Vicious 138 Posted June 2, 2016 Now I'm no expert, but I do have formal training, and this never came up. I was shooting with a coworker at a unnamed indoor Jersey range, and the RSO was watching us because we were the only ones in there. He comes up to us and tells me that I am holding the gun wrong. I wasn't having any trouble, or grouping bad, or anything negative for that matter. He insisted, however, that I had my strong hand on the pistol in an improper manner. Basically, he was telling me that where the tang of the gun was contacting my hand, it was hitting a nerve and it was going to cause me fatigue. I was at the 300+ round mark, and I hadn't noticed it... in fact, I ALWAYS hold my pistols the way I was holding it, and I NEVER noticed that issue. Anyway, trying not to be rude, I adjusted my hold, and I noticed that not only did it feel unnatural, but I had to consciously focus on turning my hand to keep the sights centered, and my hands would get shaky when pulling the trigger. He insisted it was better. My question is, is there any fact behind what he was saying? Is there some pressure point in your hand that you can hit while shooting that will fatigue your arm? Or is this dude just messing with me? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,664 Posted June 2, 2016 Sure there are wrong ways to hold a gun. Maybe "wrong" isn't quite right, but there are different techniques and grip styles you can utilize based on any issues you are having or what you are trying to improve in your shooting. I don't know about pressure points and all that though.... Even if you aren't having issues per-se, a slight change in your grip could help you shoot faster, or control recoil better than you were before resulting in a tighter shot group, or possibly faster split times. However, not enough info to go on here. What kind of gun? How were you holding it? What changes were suggested? Etc... Photos would likely be helpful. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lalo 13 Posted June 2, 2016 As long as you weren't using the "cup and saucer" grip.... It irks me when I see that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vlad G 345 Posted June 2, 2016 There are wrong ways to hold a gun, but the notion somehow how there is a nerve that causes fatigue seems kinda made up bullshit to me. Todd Jarret's old video is still valid, Shannon Smith has newer video showing basically the same thing. Bob Vogel has a slightly different take Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NYMetsFan86 9 Posted June 2, 2016 As long as you weren't using the "cup and saucer" grip.... It irks me when I see that. Just looking at the pictures annoys me Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shocker 151 Posted June 2, 2016 That's impressive. But it's the show that gave us this: Even before he was aiming through an eye patch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vicious 138 Posted June 2, 2016 High Exposure, I may need to take pictures, but I basically hold it how that guy in the first video Vlad G posted at about the 52 second mark. In the web of the hand, and in line with the forearm for a natural point. As long as you weren't using the "cup and saucer" grip.... It irks me when I see that. It had absolutely nothing to do with the support hand. He was only critical of my strong hand placement. No cup and saucer for me anyway. The particular gun I was using at the time he "corrected" me was my SIg p226. My right side is my strong side. He wanted me to turn the tang of the gun toward my palm. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vlad G 345 Posted June 2, 2016 He wanted me to turn the tang of the gun toward my palm. I can't picture what he was taking about. Post a picture. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vicious 138 Posted June 2, 2016 It was a little hard to get the pic, but I think you can see the difference. I definitely feel it. My way is on the left. His method lines the tang up more with the palm. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alec.mc 180 Posted June 2, 2016 There is a thread somewhere on the internet- " stupid stuff you here at gunshops " , or something. And something about butt holes and opinions Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alec.mc 180 Posted June 2, 2016 It was a little hard to get the pic, but I think you can see the difference. I definitely feel it. My way is on the left. His method lines the tang up more with the palm. First one is more gooder. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vlad G 345 Posted June 2, 2016 You are doing it right. He has no idea what he is talking about. Good advise from gun store/range employees is uncommon.. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vicious 138 Posted June 2, 2016 First one is more gooder. Thank you! That is more or less how I always hold. It was a little tough snapping the pic though. Just try it with any of your guns, it just feels wrong. I had a feeling he was nuts. You are doing it right. He has no idea what he is talking about. Good advise from gun store/range employees is uncommon.. He was so insistent that it made me question myself. I just had to know. haha I am always open to advice that can improve my shooting, but this just didn't seem like that kind of advice. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AverageJoe 95 Posted June 2, 2016 No idea what that RSO was talking about...the most common thing I see when watching the line is people with their support hand thumb out in left field(right thumb in right field for lefty shooters) and not against the frame giving full support to the weapon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
remixer 1,645 Posted June 2, 2016 This seems Popular 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GAPP 11 Posted June 2, 2016 Ive seen a version of that grip before (it actually has elements of Coopers teachings) but with a totally different rational. That grip isn't used because of a nerve that causes fatigue, its used in a push-pull grip.... right hand loose but pushing forward from the palm and left hand tight in the fingers pulling back on the front of the grip to create a stable front-back platform to hold the gun... it requires the weaver stance to be done right. I hate the grip/stance and continue to use and teach an isosceles stance and a grip like the one you started with. If you're professionally trained, stick with that training, not a 5 minute lesson from an RSO at a range. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krdshrk 3,877 Posted June 2, 2016 This seems Popular Gal Gadot is sexy. She's holding it Israeli style... 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robot_hell 72 Posted June 2, 2016 Even before he was aiming through an eye patch 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
