problem is not that he is lonely or in a closet (and btw for a lot of those crazy people being ignored and forgotten is a serious punishment) the problem is that they were killing people. Once you stop them from doing that, you solved the problem.

[WP22 1,558]

 

If not life or death, what alternatives would you guys be ok with?  Again stipulating 100% certainty, beyond any shadow of doubt, DNA proven violent crimes such as murder, treason, or as someone put above dealing with children, elderly, or mentally handicapped ( as a group I would cal the defenseless)

Life sentence.

[illy 1]

I believe indentured servitude went out with slavery. But as I said, I like the idea.

Slavery was abolished by the 13th Amendment. Here's the text:

 

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, ***except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted***, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

 

As for the death penalty, all for it if administered by a justice system I could trust.

So no.

[Babyface Finster 45]

If not life or death, what alternatives would you guys be ok with?  Again stipulating 100% certainty, beyond any shadow of doubt, DNA proven violent crimes such as murder, treason, or as someone put above dealing with children, elderly, or mentally handicapped ( as a group I would cal the defenseless)

When will you ever have 100% certainty? There have been numerous convictions overturned due to DNA evidence. Was there not 100% certainty prior to DNA technology? What will be the next technology that exonerates those convicted for whom DNA provided 100% certainty of guilt? Hell, even confessions have been proven unreliable.

 

There will never be 100% certainty. Period. Doubt will always exist. That's why the standard is "beyond a reasonable doubt."

[Newtonian 453]

That isn't justice, that is revenge.  It serves no benefit to the victims of the crime. I'd rather see criminals put to work and their labor pay for their incarceration and any excess be returned to victims.

All man made "justice" consists of some component of spite and revenge.

 

What's wrong with the death penalty: It's not based on scientific evidence but "testimony" and the same stupid adversarial system we employ for minor crimes. We should convene a panel of scientists, philosophers, whatever, to draw up a point system for sentencing someone to death. If you don't have enough points you get life in prison. I'm thinking x-number for various types of physical evidence, y-number for reputable eye-witnesses or "broad daylight" crimes. 

 

The number and extent of appeals is absurd. It's obvious that lawyers and judges go through these farcical proceedings for the sole purpose of creating work for themselves and others in the "justice" "system."

 

After meeting the required point totals listed above, serious criminals should be given one year to appeal, and then executed. 

[leahcim 680]

I dunno man, Gacy raped and killed 30+ teenage boys  and buried most of them under his own house in a crawl space... I can understand maybe kept alive, but not safe or well cared for.... If they are getting life, let them do life in general population with all the rest of the inmates... keeping them locked tight safely in a cell all by themselves, for years and years until they die alone is not justice.  That is just taking a problem, locking it in a closet and forgetting about it. 

Well, I would bet that general pop. would be tantamount to the death penalty for Gacy and his ilk.  And in his case, pretty sure that kind of punishment would fit the crime.

 

I do not have a problem with the death penalty per se--if someone has committed that type of crime, DP would certainly preclude recidivism.

 

My biggest concern with the DP is the irreversibility.  Starting from that fact, the argument goes that you better be very certain of guilt, which means lots of appeals and access to counsel (paid for by the state if defendant cannot afford it), etc.  And even then, in all but a handful of super-egregious cases, can you really be 100% certain?  This is why the cost to execute is going to be very high, and when properly applied, will only yield a small fraction of the eligible criminals for death.  Due to these issues, I have no doubt that a number of innocent people have been executed (the Innocence project probably knows of a few).

 

That being said, I still think that anyone who commits a death-penalty eligible crime should be locked up until they are dead, probably in PC--depending on the crime.  They should never again be allowed even the chance to hurt another person and they should never again see the light of day.  Plus severe restrictions on their activity (e.g. minimal food, no access to media or the outside world, and no books other than legal references and books, and maybe faith-based materials)

[Contrvlr 17]

Nidal Hassan , Jared Loughner , James Holmes

[DaveR 42]

That isn't justice, that is revenge.  It serves no benefit to the victims of the crime. I'd rather see criminals put to work and their labor pay for their incarceration and any excess be returned to victims.

 

I recall hearing of many a states roads being built by prisoners, but I guess unions and corruption prevent this now. Here they just pick up trash on side of the road.

 

Revenge would be letting the effected party's family "pull the switch".

[deerpark 83]

Just playing a bit of devils advocate here... even tho I am for capital punishment.

 

Do you personally think that us killing Osama Bin Laden, Timothy McVeigh, John Wayne Gacy, Ted Bundy were not warranted? 

 

Playing devil’s advocate as well.

 

A government sets up a patsy, then executes him…

 

Even with a trial but especially without.

