Lecky 1 Posted July 22, 2014 An out of shape 60 year old guy has no business fighting two twenty-year-olds unless the alternative is death or serious injury, if his life or that of a loved one were on the line. I would rather have to reupholster my seats than recover from having my head cracked open. A car sitting in a driveway 40 feet away is just not worth it. Call the cops, press the alarm button. Shit happens, and not every story has a happy ending. I hear what your saying, although I'm not an out of shape 60 yr old;-) my first reaction was boy I would have loved to have caught these fuckers, I was pissed and felt violated, I bust my ass for the shit I have, so don't fuck with it. I know everyone's reaction is should have locked the doors (blah blah) And 98% of the time I do. I would love to go back to the days when someone wronged you, you give them a smack, run into the deli left your car running, never worried about locking your house, could leave anything in your yard and never worried about it, That's how I grew up, people had respect, compassion, morals and love in their heart. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSD1026 48 Posted July 22, 2014 Unfortunately, two words come to mind.. Long.... and gone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Newtonian 453 Posted July 22, 2014 I hear what your saying, although I'm not an out of shape 60 yr old;-) my first reaction was boy I would have loved to have caught these fuckers, I was pissed and felt violated, I bust my ass for the shit I have, so don't fuck with it. I know everyone's reaction is should have locked the doors (blah blah) And 98% of the time I do. I would love to go back to the days when someone wronged you, you give them a smack, run into the deli left your car running, never worried about locking your house, could leave anything in your yard and never worried about it, That's how I grew up, people had respect, compassion, morals and love in their heart. I never lock the car doors when they're in the driveway. I often don't lock 'em when I'm out and about either. My car looks like crap and there's nothing of value inside except for a pool cue, if they could find it under all the junk. So I don't blame you for that. I would love to see a video of you slapping those guys up and down, one of them crapping in their pants, the other one crying for his mommy. And both of them vowing never to commit another crime. Fantasy. Reality is that once you confront a scumbag you have no idea what they're up to, what they're carrying, how they will react. If you beat them up they'll almost certainly sue you. Most of the time they'll run away. But if they come after you -- people on drugs have been known to do crazy things -- you're in some pretty serious shit my friend. At that point, unless you're an expert in martial arts and you can hold both of them until the cops arrive (see Milpafox's post on police response) the good outcomes are few and far between. I know, I know, they'll probably be career criminals, will probably go on to do much worse things, when they croak even their mamas won't miss 'em, and the world will continue to spin on its axis if a meteor were to strike both of them. I actually believe all of that. Still, we sort of live in a civilized country where there are sort of laws and, right or wrong, consequences over which we often have no control. So vent here as much as you like, but be smart. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,664 Posted July 22, 2014 Here's the thing. If you initiate a confrontation when you could have walked away, and it turns serious to the point where DPF is authorized, and you win, you are still culpable. You can't purposefully put yourself in an avoidable life threatening situation and then use deadly force and be fully justified. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mipafox 438 Posted July 22, 2014 Here's the thing. If you initiate a confrontation when you could have walked away, and it turns serious to the point where DPF is authorized, and you win, you are still culpable. You can't purposefully put yourself in an avoidable life threatening situation and then use deadly force and be fully justified. I don't know if that is true or not in Jersey but it is not true in most states. Using force to expel trespassers or defend property is almost universally legal in the US and doing it does not one bit reduce your ability to use lethal force later if necessary. Initiating a confrontation with somebody engaged in legal behavior is a completely different animal than what we are discussing here, and makes you the aggressor, which puts additional requirements on you (such as retreat, a default in some states) in many states. Back to the PA example, you can certainly use force to expel trespassers or defend property. And, as previously mentioned, on paved areas connected to your house there is a default presumption that you are in fear for your life unless somebody else is authorized to be there. And there is statutory immunity against civil judgment. Just as in my house or my car. So I am not culpable. Like I said, your mileage may vary in Jersey. But this is sort of a three or four way discussion