Will we see a rise in ND's ?

[Shane45 807]

I'm watching the rise of striker fired pistols. I know the glock has been around a long while. And indeed it is striker fired. But.... the new iteration of fully cocked striker fired pistols with 5lb triggers and short resets are gaining in popularity very quickly. VP9, PPQ, P320. I see a lot of people going this route. It has me concerned. Im not that concerned by those that are regulars at the range. But a vast majority of people that shoot are of the variety of maybe a box of ammo a year. If a lot of that type of shooter is buying that kind of pistol, I think we are going to see a rise in ND's. What say the forum?

[DeerSlayer 241]

Is an "ND" a "non intentional Discharge"?

[pjd832 146]

Is an "ND" a "non intentional Discharge"?

negligent discharge....

[DeerSlayer 241]

negligent discharge....

Thanks! I was close lol...

[High Exposure 5,664]

I think the people having NDs would have them regardless of the platform.

 

A good friend of mine was NYPD during the years they transitioned from wheel guns to semis. He said the guys that had NDs with the semis were the same that had ND with the revolvers.

 

Stupid is stupid

 

ETA: Anecdotally, the 12lb NYPD trigger did nothing to alleviate NDs either.

[mikka1 2]

I might be wrong and I have nothing to substantiate my point of view, but I guess that the majority of NDs are cases when the person consciously squeezes the trigger (for fun, for dry-firing etc.) thinking that there is no round in the chamber and there actually is - in such a case trigger pull or firing system really make no difference.

I don't know how many NDs happen because of a wrong grip while drawing a gun from holster that results in finger pretty much falling on a trigger, but I guess there aren't too many of those...

[Vlad G 345]

Negligent discharges are a function of negligence, not of the mechanical platform. I could argue that light trigger 1911's would be prone to ND's as well because people are negligent with where they keep their fingers.  Keep in mind that 'traditional' SA/DA guns were mostly only really shot in SA by most random shooters and it is not as if SA triggers haven't been 5lb and short and so on for some time.

 

The only thing that is slightly more likely it the whole "I trapped my apparel in my trigger when holstering" thing but really that probably always happened.

 

I'd say we see more ND's because we have more camera's and more people carrying guns then because of the method of making booms.

[Shane45 807]

I could see a zero net difference in situations where "I thought it was empty". I think Im focusing more on while handling a hot weapon. In a 1911 you still have the thumb safety saving you (provided you don't prematurely go off safe). But I do agree a 1911 would likely be in the same category which is why I do not recommend them to new/casual shooters. But for some reason, even from somewhat seasoned shooters, them cocked and locked 1911's are dangerous but a fully cocked VP9 is just fine

[Vlad G 345]

Shrug. I don't think I ever heard anyone say, in person, that C&L 1911s are not safe. I would have remembered cause I would have ridiculed them.

[Shane45 807]

Ive had to do a lot of ridicule...er um education!

[Blake 50]

After our chat the other day at the range it made me think about the Shield I have for carry out of state.  While I agree with your point about being able to hold the hammer (especially on a V2 or V1) making you secure for holstering, after holstering/drawing/re holstering the shield I think I am confident no ND's will happen.  As with anything practice is going to be key, and anyone who decides to own a firearm should resolve themselves to be proficient with it.

 

Do I see a class on proper handgun draw/fire/holster coming to a range near us??

 

BTW I used your tips this week and did find I had better control, despite needing to adjust my trigger finger somewhat

[diamondd817 827]

Glocks have been the best selling handguns in America for years. I don't see any increase in ND's happening.

[Vlad G 345]

Glocks have been the best selling handguns in America for years

 

Err that's really not true, you know that right?

[Old School 611]

Err that's really not true, you know that right?

 

Statistics vary... but they all seem to agree Ruger is the #1 selling manufacturer.

[diamondd817 827]

Err that's really not true, you know that right?

Really? What pistol is more owned by Americans then Glock?

 

When I go to the range I see Glock, Glock, Glock, Beretta, Glock Glock , Glock, Sig, glock, Glock, well you get the point.