remixer 1,645 Posted June 2, 2016 Gal Gadot is sexy. She's holding it Israeli style... Maybe South Central Tel Aviv Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vicious 138 Posted June 2, 2016 Ive seen a version of that grip before (it actually has elements of Coopers teachings) but with a totally different rational. That grip isn't used because of a nerve that causes fatigue, its used in a push-pull grip.... right hand loose but pushing forward from the palm and left hand tight in the fingers pulling back on the front of the grip to create a stable front-back platform to hold the gun... it requires the weaver stance to be done right. I hate the grip/stance and continue to use and teach an isosceles stance and a grip like the one you started with. If you're professionally trained, stick with that training, not a 5 minute lesson from an RSO at a range. Yeah, none of that was explained to me, so I'm getting the picture that he had no idea what was going on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Barms 98 Posted June 2, 2016 Maybe it's because if they had a week hand strong grip and extended arm then it would block the camera from seeing their mouths when they talk. Audio is everything on film. So don't think tactical training think TV production. Gotta see full head all camera angles. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alec.mc 180 Posted June 2, 2016 Maybe it's because if they had a week hand strong grip and extended arm then it would block the camera from seeing their mouths when they talk. Audio is everything on film. So don't think tactical training think TV production. Gotta see full head all camera angles. False. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krdshrk 3,877 Posted June 2, 2016 Keanu knows how to shoot properly... Unlike a lot of hollywood actors Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,664 Posted June 2, 2016 Ive seen a version of that grip before (it actually has elements of Coopers teachings) but with a totally different rational. That grip isn't used because of a nerve that causes fatigue, its used in a push-pull grip.... right hand loose but pushing forward from the palm and left hand tight in the fingers pulling back on the front of the grip to create a stable front-back platform to hold the gun... it requires the weaver stance to be done right. I hate the grip/stance and continue to use and teach an isosceles stance and a grip like the one you started with. If you're professionally trained, stick with that training, not a 5 minute lesson from an RSO at a range.THIS ^^^^ A lot of range instructors are really nothing more than "hole counters". They grade your targets - not your shooting. There is a huge difference. You have to know the HOW and the WHY to be effective and teach relevant TTPs. Sounds like this guy knew a How but not the Why of a certain technique. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,664 Posted June 2, 2016 Maybe it's because if they had a week hand strong grip and extended arm then it would block the camera from seeing their mouths when they talk. Audio is everything on film. So don't think tactical training think TV production. Gotta see full head all camera angles. I think you are right Barms. I think a lot of the shoddy firearms technique you see in movies and TV are in an effort to not obscure the headlining actor's face. Can it be done correctly where you see good technique and still see a recognizable actor - sure. But it's harder and more time consuming which translates to costing more. It easier (read: cheaper) to have an actor shoot from the hip than it is to set up and light a scene with proper technique that also allows their face to be seen clearly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
checko 180 Posted June 2, 2016 The A Team never had an issue. Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Purple Patrick 638 Posted June 3, 2016 Yea but those guys fired 5000 rounds an episode and never hit anything once! Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
10X 3,301 Posted June 3, 2016 I had to consciously focus on turning my hand to keep the sights centered If you had to turn your hand to center the sights, the grip was definitely wrong. Proper grip always results in centered sights. Take a page from how the bullseye/international pistol competitors do it. First, do everything you can to make sure your gun has a grip sized to fit your hand, so that when you apply pressure with the strong hand, the flats of the second bone of the fingers you grip with apply pressure straight back through the grip into the heel of your hand. The magic of an in-line grip is that slight changes in the amount of pressure you apply to the grip won't move the sights. If your grip is off, and from one shot to the next you apply slightly more or slightly less pressure, the sights will torque to one side or the other. True, it's hard to find a gun that will fit you perfectly (that's why target shooters invest so much time and money in custom grips, if their event allows it), but if you buy a gun with a grip size that isn't close to being right for you, you'll never shoot it well. To avoid fooling yourself into thinking your grip is correct, raise the gun with your eyes closed, stabilize your stance, then open your eyes. If the sights aren't aligned, use your free hand to slightly adjust the position of the gun in your grip hand, then repeat the process until the sights are aligned correctly. To fine-tune your grip, look at those perfectly-aligned sights, close your eyes, and grip harder...or less hard, then open your eyes and see if your sights are still aligned. If they aren't, your grip still needs some adjustment. I could go on and on about grip, grip fitting, etc, but instead I'll just refer you to the Army Marksmanship Training Unit's pistol marksmanship guide. http://www.saveourguns.com/Ar_Marks_Un_Pistol_Train_Guide.pdf Look at the sections on stance, position, grip, and sight alignment. The guide focuses on bullseye shooting, but the fundamentals will serve you well in any gun game. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vicious 138 Posted June 3, 2016 To avoid fooling yourself into thinking your grip is correct, raise the gun with your eyes closed, stabilize your stance, then open your eyes. If the sights aren't aligned, use your free hand to slightly adjust the position of the gun in your grip hand, then repeat the process until the sights are aligned correctly. To fine-tune your grip, look at those perfectly-aligned sights, close your eyes, and grip harder...or less hard, then open your eyes and see if your sights are still aligned. If they aren't, your grip still needs some adjustment. This has been my method for 6 years now. If it doesn't have anything to do with safety, I'm ignoring the RSO . This is why I need a membership somewhere. I was always taught that the your gun should point naturally and there should be almost zero effort to get the sights on target. The A Team never had an issue. Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk ... and now I really want a Ruger Mini... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites