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Frank Thomas

Is it worth trying for a gun carry permit to attend synagogue?

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Is it worth trying for a gun carry permit?  And the legal fees that will follow from my appeals?  I live in Monroe Township, NJ in Middlesex County.  I attend synagogue regularly.  Given the shootings at synagogues recently, do I have a justifiable need?  Is my first amendment, to freedom of religion, being infringed by not issuing me a license to carry.  My synagogue is perfectly fine with members carrying weapons.  We had a former FBI agent who carried.  I served in the Army for 30 years; inlcluding two combat tours.  As a 30-year retired Army combat vet, I'm well-qualified to own and operate a handgun.  Should I apply for carry permit; get rejected and start a lawsuit?  Or better waiting for the US Supreme Court to hear the two cases from NYC and NJ?  Any idea when the Supreme Court will rule on either the NYC or NJ cases?  Thanks

 

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We *ALL* have justifiable need, neither your choice of religion, nor your combat service (thank you), warrants any more special treatment than anyone else.

 

NJ wants you unarmed like sheep to the slaughter.

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34 minutes ago, Frank Thomas said:

Should I apply for carry permit; get rejected and start a lawsuit? 

Well, if you are really intent on getting a permit, be prepared for your life to revolve around that task.  If you have enough money and a good legal team, you can have a go at running  the gauntlet NJ has set up for anyone wealthy enough to make it to the end.

What ya need to do is have a few members at several synagogues apply, get denied and then file a class action lawsuit.  The Dems in Trenton will shit themselves.  They really really REALLLLLLY don't want to say yes, and they can't say no without looking really bad.

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24 minutes ago, USRifle30Cal said:

We *ALL* have justifiable need, neither your choice of religion, nor your combat service (thank you), warrants any more special treatment than anyone else.

 

NJ wants you unarmed like sheep to the slaughter.

^^^^THIS^^^^

And we at the Coalition of New Jersey Firearm Owners (are YOU a member YET?) fight every damn day to get our rights back!

Good guys with guns come in all shapes, colors, religions & sizes.  Some of us enjoy competitions to keep our skillz sharp.  Some of us are NRA Instructors, Chief Range Safety Officers, Distinguished Experts, Writers, Historians, Sons, Fathers, and Grandfathers.  Some of us are female and do ALL those things.

If the Shul wants to make the congregation "part-owners" legally on paper, THEN you can carry once you arrive on the property.  Just as if you were part owner of a bidness.  Not in your car on the way to the Shul, or from Shul to home.  Just while on the property.  I know this because I've researched it and I've had Police inquire about the very same thing!

Rosey, VP

Coalition of New Jersey Firearm Owners (CNJFO)

https://www.cnjfo.com

https://www.JustifiableNeed.com 

Image may contain: 2 people, including Anthony Colandro, camera

 

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If my understanding of the statutes (2C:38 and 58) is correct, you may transport handguns directly between properties you own/control.

If you become a "paper owner-in-part" of the synagogue, that would allow you to bring your handgun to the Temple.

Now, getting the Temple's Board of Directors to grant you that status, well that's another story altogether imho.

The only one I know in the Camden/Gloucester/Burlington County region that might would be the Chabad of Gloucester County in Mullica Hill. Good luck with any of the other BODs of the Conservative or Reform synagogues in the 3 county region. :mad: As Dennis Prager refers to them, they are self-hating Jews.

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11 hours ago, njJoniGuy said:

If my understanding of the statutes (2C:38 and 58) is correct, you may transport handguns directly between properties you own/control.

If you become a "paper owner-in-part" of the synagogue, that would allow you to bring your handgun to the Temple.

Now, getting the Temple's Board of Directors to grant you that status, well that's another story altogether imho.

The only one I know in the Camden/Gloucester/Burlington County region that might would be the Chabad of Gloucester County in Mullica Hill. Good luck with any of the other BODs of the Conservative or Reform synagogues in the 3 county region. :mad: As Dennis Prager refers to them, they are self-hating Jews.