[MedicYeti 96]

I understand your thought process: easier trigger pull makes an accidental trigger pull a little easier.  I believe that ND's are the fault of the person holding the gun, not the gun itself. 

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Statistics vary... but they all seem to agree Ruger is the #1 selling manufacturer.

 

Agreed.  Glock's entry to the CCW market is decidedly lacking.  Ruger's been leading that pack for years.  But Glock gets serious volume through its PD sales.

[Vlad G 345]

Really? What pistol is more owned by Americans then Glock?

 

When I go to the range I see Glock, Glock, Glock, Beretta, Glock Glock , Glock, Sig, glock, Glock, well you get the point.

 

You must go to a boring range

 

Ruger has been selling quite a lot of guns for many years, and keep in mind that Glock doesn't make a "single" gun, just like Ruger, S&W, etc make many different guns. Also think how many different manufacturers make 1911's.

[tony357 386]

1911 has been the most owned but in recent years that could have changed. it would be interesting to see the statistics from the last 8 years..

 

If i remember right few years back Kimber was the # 1 selling 1911 the numbers were high..

[tony357 386]

for 2012 out of all rugers pistols and revolvers seem to be mixed in their numbers. 865,00 plus pistols for 2012 that is alot of different makes and models..

 

glock is at 131,000 plus..  

 

kimber 121,000 plus with a lot of other manufactures that make the same 1911's 

 

im thinking 1911 win out the model manufactured..

 

http://www.shootingindustry.com/u-s-firearms-industry-today-2014/

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.sportsmansoutdoorsuperstore.com/best-selling-guns-2014.cfm/top_selling_1911_handguns

[Shane45 807]

Blake, glad I can help. On the topic of carry, keep in mind my holster is appendix carry where a negligent discharge would upset women everywhere, thus more concerning . Also consider that re-holstering while calm at home, is a different affair if you just had a violent confrontation.

 

Diamondd817, first, a glock is not fully cocked like this latest iteration of striker fireds, that have a pretty darn light smooth trigger. Second, look at the statistics of PD's going to glocks. Many departments observed a rise in ND's. Some even turned around and dumped the glocks as a result. Training issue? Of course, but it still makes the point.

 

Medic Yeti, just for clarity, ND's are indeed the fault of the person, AD's are the fault of the weapon.

[diamondd817 827]

Blake, glad I can help. On the topic of carry, keep in mind my holster is appendix carry where a negligent discharge would upset women everywhere, thus more concerning . Also consider that re-holstering while calm at home, is a different affair if you just had a violent confrontation.

 

Diamondd817, first, a glock is not fully cocked like this latest iteration of striker fireds, that have a pretty darn light smooth trigger. Second, look at the statistics of PD's going to glocks. Many departments observed a rise in ND's. Some even turned around and dumped the glocks as a result. Training issue? Of course, but it still makes the point.

 

Medic Yeti, just for clarity, ND's are indeed the fault of the person, AD's are the fault of the weapon.

Are you 100% sure those new striker fired pistols are fully cocked? Last time I looked into that, it wasn't the case at all. A fully cocked pistol would put them into the SAO pistol category. They are all marketed as DAO pistols.

 

I have nothing againt ruger, I own a few myself. But they also sell 22lr pistols and revolvers which contribute to that number. I can't remember the last time I saw a Ruger semi auto pistol being fired at the range besides the LCP.

[Krdshrk 3,877]

The only striker fired pistol that I know of that's considered cocked is the Springfield XD...  Possibly the XDS as well (I assume so)...

[Vlad G 345]

That is very much a grey area. Is a M&P fully cocked? Well technically the sear does move the striker back a bit, but not really. A lot of guns are somewhere in between the longer Glock movement and the really short XD one.

[Shane45 807]

Id rather not get derailed into the grey area. I agree with Vlad that it is somewhat grey. But forget about the technicality of mechanics for a second. Pull the trigger on a VP9 or PPQ and you will see what I mean...

[redwings9 5]

For about 15 years in my previous life I was responsible for investigating our agencies unauthorized firearms discharges that saw me travel across the country. Almost every initial incident report listed the event as accidental discharge...... However in all of the cases I was involved in, which included revolvers,semi autos,shotguns and M4's it all boiled down to negligence or as they say in the aviation industry. PILOT ERROR..... I had one job involving a privately owned (unauthorized) 2 shot derringer that supposedly fell to the ground and went off striking the guy in the buttock. I did get the weapon to fire duplicating the scenario layed out so there was one "accident" To many people get complacent and familiarity breeds contempt. Many of the same people were advanced shooters,firearms instructors and specialized team leaders. Fingers off the trigger and be safe. Almost forgot, years ago we had uzi's and they were an instructors nightmare. More on range ND than all weapons combined. Think short barrel,open bolt firing......heavy and people placing fingers in the trigger guard while trying to charge the bolt in preparation of firing and neglecting to ensure the safety was put on safe between firing phases.

[mipafox 438]

Almost forgot, years ago we had uzi's and they were an instructors nightmare. More on range ND than all weapons combined. Think short barrel,open bolt firing......heavy and people placing fingers in the trigger guard while trying to charge the bolt in preparation of firing and neglecting to ensure the safety was put on safe between firing phases.

If you want safety with open bolt, it's cocked and locked. It's a lot more frightening than a 1911, but the gun is most likely to fire with the bolt closed on an empty chamber (which is always the case with open bolt) or while working the bolt to charge or even clear a jam. Even Safe won't help you with a closed bolt on an empty chamber or clearing a jam if you don't pull the bolt back far enough to catch. Outside of battle or a forgiving range you drop the mag before clearing a jam on an open bolt SMG.

[redwings9 5]

Fox think about what you said and not to get in a pi$$ing contest but an open bolt weapon in the closed position with the chamber empty is in my opinion a club, and you are correct remove source of ammunition , clear chamber and you are back to an expensive club.... The Uzi is no more or less frightening then any other weapon. Key to this is finger,trigger,and operator adhering to on target on trigger off target off trigger. I realize you are an MG guy and experienced in their operation this was JMOP...... And some previous experiences related to ND's....... Regards and be safe.

[mipafox 438]

 

Fox think about what you said and not to get in a pi$$ing contest but an open bolt weapon in the closed position with the chamber empty is in my opinion a club, and you are correct remove source of ammunition , clear chamber and you are back to an expensive club.... The Uzi is no more or less frightening then any other weapon. Key to this is finger,trigger,and operator adhering to on target on trigger off target off trigger. I realize you are an MG guy and experienced in their operation this was JMOP...... And some previous experiences related to ND's....... Regards and be safe.

 

 

No pissing contest at all! I never suggested a closed bolt on an open bolt, I said it was dangerous. An open bolt gun with a closed bolt on an empty (as always) chamber is a gun that can accidentally go of. And they do. Anything that makes the bolt go back, such as dropping it, or pulling it, or the handle catching on something, can feed a round. That will make it fire by definition. You do not need to touch a trigger to make an open bolt gun fire if the bolt is closed. This is why open bolt guns are carried cocked (bolt open) and locked (safety on).

 

Many manufacturers have incorporated designs to allow a closed bolt to be a LITTLE safe, such as a notch for the cocking handle to keep it from opening under most handling, or turning the cocking handle to prevent it from moving. Now THAT is a club

 

I wasn't disputing anything you said at all, and I didn't. I was taking the opportunity to point out the unusual handling dangers of open bolt weapons (especially SMGs) to the community. Most normal people want the bolt down on an empty chamber if they want to be super extra safe. Most normal people start working the action on a gun if it malfunctions. Both can cause an open bolt to fire.

 

One I neglected to mention - failure to feed. Failure to feed in a handgun or AR or AK means you should take a look and clear it. Failure to feed on an open bolt means your weapon is about to go off at any moment. Because if that round chambers it's "Bang!" Aim it at the target, remove the mag and expect it will go off when you remove the mag if it hasn't already.

 

Because of the crappy ATF rules, these are not firearms most of us are familiar with even in semi, since only several thousand have been grandfather in semi.

[illy 1]

Obligatory-