Car Guys - Opinions needed on engine buildup

[mustang69 505]

For you muscle car guys:

 

The backstory - I'm doing another engine buildup for my Mustang.  The motor is a 302 .030 over, flat top forged pistons, stock stroke, Edelbrock aluminum heads, etc.  The reason for the build is to convert the cam to a roller.  I have most of what I need.  I pulled the heads to install the tie-bar roller lifters and have the new cam and lifters installed and the heads back on.  If it matters I installed a roller thrust washer on the cam retainer, replaced the valve springs and retainers to match the cam.  I've ordered the correct-length pushrods.  The cam is a Howards grind with 225/231 degree duration at .050, with .533/.544 lift on 112 center.  I should pick up some vacuum at idle and hopefully a couple horsepower over the flat-tappet grind I had.

 

A couple of choices I still need to make:  

 

Do I use a gear drive on the cam or a chain?  I have both.  I've searched the web and the power difference is negligible, the difference seems to be the noise.   The choice seems to be a religious decision based on some of the forums I've viewed.  Anyone here have any experience?

 

Do I use aluminum roller rockers or stainless steel?  The aluminum ones I have now seem fine, but with the extra pressure from the springs some more strength can't hurt.  But the old motor loved to rev.  With the heavier lifters and springs I'm wondering if even more weight in the rockers will matter.  Either will be the stock 1.6:1 ratio.

 

I know there are a couple of Ford fans out there...

Thoughts?

[67gtonut 847]

I am not going to be much help....  I have never built a motor....  But....

 

I would not bother with Gear Drive.....  a good solid Roller Chain is what I put in the GTO...... 

 

I would go with the stronger rockers as well.... for a street car, I would imagine the difference would be little....

[1LtCAP 4,264]

For you muscle car guys:

 

The backstory - I'm doing another engine buildup for my Mustang.  The motor is a 302 .030 over, flat top forged pistons, stock stroke, Edelbrock aluminum heads, etc.  The reason for the build is to convert the cam to a roller.  I have most of what I need.  I pulled the heads to install the tie-bar roller lifters and have the new cam and lifters installed and the heads back on.  If it matters I installed a roller thrust washer on the cam retainer, replaced the valve springs and retainers to match the cam.  I've ordered the correct-length pushrods.  The cam is a Howards grind with 225/231 degree duration at .050, with .533/.544 lift on 112 center.  I should pick up some vacuum at idle and hopefully a couple horsepower over the flat-tappet grind I had.

 

A couple of choices I still need to make:  

 

Do I use a gear drive on the cam or a chain?  I have both.  I've searched the web and the power difference is negligible, the difference seems to be the noise.   The choice seems to be a religious decision based on some of the forums I've viewed.  Anyone here have any experience?

 

Do I use aluminum roller rockers or stainless steel?  The aluminum ones I have now seem fine, but with the extra pressure from the springs some more strength can't hurt.  But the old motor loved to rev.  With the heavier lifters and springs I'm wondering if even more weight in the rockers will matter.  Either will be the stock 1.6:1 ratio.

 

I know there are a couple of Ford fans out there...

Thoughts?

to be honest, i didn't even know you could convert those old 302's to roller cam. it's an excellent idea though. with the roller cam, you can open the valves a LOT faster, and keep em open slightly longer.

 

 the closest i've ever built to what you're talking about, was my 89 gt. i kept the stock block 5 liter in there, installed an x303 cam(i forget what the exact specs are), alum. gt40 heads with1.9" exhaust valves, and 2.15"(i think....again, don't remember exact) intakes. i used the motorsport alum. full roller rockers, and gt40 intakes. that engine sent me down the 1320 in 12.2's at around 117mph. 6,000rpm launches all night long, 5500rpm shifts, and she took every single night of racing in stride. and she was my daily driver. of course she was injected, and had the bigger fuel pump, injectors, egr spacer, throttle body, mass airflow meter to support all that.

 

 as for gear/chain? i'd stick with the chain. my personal feeling is that the chain is stupid simple, and proven time and again.

[AS350Driver 56]

While you're at it stroke that sucker to a 347.

[1LtCAP 4,264]

i almost forgot.........you have the option of 1.6 or 1.73 rockers. the 1.6 are standard, 1.73 are boss.

[1LtCAP 4,264]

1985 and Later 302 Roller Cam 1.60 5° BTC 39° ABC 49° BBC 5° BTC 286° 286° .339 I .542 I 107° 117° 224° 224° .339E

.542 E

 

 

 

x303 specs. you pretty much wanna run a manual tranny

[Rob0115 1,105]

Someone will make a double chain for it which I would do. Gear is noisy and s pain in the butt to setup. Here's one and I think lunati make one too.

 

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-3120?seid=srese1&gclid=Cj0KEQiA2b20BRDj4buduIG-y9EBEiQAhgMGFeUo9EVI7-esqcFLwDhMHmslcnNYLwd9jEpGaJVieIcaAt9Y8P8HAQ

[Malsua 1,422]

I built my first small block Windsor in the late 80s.  My little 289 eventually got me into the high 11s.  Here's a pic from the first rebuild..  http://thewellrats.com/malbor2/pictures/backintheday/engine1.jpg

 

A good double roller timing chain is plenty.

 

As far as the rockers, unless your cam profile is extremely radical, it doesn't matter.    If you start breaking rockers, you'll know it's time for a change but I seriously doubt you'll have any issue.

 

A good friend of mine chased what you're chasing on his 1970 Chevelle, http://thewellrats.com/malbor2/pictures/backintheday/chevelle.jpg Roller cam, more radical cams, etc.   He got his car solidly into the 10s, but it was a trailer queen and very temperamental.

 

Some years on he switched to a blower with a milder cam(comparatively).   Now he drives it to cruise-ins and the track where he consistently runs in the high 9s, then he pulls into the pit area, puts on some street tires and drives home.   Just saying.

[mustang69 505]

While you're at it stroke that sucker to a 347.

Long story on that one.  When I got the car it was a rolling chassis with a short block in it and the Edelbrock RPM kit in the trunk.  I put it all together and drove it but it never really had the power I thought it should.  I dug into it and it turned out the compression was something like 7:1.  So I got the bright idea to change out the pistons, which I did for some forged flat tops. I bought the pistons and pulled the bottom end to get everything balanced.  Found out the crank was pretty scored up on one of the bearing journals, so bought a crank. When they were balancing everything I asked them to change the rod bolts to ARP.  In the end I have a rotating assembly that I've pretty much replaced everything, all because I wanted more compression.  Back then the 347 kits weren't common, and the ones out there had ring problems with the compression ring intersecting the wrist pin and not sealing well.  And I was trying to be cheap.  So now I have a rotating assembly that is all set to go.  As I'm putting everything together again I noticed something odd at top dead center - Half the piston was in the hole and 1/2 was out.  Turns out the block had been decked cockeyed.  So I buy another machined block and transfer the bottom end over.  Now I've got a completely new engine with the exception of the rods, and those have been upgraded.  It would have been so much easier to get a stroker kit or a crate motor.  Lesson learned (until now I guess).

 

Now, I thought it would be a fun project over the Christmas break to convert to the roller cam.  How hard could it be?  Lots of folks have done it I figured, and I can do a cam swap in an afternoon.  A cam and tie-bar lifters should do it.  Well, it only works that way for the magazine builds.  Turns out the heads need to come off to install the tie-bar lifters, which means the upper end needs to come off and the headers need to come out.  So far I'm into this swap for the cam, lifters, pushrods, valve springs, valve keepers & retainers, the valve spring compressor, head gaskets, intake gaskets, header gaskets, a header stud kit, a new front cover, front caver gaskets, water pump, timing chain and some heater hoses.  I still need to pull the oil pan so I can install the front cover, which means I need to drop the steering linkage.

 

The good thing is everything is clean and comes apart since I've rebuilt the car several times over the years.  Want a hobby more expensive than guns?  Try cars...    

[CageFighter 236]

I would have made it forced induction......but thats just me.  

[1LtCAP 4,264]

of course, the other thing ya could do, is to swap to a coyote.

[AS350Driver 56]

Long story on that one.  When I got the car it was a rolling chassis with a short block in it and the Edelbrock RPM kit in the trunk.  I put it all together and drove it but it never really had the power I thought it should.  I dug into it and it turned out the compression was something like 7:1.  So I got the bright idea to change out the pistons, which I did for some forged flat tops. I bought the pistons and pulled the bottom end to get everything balanced.  Found out the crank was pretty scored up on one of the bearing journals, so bought a crank. When they were balancing everything I asked them to change the rod bolts to ARP.  In the end I have a rotating assembly that I've pretty much replaced everything, all because I wanted more compression.  Back then the 347 kits weren't common, and the ones out there had ring problems with the compression ring intersecting the wrist pin and not sealing well.  And I was trying to be cheap.  So now I have a rotating assembly that is all set to go.  As I'm putting everything together again I noticed something odd at top dead center - Half the piston was in the hole and 1/2 was out.  Turns out the block had been decked cockeyed.  So I buy another machined block and transfer the bottom end over.  Now I've got a completely new engine with the exception of the rods, and those have been upgraded.  It would have been so much easier to get a stroker kit or a crate motor.  Lesson learned (until now I guess).

 

Now, I thought it would be a fun project over the Christmas break to convert to the roller cam.  How hard could it be?  Lots of folks have done it I figured, and I can do a cam swap in an afternoon.  A cam and tie-bar lifters should do it.  Well, it only works that way for the magazine builds.  Turns out the heads need to come off to install the tie-bar lifters, which means the upper end needs to come off and the headers need to come out.  So far I'm into this swap for the cam, lifters, pushrods, valve springs, valve keepers & retainers, the valve spring compressor, head gaskets, intake gaskets, header gaskets, a header stud kit, a new front cover, front caver gaskets, water pump, timing chain and some heater hoses.  I still need to pull the oil pan so I can install the front cover, which means I need to drop the steering linkage.

 

The good thing is everything is clean and comes apart since I've rebuilt the car several times over the years.  Want a hobby more expensive than guns?  Try cars...    

 

Yeah I know about the money pit that a fifty year old car can be. First car was a 65 convertible money pit, only 25 year old car at the time. Still wish I had that car back though.

[mustang69 505]

Yeah I know about the money pit that a fifty year old car can be. First car was a 65 convertible money pit, only 25 year old car at the time. Still wish I had that car back though.

It's not the 50 year old car that's the problem - it's the 52 year old owner.  I've redone everything on this already.  The body is all redone, the entire driveline has been replaced or rebuilt, the interior completely replaced, the entire suspension built.  The only thing stock is the basic exterior appearance, everything else has been modified.  Now I'm just playing. 

[siderman 1,138]

your 302 reminds me of my 68 cougar that had one. was going to do all kinds of rebuild to it but very fortunatly happened on a 70 351C with IIRC the M-code & only 4k on it and spared myself all that fun...had to use a shoehorn to fit and a few other tweeks but that sucker ran lol........wow thats almost 40 yrs ago!

[mustang69 505]

your 302 reminds me of my 68 cougar that had one. was going to do all kinds of rebuild to it but very fortunatly happened on a 70 351C with IIRC the M-code & only 4k on it and spared myself all that fun...had to use a shoehorn to fit and a few other tweeks but that sucker ran lol........wow thats almost 40 yrs ago!

One of the few cars I had that I wish I had back was my '68 Cougar xr7.  Had the 302 with a factory 4 speed.  Boy I miss that car...

[siderman 1,138]

One of the few cars I had that I wish I had back was my '68 Cougar xr7.  Had the 302 with a factory 4 speed.  Boy I miss that car...

mine had the factory 3 spd too but put the 4 in with the 351C which btw came out of an Eliminator that had a sad story with it. My dad thought i was nuts was his before mine. In retrospect the 302 IMO was one of he best overall engines ever made. 