@Tunaman  @njJoniGuy  is correct since the Shul itself becomes an EXEMPT LOCATION same as any other bidness you own (with a structure---since Hot Dog Carts aren't a "fixed location"---yes I know the laws THAT well!) :) 

As njJoniGuy points out, getting a Board of Directors, Elders, etc., etc., to "sell", "gift", or otherwise transfer ownership of the corporation, and to do so within both the confines of the articles of incorporation, bylaws, etc. of the tax-exempt entity (the Shul, Church, etc.) AND also not violate any federal of state laws pertaining to maintaining non-profit status, such as maintaining a dissolution amendment that's required of every non-profit,  so upon the dissolution of the corporation its' assets get transferred to a similarly typed non-profit, are just some of the technicalities to be dealt with.  The governing "body" of every non-profit that owns OR RENTS a 4-walled permanent structure MIGHT have to re-write its' BYLAWS in order to make the ownership transfer "work"...

So the "short answer" is easy, but in reality it takes WORK to bring it to fruition.

Rosey

Image may contain: meme, text that says 'THE DURATION OF A MASS SHOOTING ALWAYS DEPENDS ON THE ARRIVAL OF A SECOND GUN THE PATRIOT POST'

 

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I actually had this conversation with a Rabbi who called me.  It came down to this.

If the rabbi was on the leave or ownership of the building he would be covered but since most rabbis are NOT they would not be... Most (reform and Conservative )Rabbis are contracted to the temple by the temples elders / board members  and do not hold a Stake, Claim or lessee's of the property at all.

Maybe i should from my own congregation.... Mt Monmouth.... 

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Sadly In The republic of New Jermany Us subjects dont have any rights! they are chipping away peice by peice. So honestly i say why waste your time and money. Until ALL the gun owners come togeather and fight there is No hope for Our God Given Rights. But this is just my two cents.

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15 hours ago, Scorpio64 said:

What ya need to do is have a few members at several synagogues apply, get denied and then file a class action lawsuit.  

I think this is the most promising approach, it may ultimately be successful, and it would certainly raise awareness of how messed up NJ gun laws are.

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8 minutes ago, 10X said:

I think this is the most promising approach, it may ultimately be successful, and it would certainly raise awareness of how messed up NJ gun laws are.

That is not a Horrible Idea.... It would be even better if Multiple People from Different House of worship (Church's, Mosques, Temples) etc etc did it then coordinated when denied.

It would bring attention to this by using multiple people of multiple faiths.

Maybe even bringing letters from the heads of those congregations to the Carry hearings and submit onto the record.

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1 hour ago, remixer said:

That is not a Horrible Idea.... It would be even better if Multiple People from Different House of worship (Church's, Mosques, Temples) etc etc did it then coordinated when denied.

It would bring attention to this by using multiple people of multiple faiths.

Maybe even bringing letters from the heads of those congregations to the Carry hearings and submit onto the record.

This is a good idea, and is public relations worthy, but will still lead to fighting denials of applications in NJ Superior Court and eventually NJ Supreme Court.  So all these religious folks will be turned-down, and then have to go thru the same process Cheeseman-Jillard already did.  And they'll all be YEARS BEHIND CHEESEMAN! 

Cheeseman just filed with the SCOTUS.  Rogers is already there.  Rogers is "on-hold" pending the NYSR&PA case that SCOTUS already granted CERT to.  The Amicus Brief that we're a part of for the Rogers case (that our NJ state NRA is bringing forth) cost $10 GRAND, and CNJFO put-up $3,500 towards it after Cheeseman-Jillard directed us to do so out of the matching funds campaign we ran for them.

What NJ needs RIGHT NOW is for emotional gun owners to stop being ignorant of how the real world works and instead learn from the people leading the fight.  We've never been closer to real change in my lifetime.  

If we run another matching funds campaign, we'll need dues money & donations to match the public funds WITH.  Is everybody here a member of CNJFO or are we carrying all your water???

Rosey

 

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34 minutes ago, Frank Thomas said:

I can't believe all the gun rights cases bubbling up to the US Supreme Court.  With Justice Kavanaugh on board, I think the odds are at least 50/50 the 2nd Amendment will be upheld.  NJ's "jusifiable need" standard is absurd and clearly unconstitutional.

 

Welcome to the party 

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7 hours ago, Smokin .50 said:

So all these religious folks will be turned-down, and then have to go thru the same process

Taking a page from the dems playbook, you have to make the issue about an at-risk minority, not religion.  The left HATES religion.  When NJ turns down the applicants, what do you want on peoples minds....

A) The state of NJ turned down a bunch of religious zealots. There were muslims in that group too!!!  probably terrorists.

or

B) The state of NJ turned down Jews, you know, the folks that are repeatedly attacked at Synagogue and have a highly publicized justifiable need to defend themselves.

It's all about the optics. 

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1 hour ago, Scorpio64 said:

It's all about the optics. 

I agree. But, that's why it'd be best to get a half-dozen LGBTQ folks applying for permits... as they seem to hold the most favored status in the Progressive victimhood hierarchy. Not trying to be cynical or snarky... just sharing an observation! 

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" Rogers is "on-hold" pending the NYSR&PA case that SCOTUS already granted CERT to. "

Can you cite why it's on hold pending the NYC case? Haven't heard that anywhere and of course the justices never leak why they are holding something. Is that just conjecture?

Concerning carry at your place of worship, this came up at our church. Since a house of worship is not a business you may be hard pressed proving it falls within the exemption so part ownership may me tricky. A better idea is to rent a desk, room or office space in the building. It could be shared space (i.e. put your name or business name on a placard on a desk in the existing office space). You need keys and alarm code for the building. Register a company name with your town so you have a legal document stating your business name and address. I believe it was $40 in my town about 20 years ago. Open up a PayPal account with said name. In the rental/lease agreement have it specify that your business has use of the whole property and all buildings. Make sure your business has the stated purpose of consulting and research including said buildings and property. Stand up a website with the information that aligns with the stated purpose. Get 500 business cards from Vista Print for $9.99. Pay a monthly rent or lease, it can be in place of your normal giving. You now have a legitimate business on the property with the hours of operation as you determine. You should have some money flow in and out. You can legitimately do house of worship security evaluations and consulting. One customer can be your place of worship. Have them pay you something for your ongoing evaluation of said business. Don't list security as your business, then you fall into a category that needs all kinds of permissions from the state. Make it legit. The statue does not state how much you need to make, just that it is your business. If you  have partners, then they can all carry as well. If you ever get pinched you'll have all you need to support your legitimate business exemption. Transport unloaded from home to place of worship, load and carry while you are on the property. IMHO this is 100% legal in NJ per the statutes. Your millage may vary when and if you have a defensive situation or the "only ones" find out.

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2 hours ago, Scorpio64 said:

Taking a page from the dems playbook, you have to make the issue about an at-risk minority, not religion.  The left HATES religion.  When NJ turns down the applicants, what do you want on peoples minds....

A) The state of NJ turned down a bunch of religious zealots. There were muslims in that group too!!!  probably terrorists.

or

B) The state of NJ turned down Jews, you know, the folks that are repeatedly attacked at Synagogue and have a highly publicized justifiable need to defend themselves.

It's all about the optics. 

It's just not THAT simple (I wish it were, believe me)!

A)  Jews hate THE Jews that own guns.  So the "self-hating Jews" aka "the Lefties" will absolutely HATE on the right wing zealot gun owner-Jews lookin' to shoot-up the joint (see Remixer's post above).  And since no Goyem (non-Jew) wants to touch THAT THIRD RAIL on this subway, the PR angle will dwindle for a day & then get lost in MSM & relegated to conservative Jewish news sources (never to hit mainstream again) because gun-owning non-Jews won't be able to wrap their heads around the entire effed-up matter and the gun hater lefties (as organized as they appear to be) will let the whole matter die an ugly death!