[wink-_-wink 1]

When will you ever have 100% certainty? There have been numerous convictions overturned due to DNA evidence. Was there not 100% certainty prior to DNA technology? What will be the next technology that exonerates those convicted for whom DNA provided 100% certainty of guilt? Hell, even confessions have been proven unreliable.

 

There will never be 100% certainty. Period. Doubt will always exist. That's why the standard is "beyond a reasonable doubt."

I mean that when there is certainty... and I will give you an example...

I was working in a county jail in central Alabama.  My job was many things but I also was the court officer for a year.  I brought all inmates from the jail to the court, sat through court with them and everything.  We had one case that caused me to have to be stunned with a RACC IV stun belt because while in front of a jury, the inmate could not be in cuffs or orange because it gave an imposition of guilt.  So he wore a suit with the stun belt under and me with the remote trigger to set it off.  The case took place at a Walmart.  The convicted walked up to the man's (Brian) truck, had a few words, started to walk away, turned back and went to the truck door and pulled out a pistol and began firing.  Brian exited the truck and the convict starte to get in the truck but walked over to the now crawling man and shot him some more then took offi n the truck.  Brian was stopping to get diapers for his infant on his way home from work.  He was about 6 or 7 spaces back from the front door.  The security camera captured the whole thing clear as day... they also caught the convict with the truck and with the gun.  His co-defendant testified against him in exchange for life plea.  Calvin McMillan was the first person to be given the death penalty in @ 30 years in Alabama. Also the jury reccomended life without and the circuit judge overturned it and gave him the death penalty! I watched this man in court, I watched as they showed the family of the victim the security tape.  the zero remourse... the cold bloodedness... it was horrible. 

 

so YES I do think that there are cases where there is 100% certainty... only because I have seen this first hand.

 

The picture in the link cuts me off but it was at his sentencing hearing i am to his right....

 

http://alada19.com/inthenews2009/090810.htm

[wink-_-wink 1]

Playing devil’s advocate as well.

 

A government sets up a patsy, then executes him…

 

Even with a trial but especially without.

Of those listed who was a patsy?  Possibly Bin Laden I guess but that's a stretch.  McVeigh wasn't, he was proud of what he did and has been quoted saying his only regret was not leveling the building.  It would be hard to bury nearly 30 boys under another persons house so I dont think that applies to Gacy.  And lastly Bundy admitted to killing like 30 women.  He had kept a few of their severed heads in his apartment.  He also had sexual encounters with his victims after they were dead, multiple times.  If memory serves me he would do that until the animals made sleeping with the corpse impossible. 

 

Now I am not so niave to think that our gov doesnt have the ability or hasnt already done this.  I think it is more of a movie theme but I am sure a small amount of this does exist.  Movies like Shooter, or Jack Reacher were great but I just don't see it happening as a standard operation. 

 

Again not getting feelings into it and playing devils advocate for sake of the debate.  My personal belief is the DP takes too long, cost too much but is absolutely needed.

[wink-_-wink 1]

wink-_-wink, on 27 Mar 2014 - 10:39 PM, said:

 

If not life or death, what alternatives would you guys be ok with?  Again stipulating 100% certainty, beyond any shadow of doubt, DNA proven violent crimes such as murder, treason, or as someone put above dealing with children, elderly, or mentally handicapped ( as a group I would cal the defenseless)

 

 

 

Life sentence.

[JSF01 13]

I do not have a problem with the death penalty as a concept as there are definitely people that deserve it (hell there are some criminals that I think deserve very cruel an unusual punishments). I however do not trust the government (or anyone besides myself) with that power. Sure with 100% proof positive a person committed a crime many people don't have a problem, but what about 99.9%?

[WP22 1,558]

 

wink-_-wink, on 27 Mar 2014 - 10:39 PM, said:

 

If not life or death, what alternatives would you guys be ok with?  Again stipulating 100% certainty, beyond any shadow of doubt, DNA proven violent crimes such as murder, treason, or as someone put above dealing with children, elderly, or mentally handicapped ( as a group I would cal the defenseless)

 

 

 

Life sentence.

No other alternatives.

[wink-_-wink 1]

No other alternatives.

I would be ok with some sort of physical labor.  like that movie holes.  or what about we build a gladiator arena!!  Then we let death row/ life without parole guys choose to participate in the gladiator games!  they could sign legal waivers and could fight each other.  put it on pay per view and raise money to pay for the entire system as well as fund the correctional system... I would be oddly ok with that as long as they got to choose to participate.... maybe I was born in the wrong era lol

[Newtonian 453]

I think we should have the death penalty for a couple of dozen crimes.

 

For example murder, big-time malfeasance (are you listening, previous governor?), rape, kidnapping children, the more heinous of violent crimes, and others. Perhaps as well in cases where someone commits three violent crimes, e.g. three aggravated assaults. 