including Newtonian and he accepted opening it up to other places. Not going to dwell on it, just for informational purposes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Purple Patrick 638 Posted July 22, 2014 What happened to being tried by 12 instead of being carried by 6 ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mipafox 438 Posted July 22, 2014 What happened to being tried by 12 instead of being carried by 6 ?Let's be realistic. Somebody breaking into your car is probably not going to kill you, and you often have more self defense rights (I'm guessing in Jersey, especially in places with no SYG laws) and certainly better "appearances" if forced to defend yourself in your home. But for some people that would mean they would be robbed on a daily basis because there is no police service, or it takes hours at a minimum. For others, they aren't going to take crap from thugs and are going to use legal force, hopefully with the realization (outside of jersey) that there is always some legal peril in such matters. Not carried by 6 not relevant with the scenario being faced. But "we have to call the cops and hide" is not the way it is done nationwide, there is simply a lack of familiarity with the ways things work most places here. It's also completely impractical in some places, including places in PA. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Purple Patrick 638 Posted July 22, 2014 I'm sorry I'm in north Carolina and all this carrying everywhere anytime must me getting to my head:D Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DeerSlayer 241 Posted July 23, 2014 When I read this thread the movie American History X comes to mind. The stereo in my truck is insured so is the rest of the truck as well as the driveway it sits in. Theres a reason I pay insurance, this is one of them. As much as anyone would love to run outside and stomp the scumbag out thats desecrating your property, think of the consequences. The cops in my town live for stuff like this, not much exciting happens here. Most of them are my buddies if they hear a call go out for my house three minutes later there are 4 cars in the driveway. Small town with a lot of police. That's why I pay taxes so they get the bloody knuckles not me if I can avoid it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryan_j 0 Posted July 23, 2014 In PA a driveway is a paved area (usually) connected to your house. So just like in your house, anybody with no right to be there provides a default presumption that you are in fear for your life and justified to use deadly force. If it's your mother in law or they are wearing a PP&L Electric hardhat then it is a rebutable presumption but the burden of proof is still on the prosecutor that you were not in fear for your life Wasn't there a guy who got his LTCF revoked for shooting someone who was trying to break into his car? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryan_j 0 Posted July 23, 2014 Honestly I wouldn't even consider deadly force unless I thought my own life or my family's life was in danger and we had no means of avoiding it other than shooting the assailant. That I think is the safest rule to live by in NJ. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JTS1469 0 Posted July 23, 2014 Most of the people that have replied to this thread must be really good at thinking things thru. I for one would not be that controlled in the situation. I honestly don't think a firearm would have been my first thought for my car or items in it or even my fifth but I will say this. the feeling that comes with someone violating you or doing something at the place where my family sleeps would not be a mistake that I would let slip by. I'm not really sure how I would react but it would not be rational. I feel bad for anyone that this happens to even more so if the deed is done and there left without any recourse. Going over the silly laws in this state could take a lifetime if someone's at my front door looking for an easy mark they've come to the wrong address. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryan_j 0 Posted July 23, 2014 What happened to being tried by 12 instead of being carried by 6 ? Do you really want to endure a trial if your life is not in danger? Think of all the crap that George Zimmerman got. If your life is not in danger you will probably be found guilty of murder in NJ. In a state like Texas you can defend property with your firearm but you will still be subjected to civil lawsuits and other headaches. "Stuff" is not worth it. My daily driver is 10 years old, if they want it, they can have it! Insurance can pay for new stuff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Handyman 5,682 Posted July 23, 2014 Glad you are all willing to have your insurance rates go up! Whatever happened to the Uncle Joe Biden warning shotgun blast?!?!?!? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DeerSlayer 241 Posted July 23, 2014 Glad you are all willing to have your insurance rates go up! Whatever happened to the Uncle Joe Biden warning shotgun blast?!?!?!? Ask that lady in Florida about the warning shot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Newtonian 453 Posted July 23, 2014 I don't know if that is true or not in Jersey but it is not true in most states. Using force to expel trespassers or defend property is almost universally legal in the US and doing it does not one bit reduce your ability to use lethal force later if necessary. Initiating a confrontation with somebody engaged in legal behavior is a completely different animal than what we are discussing here, and makes you the aggressor, which puts additional requirements on you (such as retreat, a default in some states) in many states. Back to the PA example, you can certainly use force to expel trespassers or defend property. And, as previously mentioned, on paved areas connected to your house there is a default presumption that you are in fear for your life unless somebody else is authorized to be there. And there is statutory immunity against civil judgment. Just as in my house or my car. So I am not culpable. Like I said, your mileage may vary in Jersey. But this is sort of a three or four way discussion including Newtonian and he accepted opening it up to other places. Not going to dwell on it, just for informational purposes. I think you misinterpreted my original comment about deadly force. I was trying to say that even if you're 100% safe from civil or legal action, it's still insanity to confront two criminals. How soon we forget that we obey laws and they don't. Lots of people die during the commission of an otherwise minor crime. Why would anyone leave the safety of their home and risk getting hurt or killed over a stupid car? If you find yourself literally at the crime scene, or you're being carjacked, that's a different story. You're right that NJ folk don't "get it," but I think my position is sensible wherever you may live. Add to that the uncertainty of NJ law regarding guns and initiation of the use of force, and to me it's a no-brainer. Discretion is the better part of valor. Stay inside. This is a poster child situation for calling the cops, in my opinion. BTW I've had to call police twice in the last 25 years. They've been at my door in less than three minutes both times. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AlDente67 563 Posted July 23, 2014 Or move to LBI. We spent the week there without locking anything, house, cars, stuff stored outside. Nobody touches anything. I'm always amazed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
remixer 1,645 Posted July 24, 2014 In your drive way you can "Yell at them while you have your cell phone in hand" Jersey protects the criminals not the law abiding citizen. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silverado427 10,730 Posted July 24, 2014 Jersey protects the criminals not the law abiding citizen. This is how politicians stay in power Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
remixer 1,645 Posted July 24, 2014 That and Payoffs Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Newtonian 453 Posted July 24, 2014 Or move to LBI. We spent the week there without locking anything, house, cars, stuff stored outside. Nobody touches anything. I'm always amazed. Famous last words. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fishnut 2,358 Posted July 24, 2014 ^^ yup I had my locked truck broken into in Beach Haven Terr on NJ ave on LBI about 10 or 11 years ago. all that was stolen was a bunch of CD's though. I was pissed that they smashed my window just for some CDs. During the summer its all out of towners mostly and who knows where they are from. during the winter you most likely don't have anything to worry about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted July 25, 2014 Do you really want to endure a trial if your life is not in danger? Think of all the crap that George Zimmerman got. If your life is not in danger you will probably be found guilty of murder in NJ. In a state like Texas you can defend property with your firearm but you will still be subjected to civil lawsuits and other headaches. "Stuff" is not worth it. My daily driver is 10 years old, if they want it, they can have it! Insurance can pay for new stuff. I think that mindset is different in other places.. like Mipafox was saying.. assuming that going outside and telling someone to get out of your car is not a default action that puts you in danger.. you are simply securing your property.. telling a trespasser to leave.. the act in itself is not the ultimate action that puts your life in danger.. your life being in danger ONLY happens when said criminal then tries to attack you.. and in PA you have a right to tell someone to get out of YOUR car.. my guess is in NJ you probably still have that right.. can you run out there with a shotgun? no.. probably not.. but I am willing to bet if you went outside to tell someone to get out of YOUR car.. and you ended up being attacked and in turn defended yourself (without a gun) you would not be "in trouble"... in PA we can the right to carry guns.. so the same line of thinking applies.. I am not going out there to "look for a fight" I am going outside to figure out why some scumbag is breaking into my car.. and if at that point my life becomes in danger.. and I shoot.. then IMO (in PA at least) the law is on my side.. it is frustrating to me to see people conditioned to be victims.. its YOUR stuff.. its YOUR car.. sure its insured.. but there is also right and wrong.. and your property.. that you worked hard to own is being violated... being conditioned to assume no right to protect it sucks.