B)  If our Asswipe Gov-'na cared about OPTICS Katie Brennan wouldn't have been "a THING".  She would have been put on a pedestal, appointed as a Czar of date rape in NJ, and been given a 6-figure salary instead of our Chief Executive treating her like trailer-trash or a disposable tampon.

C)  Even IF some of the optics play-out for a short while, Murphy will hide behind Goober the Ghost Gun Chaser (his AG) of keeping dangerous weapons off the streets cause ONLY CRIMINALS ARE ALLOWED TO HAVE GUNZ...

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10 hours ago, Smokin .50 said:

 Is everybody here a member of CNJFO or are we carrying all your water???

 

 

Do we get any credit for being members of any other 2A organization like  ANJRC, NRA, NJ2AS?  Do they all work together or is it a competition to see who can "carry all the water?"

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29 minutes ago, galapoola said:

" Rogers is "on-hold" pending the NYSR&PA case that SCOTUS already granted CERT to. "

Can you cite why it's on hold pending the NYC case? Haven't heard that anywhere and of course the justices never leak why they are holding something. Is that just conjecture?

Concerning carry at your place of worship, this came up at our church. Since a house of worship is not a business you may be hard pressed proving it falls within the exemption so part ownership may me tricky. A better idea is to rent a desk, room or office space in the building. It could be shared space (i.e. put your name or business name on a placard on a desk in the existing office space). You need keys and alarm code for the building. Register a company name with your town so you have a legal document stating your business name and address. I believe it was $40 in my town about 20 years ago. Open up a PayPal account with said name. In the rental/lease agreement have it specify that your business has use of the whole property and all buildings. Make sure your business has the stated purpose of consulting and research including said buildings and property. Stand up a website with the information that aligns with the stated purpose. Get 500 business cards from Vista Print for $9.99. Pay a monthly rent or lease, it can be in place of your normal giving. You now have a legitimate business on the property with the hours of operation as you determine. You should have some money flow in and out. You can legitimately do house of worship security evaluations and consulting. One customer can be your place of worship. Have them pay you something for your ongoing evaluation of said business. Make it legit. The statue does not state how much you need to make, just that it is your business. If you  have partners, then they can all carry as well. If you ever get pinched you'll have all you need to support your legitimate business exemption. Transport unloaded from home to place of worship, load and carry while you are on the property. IMHO this is 100% legal in NJ per the statutes. Your millage may vary when and if you have a defensive situation or the "only ones" find out.

Can I cite?  LOL, it's called analysis.  Gut instinct from someone with almost 48 years of gun ownership & firearms experience in NJ.

Your bidness solution would work under NJ law---at first glance, so I'd have to examine the finer points to give analysis.  It might not pass muster as far as use of "common areas", since even a condo owner can use the gym at his condo, BUT HE CAN'T CARRY THERE---so I need to analyze THAT too and speak with an attorney to see if he can carve-out a difference in the usage of common areas.  Like the Chapel, for instance.

If this bidness offers its' services as a non-profit, this "Security Bidness" of yours needn't "make money" to be an actual bidness.  And IF known firearms attorneys can't find a hole in your thinking, why stop at one desk in one house of worship???  Rent a desk in every house of worship, and accept donations from your security personnel to stay afloat.  Your idea has merit, but is easily expanded upon to meet the needs of everyone that worships THEIR God.

~R

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1 minute ago, Regular Guy said:

Do we get any credit for being members of any other 2A organization like  ANJRC, NRA, NJ2AS?  Do they all work together or is it a competition to see who can "carry all the water?"

Some DO work together; I know that CNJFO has worked very cooperatively with several other groups. I think you may have misunderstood his encouragement to get more people to join as a "slight" to other 2A groups. I feel certain he didn't mean it that way!

Personally? Looking at the big picture, I think the dues for all of these groups is cheap enough that EVERYONE who is pro-2A should belong to a few!! I happen to belong to the NRA, ANJRPC, CNJFO, and TWAW. Pick the ones YOU like - and join them. 

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