 

However I believe the penalty phase of these trials should be based not on b.s. as they are today but on physical evidence or a preponderance of eyewitness testimony.

 

For example a guy bludgeons someone to death on 41st and Broadway and 100 people see it. Or someone is covered with the victim's blood. Or the ballistics prove his gun was the gun used in the murder.

 

In those instances I'd give a six-month opportunity to disprove facts and facts only. Then the asshole fries.

 

In all other instances the death penalty becomes merely a situation where all the lawyers involved, including those hired by the state, drag things on forever. Life without parole.

 

 

[jackandjill 683]

The system has proven time and again that its likely to convict an innocent and/or apply the laws inappropriately.

 

Take these examples for inappropriate application of laws:

 

Rape:  He said, she said, hang him

Kidnapping Children: Wife / Husband charged with taking children

Molesting Child: 19 year old boyfriend convicted of molesting 17 year old consenting girl

Firearms Transport (Deviation):  Make criminal out of a guy who stopped for donuts

 

General problem with arming the system with death penalty, is it will be used maliciously (been done before). It will be used against people.

 

------------------------

 

Proper 2A and Stand Your Ground will solve majority of these problems. Then courts can figure out if the survivor deserve to be locked up.

[10X 3,320]

I think the crime of betraying the public trust, by elected officials should be punishable by death.

leave their lifeless bodies hanging at the entrance way to the gov't building...

 

I think in this case it could be a pretty good deterrent.

At the very least a public flogging, where every voter they represented was allowed to give them one whack. The bigger the trust you betray, the bigger the beat down you receive.

[EWC88 24]

I'm for it, I just wish they made it a faster process. I was watching some show that was doing interviews on prison mates and they were sitting there saying that they won't die by injection they'll just get life and die naturally. Pathetic

[jackandjill 683]

NJ will make it faster alright, for "Criminals" who deviated from a trip to the range. For real gang members, it will be status quo. Becareful what you wish for :-)

 

And an appropriate, related story http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php/topic/75956-death-sentence-for-being-a-bit-nutty/

[mipafox 438]

If I ran things there would be a lot less criminals and A-holes. A lot less people in general. Probably some extinct rodents, mustelids, and sea mammals as well.

[mipafox 438]

 

If I ran the electric chair, the only time it would be turned off would be so it could cool off once in a while...

 

What was the first thing that went through George W Bush's mind when he took the oath of President?

 

"Hmm... When I left Texas, did I leave the electric chair on?"

[WP22 1,558]

Until a way to reverse death is found, I'm against the death penalty.

Let's think about this for a second: do you, freedom loving patriots, want the same aholes that gave us the current gun laws to be deciding which crimes are punishebable by death? Furthermore, do you really want 12 Oprah watching, low information voters, easily swayed mouth breathers to decided if you live or die?

I sure hell don't.

[mipafox 438]

Until a way to reverse death is found, I'm against the death penalty.

Let's think about this for a second: do you, freedom loving patriots, want the same aholes that gave us the current gun laws to be deciding which crimes are punishebable by death? Furthermore, do you really want 12 Oprah watching, low information voters, easily swayed mouth breathers to decided if you live or die?

I sure hell don't.

Don't leave any witnesses.

[Albanian 121]

It's not that I am against killing cold blooded murderers, it's just that innocent people get wrongfully convicted, thus I believe life in jail is the worst that should happen.

[Newtonian 453]

The system has proven time and again that its likely to convict an innocent and/or apply the laws inappropriately.

 

Take these examples for inappropriate application of laws:

 

Rape:  He said, she said, hang him

Kidnapping Children: Wife / Husband charged with taking children

Molesting Child: 19 year old boyfriend convicted of molesting 17 year old consenting girl

Firearms Transport (Deviation):  Make criminal out of a guy who stopped for donuts

 

General problem with arming the system with death penalty, is it will be used maliciously (been done before). It will be used against people.

 

------------------------

 

Proper 2A and Stand Your Ground will solve majority of these problems. Then courts can figure out if the survivor deserve to be locked up.

See my earlier post on a point system that could be adopted nationally.

 

As long as lawyers are lawyers you're never going to end arrests and convictions based on human error, prosecutorial misconduct, suppressed testimony, or flimsy/no evidence. But science-based criteria for capital sentencing raise the bar significantly above mere legalisms and procedure, and will at least keep innocent individuals off death row.

 

So unfortunately you can still convict based on the "eyewitness" account of a legally blind 90 year old who was half a mile away, but you can't sentence that person to death based solely on that testimony.

 

The only drawback of the death penalty administered in that fashion is it might produce more victims in situations where the perp knows he's already facing the chair. Why not take down a few more cops or innocents? We might have to study history in that regard: Did criminals who almost certainly faced the DP 80 or 100 years ago engage in further wanton acts?