[panteramatt 27]

I too have a 69 mustang a mach1 actually. Id love to see pics. Is it a fastback? I hate to tell you this but you have been wasting your time and $ here. If you wanted a roller you shoulda bought just that. But personally I woulda went with a windsor. 

[mustang69 505]

I too have a 69 mustang a mach1 actually. Id love to see pics. Is it a fastback? I hate to tell you this but you have been wasting your time and $ here. If you wanted a roller you shoulda bought just that. But personally I woulda went with a windsor. 

 

[panteramatt 27]

Freakin sweet car! Ours is very similar. Do that car justice and put a good heart in it!

[mustang69 505]

All I'm doing now is changing the cam and whatever else I need to because of that.  The short block is the same as I've been running.  Last dyno was 297 at the wheels.  Already has more power than traction.  I want to keep the smallblock because of the balance front/rear weight, and I want to keep the shaker hood setup I have - I built the car originally for street/strip and autocross.  If I were doing it all over again I'd make it a 331 or 347, but I'm not looking to replace the entire motor right now.  Yes it would have probably been easier in the long run, but then I wouldn't have had all the fun upgrading piece by piece...

[panteramatt 27]

I understand but a windsor is a smallblock and you can punch it to a 427 and its hardly weighs more than a 302. But either way 300rwhp is plenty fun Im sure. What tranny does it have?

[mustang69 505]

I understand but a windsor is a smallblock and you can punch it to a 427 and its hardly weighs more than a 302. But either way 300rwhp is plenty fun Im sure. What tranny does it have?

Trans is a t-5.   Rear is a 9" with 3.50 gears.  Entire suspension is built - Upper and lower a-arms, coilovers up front, Caltrac and 5-leaf in the rear.  Front & rear anti-roll bars, shocks are double adjustable.  Frame connectors.  

[panteramatt 27]

Nice. You dont wanna complete brand new 4r70w swap do ya? I bought everything needed but I want a manual. 

[1LtCAP 4,264]

Trans is a t-5.   Rear is a 9" with 3.50 gears.  Entire suspension is built - Upper and lower a-arms, coilovers up front, Caltrac and 5-leaf in the rear.  Front & rear anti-roll bars, shocks are double adjustable.  Frame connectors.  

save yourself some money and weight........an 8.8 will take pretty much of what you can do to that car, weighs less than the 9", and is cheaper to build.

[mustang69 505]

save yourself some money and weight........an 8.8 will take pretty much of what you can do to that car, weighs less than the 9", and is cheaper to build.

The 9" housing is the original rear that was in the car when I got it - it's the only piece of the original driveline & suspension that's still there.  Not that it matters but it's what I have.  No sense taking it out until I decide to do something else with the rear suspension, then it's probably an independent rear anyway. I already converted it to rear disc brakes.  Changing a coil-spring 8.8 over to a leaf-spring setup isn't hard, but why go through the trouble when I already have the 9", plus I have a couple extra pumpkins/gears already set up for the 9".

[mustang69 505]

Nice. You dont wanna complete brand new 4r70w swap do ya? I bought everything needed but I want a manual. 

The car was an auto when I got it.  I swapped it out for a toploader, then the t-5.  One of the easiest mods I've done.

[panteramatt 27]

If you don't mind could you message me some info on the swap? Any info would help.

[302w 83]

Are you running a stock T5? I've read they don't like the abuse. I want one for my 65 but I have enough work for now.

[panteramatt 27]

A T5 will easily handle what he has. Hell Im planning on running one with my 351 til I can afford a TKO600. T5 dont like high torque with slicks. 

[mustang69 505]

Are you running a stock T5? I've read they don't like the abuse. I want one for my 65 but I have enough work for now.

I'm running a 1990 World-Class box.  I'd like to get a z-spec from ford but prices went through the roof.  The T-5's don't like missed 1-2 shifts but can be pretty strong.  Plus they're cheap at the swap meets if you know what to look for.  I have 3 of them and didn't pay more than $100 each.  I know at least two of them work fine.  Just don't try and put a 4-cyl trans behind a v8.