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silverado427 10,730 Posted July 25, 2014 As a law abiding citizen I'm appalled by the fact in NJ, When some scumbag is robbing or causing harm to your personal property, Your only legal actions are to. Option A pick up the phone a call the police or Option B run and hide and dismiss it as part of a way of life. There is no lesson to be learned if there is no deterrence to crime. JMHO. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Newtonian 453 Posted July 25, 2014 .. it is frustrating to me to see people conditioned to be victims.. its YOUR stuff.. its YOUR car.. sure its insured.. but there is also right and wrong.. and your property.. that you worked hard to own is being violated... being conditioned to assume no right to protect it sucks.. No-one is saying that you don't have a right to scare the guys off, to meet force with force if necessary; nobody is advocating being a helpless victim. You have a right to protect your property in NJ, in PA, everywhere. That doesn't mean that you should in any and all circumstances. As I wrote in a previous post discretion is the better part of valor. We need to pick our battles. My Utah carry instructor spent about half an hour on the topic of when to pull your gun. He advised us to make a mental list of who we'd pull the gun out for, and under what circumstances. His list, he told us, was very short. I have a similar list of possible events and circumstances that would prompt me to enter a situation where I had to fight two punks forty years younger than myself, most likely drunk or high, coming at me from two directions (driver and passenger side). Stealing my car radio when I'm safe indoors is not on that list. Situations like that are why God created 911. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Newtonian 453 Posted July 25, 2014 As a law abiding citizen I'm appalled by the fact in NJ, When some scumbag is robbing or causing harm to your personal property, Your only legal actions are to. Option A pick up the phone a call the police or Option B run and hide and dismiss it as part of a way of life. There is no lesson to be learned if there is no deterrence to crime. JMHO. Has nothing to do with NJ. You can carry a club, knife, or gun on your property. You can scare people off if they're on your property illegally by making loud sounds or threatening gestures. You can fight them with your fists if they attack you. You can even shoot them. But you have to deal with consequences that will be favorable 80-90% of the time. That other 10% is a real doozy though. Some of you guys talk about minor vandalism like it's the end of the world, like it's a violation of your pure-as-the-driven-snow virgin daughter's honor. What do you do when a truck kicks up a rock that cracks your windshield? When a strong wind destroys your favorite garden structure? When you sprain your ankle? When you accidentally sit on and break a $300 eyeglass frame? When you need to buy a new refrigerator? Shit happens. No need to cause more of it than necessary. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickySantoro 211 Posted July 25, 2014 OP, I live in 07676. Local PDs are always advising to make sure you lock doors and don't leave anything visible that might be attractive to thieves. The only situation I can recall of late from police reports where the vehicle was actually locked and broken into had an expensive laptop inside, clearly visible. All the other reported incidents were involving unlocked vehicles. We would all love to live in Mayberry where we don't need to lock anything, but the world has changed. Thieves are now (fill in PC correct term here) and we are just greedy for wanting to deny them a means of employment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Porthole 15 Posted August 5, 2014 Most of the people that have replied to this thread must be really good at thinking things thru. I for one would not be that controlled in the situation. I honestly don't think a firearm would have been my first thought for my car or items in it or even my fifth but I will say this. the feeling that comes with someone violating you or doing something at the place where my family sleeps would not be a mistake that I would let slip by. I'm not really sure how I would react but it would not be rational. I feel bad for anyone that this happens to even more so if the deed is done and there left without any recourse. Going over the silly laws in this state could take a lifetime if someone's at my front door looking for an easy mark they've come to the wrong address. I don't understand why someone would post on a public firearms forum that there may be some mental instability Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tunaman 552 Posted August 5, 2014 I do not see where an "irrational reaction" equates to "mental instability"... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites