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Maksim

My response to an internship request.

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Axeman I think were more on the same page then u think. I wasn't suggesting that they be carried in any way, but just like maks did its supposed to be an learning experience. you guys open your doors to these kids and they should be grateful to that not feel entitled, and should act in such a mannar. However, you should look at these kids as if they never had a real job. Let's face it most summer jobs don't care what you bring to the table other them u show up and do ur work. So there experience is limited. What I mean by PAve the way is give them insight to what business look for in employees and it is there decosion to mold thermselves based on those qualities. I would bet that half the applicants you discard are actually good workers that offer a lot but have no idea how to present themselves.

 

Spelling. Epic Fail. :facepalm:

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Honestly Jack, I am 28... so I am in the same generation. I had a job since I was 16.

 

Quite honestly, I think all of these recent graduates are smoking crack if they think that their education entitles them to something. Some of the most successful business owners and professionals I know of, have little or no formal education. What they have is real world experience, leadership qualities, and a drive. I would rather have someone with no fancy degree but have the drive, discipline and ability to motivate themselves and others.

 

Last I checked the American Dream was creating wealth and empowering others through entrepreneur-ism and enterprise, not to go to Harvard and then fetch coffee for someone for 5 years.

 

Unless you are going into a field where you need 10 years of schooling, such as medicine, a 4 year degree is just a piece of paper, grades 13, 14, 15, and 16. Masters in Business? Yep, Masters in BS. You are still going to have to learn 90% of what you need to do on the job. Add in the fact that people will switch careers at least 7 times over their lifetime?

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Honestly Jack, I am 28... so I am in the same generation. I had a job since I was 16.

This. I may not be 28, but I have been working since I was 15. Always showed up to work when I was scheduled, never called out because it was a nice day or just didn't feel like working. I worked at one job for just over 3 years, only called out 4 times total. It's kind of ridiculous what some people expect that they deserve these days.....

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Spelling. Epic Fail. :facepalm:

Sorry, i wrote it from my BB earlier today, and just to be fair this is a casual environment, i come on here to get away from all the BS, not endure more.

 

I have had a job since i was 16 and go to school all week so i don't need people crawling up my A$$, i get it all week long.

 

I have never felt entitled to anything, and understand that hard work is what gets you there, not some piece of paper. I understand that you don't need an education to succeed in life, but i don't see people hiring your avg high school graduate to work at a finance firm, or an engineering firm.

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Sorry, i wrote it from my BB earlier today, and just to be fair this is a casual environment, i come on here to get away from all the BS, not endure more.

 

I have had a job since i was 16 and go to school all week so i don't need people crawling up my A$$, i get it all week long.

 

I have never felt entitled to anything, and understand that hard work is what gets you there, not some piece of paper. I understand that you don't need an education to succeed in life, but i don't see people hiring your avg high school graduate to work at a finance firm, or an engineering firm.

 

 

Agreed. I am 23 and have been working since I was 15. I have no sense of entitlement. I'm a little tired of seeing the older gents say all of the current generation expect everything to be handed to them. I do not expect **** to be handed to me.

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For the younger generation, the way society portrays how to be successful and how to get there is quite confusing. Of course I speak from the perspective of this younger generation.

 

Society refers to the fact that we must be humble and it will take years if not a life time to achieve success-- and yet also demands that we take the initiative. While I do agree 100% that people should not expect to achieve the type of success they wish for immediately and that it will take time regardless, at what point do we turn our own initiative into more then being someone's lapdog?

I think some of the confusion that is created is also from the perspective that our own confidence is misinterpreted. This is not an excuse by any means, as 'perception is reality,' and if we're acting like a smartass, we probably are being one. However, I feel that sometimes youthful confidence is seen as something else (a negative) because of the perceptions created because a person is seen as a youth and not given quite the same respect (ageism works both ways).

 

With that said, I absolutely agree that school is a crock of sh-t, and ultimately what is gained is the perception of knowing something (as noted, a diploma is otherwise a piece of paper). There are cases in which post-graduate degrees mean quite a bit more (like the field I'm in), but I can attest to the fact that world experience goes quite a way all things considered (both personally and professionally).

 

My point being, I guess, is that the cracks on this younger generation are no different then what the previous generations have said about the youth in their days. There are different ways of looking at the world, and this has, in some ways, caused different issues-- but that's a given with the progression of human society. To simply think that the world would function as it did 20-30 years ago is... a bit ridiculous, just as it was 20-30 years ago when the older folk looked upon their youth.

 

As for me? I'm glad I have chosen a path that examines this madness compared to being it :sarcastichand:

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Sorry, i wrote it from my BB earlier today, and just to be fair this is a casual environment, i come on here to get away from all the BS, not endure more.

 

I have had a job since i was 16 and go to school all week so i don't need people crawling up my A$$, i get it all week long.

 

That's fine, and I wasn't really crawling up your azz. All you had to say was BB... I am a grammar nazi and I have problems with my fat fingers and that god forsaken keyboard on the BB.

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Agreed. I am 23 and have been working since I was 15. I have no sense of entitlement. I'm a little tired of seeing the older gents say all of the current generation expect everything to be handed to them. I do not expect **** to be handed to me.

 

Great - all two of you. ;)

 

In my experience, it seems to occur most often with recent college grads. Generally those that have been in the workforce for at least two years KNOW they don't know JACK.

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I am surprised you wrote back to him like that. I know that in your business it all comes from referrals so that was a brave move. Did you ever think about the fact that his family or other relatives might be a current client? What if they tell other people you were a jerk to a kid just trying to get some experience over the summer. In regards to his writing skills. I will say that have correspondence with fortune 500 CEO's and they do not write much better.

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I am surprised you wrote back to him like that. I know that in your business it all comes from referrals so that was a brave move. Did you ever think about the fact that his family or other relatives might be a current client? What if they tell other people you were a jerk to a kid just trying to get some experience over the summer. In regards to his writing skills. I will say that have correspondence with fortune 500 CEO's and they do not write much better.

 

I hope his parents appreciated that response. Quite honestly this is why I am in business for myself. I do not take every client just because they want to be. He is applying for an internship and his email is all I need to know about him personally.

 

1. He rushes things and has no attention to detail. If he did, he would spell check.

2. He has a me mentality. All about his interests.

3. He cannot sell himself.

4. Wants the easy task.

 

So why should I waste my time and resources training someone who obviously does not appreciate it.

 

Lastly, not every young person is bad, but the majority I have met via resumes. J, I would hire you without a doubt because I know your work ethic. You are the exception not the rule.

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Not to sound rude, but you said that you would rather people with experience than young college grads who feel self entitled. How do they get experience if they are shot down and how do you know they are self entitled? Maybe you are misinterpreting their lack of experience for self entitlement! Not only do they not have job experience, they likely don't have experience writing resumes, or know what companies are looking for. I wouldn't be so quick to pass them off.

 

With that said, I think you, Maks, are a bit understanding of this, or you wouldn't have even bothered to respond. So good on you. djg0770 on the other hand, I think has already a perception of this generation fixed in his mind that he can't look past it.

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Not to sound rude, but you said that you would rather people with experience than young college grads who feel self entitled. How do they get experience if they are shot down and how do you know they are self entitled? Maybe you are misinterpreting their lack of experience for self entitlement! Not only do they not have job experience, they likely don't have experience writing resumes, or know what companies are looking for. I wouldn't be so quick to pass them off.

 

With that said, I think you, Maks, are a bit understanding of this, or you wouldn't have even bothered to respond. So good on you. djg0770 on the other hand, I think has already a perception of this generation fixed in his mind that he can't look past it.

 

I don't care about the formatting on the resumes. I care if someone does not bother to spell check when they are applying for a job. Resume writing skills? Please. You have seen one, you have seen them all. Same bs lines.

 

Talk about your life experience. I care about your summer jobs at 16. I care about you busting your ass in the summer.

 

Will reply more in depth when I get home.

 

But point blank to the people who feel I was harsh, there is no chance in Hell I would give him an opportunity. It was just that bad that I needed to respond.

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I wasn't talking about the format of a resume, nor was I saying you were too harsh. If you fail simple things like spell checking, as you said, they probably aren't the type of person you are looking for. What I am saying is not everyone knows what goes into a job resume, or what you, or whoever is involved in the hiring process, is looking for.

 

Maybe I was wrong about you. Perception is reality and people need to learn and adapt to that perception, and NOT their own perception about themselves.

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This reminds me of a guy I interviewed for a position back around 2000. The guy had a pretty impressive resume. However his actual interview was pretty abysmal. At best he had some rudimentary knowledge about some of the things he claimed on the resume. By that point I am somewhat annoyed, but not overly so. Keep in mind that this is pretty much the peak of the internet boom and anyone who can even spell "computer" with no more than one mistake stands a pretty good chance to land a high paying job. So it is not unusual to run into candidates like this. And as usual, to be polite and not end the interview with something like - "You suck and just wasted 30 minutes of my life that I will never get back" - I run through some standard questions - "Why are you looking to move from your current position?" The guy goes "I feel that I deserve higher compensation due to my level of experience and knowledge." Mind you this guy has just failed to answer just about every single question I asked him....even with some follow-up hints towards the correct answers. So I am a bit more annoyed now. But I run through the rest of the BS questions and end with - "Do you have any questions for me?" The guy goes - "What hours do you guys work? Because in my current position I sometimes have to come in early or stay late and I am really looking for something with more standard hours." Oh by the way the guy is applying for a job at a startup. At this point my work day is something like - come in at 9am; Work till 9-10pm. Go home, eat dinner. Get on a computer by about 12:00 and work till 2:00-3:00am. Rinse, repeat every day. Granted I was a nut job. But nobody worked less than 10 hour days. So I look at the guy and my usual politeness just melts away and I tell him something along these lines - "I have interviewed a lot of people and by far you are the most deluded about your skills or about what it takes to succeed in this business. You know less than a college grad with a CS degree. You should kiss your current employer's feet for actually paying you as I can not imagine anyone doing so. Stop whining, stay at your current job and try to learn something that will make you employable. Now let me show you out." The guy's jaw dropped. He was literally stunned as I walked him out of there.

Was this professional behavior on my part? Absolutely not. I have interviewed literally hundreds of people in my career and I have never run into any other candidate to have such an effect on me.

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I wasn't talking about the format of a resume, nor was I saying you were too harsh. If you fail simple things like spell checking, as you said, they probably aren't the type of person you are looking for. What I am saying is not everyone knows what goes into a job resume, or what you, or whoever is involved in the hiring process, is looking for.

 

Maybe I was wrong about you. Perception is reality and people need to learn and adapt to that perception, and NOT their own perception about themselves.

 

Absolutely. But once again, if I have a choice between two candidates.

 

1. Princeton 3.5 GPA, BA in Economics, no jobs ever.

2. Rutgers 3.5 GPA, BA in Economics but has had jobs part time while studying, paid his way through college, and is loan free.

 

Who do you think I would pick? It is a no brainer for me, the Rutgers student.

 

It is not about the resume. If the person had a mediocre resume, but followed it up with a phone call, I would absolutely bring them to the interview, and they would be ahead in my book. How many people have done that in the 2 years or so I was interviewing for myself? Not one time.

 

Here is my hiring process. I put out an add on monster/craigs list. Then I respond back with a few questions via email, and then I ask them to complete an online questionnaire/assessment.

 

Only 5 people out of the 20 that emailed me their resumes actually went ahead and did that.

 

If anyone submitted a resume that had no major spelling mistakes, did not start with asking what the compensation or the time off policy is, and as long as I can pronounce their name, they would be called in for an interview.

 

If anyone sent them a hand written thank you card, and as long as they passed the facebook/google test, they would be hired on the spot. No one has.

 

Before doing the hiring for my company, I was doing the interviews for the companies I worked for, Staples, Hewlett Packard, and Ameriprise. I have looked at about 1,000 resumes over the years and they pretty much read all the same. A resume does not tell us jack about anyone really. Almost everyone lies or exaggerates about their experiences. Does anyone honestly think we do not google every candidate we are interested in bringing in for an interview? What does tell us everything is about the person's behavior. Do they change jobs every 2 years? Are there prolonged breaks in employment? Are there any companies or schools this candidate attended or worked at that I know people there that I can verify the information? If you worked for a company where I know others, bet your butt I will verify and dig around before asking you about it.

 

True story, had a gentleman in his mid 40's apply. He was already experienced in the field but switched companies every year. I see two companies that he listed on his resume that I know people at. One of them was a business partner I work with. Call one where he stated he worked at.... nope, he never did. Call a business partner, yes, he worked with him, yet never did any business. Lied and grossly exaggerated his experience and production.

 

True story number 2. A young 25 year old man who was also experienced licensed. I ask him on the questionnaire about any criminal acts or anything that would come up on his record. Tells me no, on three separate occasions. I do my background check and a google... not only did he have multiple written client complaints, but was also 2 years prior convicted of dealing drugs at Penn State. Had he been up front about it and explained it, I would be ok with it. Its not the crime, its the concealment of it and how he handled it.

 

So with all the college grads, your HR person or your boss is not an idiot. Be professional, be truthful, and be interested in the people offering you an opportunity. By doing those three things, you are already ahead of 90% of other applicants.

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Maks....I don't think anything you are saying or expecting is unreasonable at all. Reading that last post, I find it crazy that people will exaggerate or lie to that extent. I don't even exaggerate on my resume....simply for that reason. I would rather not be hired because I am not fit for the job than to cheat my way into it.

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Maks....I don't think anything you are saying or expecting is unreasonable at all. Reading that last post, I find it crazy that people will exaggerate or lie to that extent. I don't even exaggerate on my resume....simply for that reason. I would rather not be hired because I am not fit for the job than to cheat my way into it.

 

I agree. I do not put anything on my resume I can not back up. And I expect the same from any candidate I interview.

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Maks....I don't think anything you are saying or expecting is unreasonable at all. Reading that last post, I find it crazy that people will exaggerate or lie to that extent. I don't even exaggerate on my resume....simply for that reason. I would rather not be hired because I am not fit for the job than to cheat my way into it.

 

 

Victor, you are a terrific applicant. And knowing about your background, I would put you in line ahead of any Princeton grad. Believe it or not, just being a good human being puts you ahead of the majority.

 

Ie... the applicant I had for my admin position that was also a "sexy house cleaner". Yes, she listed her mobile number... the same one she used to post an advertisement for an exotic, topless house cleaner.

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Absolutely. But once again, if I have a choice between two candidates.

 

1. Princeton 3.5 GPA, BA in Economics, no jobs ever.

2. Rutgers 3.5 GPA, BA in Economics but has had jobs part time while studying, paid his way through college, and is loan free.

 

Who do you think I would pick? It is a no brainer for me, the Rutgers student.

 

It is not about the resume. If the person had a mediocre resume, but followed it up with a phone call, I would absolutely bring them to the interview, and they would be ahead in my book. How many people have done that in the 2 years or so I was interviewing for myself? Not one time.

 

Here is my hiring process. I put out an add on monster/craigs list. Then I respond back with a few questions via email, and then I ask them to complete an online questionnaire/assessment.

 

Only 5 people out of the 20 that emailed me their resumes actually went ahead and did that.

 

If anyone submitted a resume that had no major spelling mistakes, did not start with asking what the compensation or the time off policy is, and as long as I can pronounce their name, they would be called in for an interview.

 

If anyone sent them a hand written thank you card, and as long as they passed the facebook/google test, they would be hired on the spot. No one has.

 

Before doing the hiring for my company, I was doing the interviews for the companies I worked for, Staples, Hewlett Packard, and Ameriprise. I have looked at about 1,000 resumes over the years and they pretty much read all the same. A resume does not tell us jack about anyone really. Almost everyone lies or exaggerates about their experiences. Does anyone honestly think we do not google every candidate we are interested in bringing in for an interview? What does tell us everything is about the person's behavior. Do they change jobs every 2 years? Are there prolonged breaks in employment? Are there any companies or schools this candidate attended or worked at that I know people there that I can verify the information? If you worked for a company where I know others, bet your butt I will verify and dig around before asking you about it.

 

True story, had a gentleman in his mid 40's apply. He was already experienced in the field but switched companies every year. I see two companies that he listed on his resume that I know people at. One of them was a business partner I work with. Call one where he stated he worked at.... nope, he never did. Call a business partner, yes, he worked with him, yet never did any business. Lied and grossly exaggerated his experience and production.

 

True story number 2. A young 25 year old man who was also experienced licensed. I ask him on the questionnaire about any criminal acts or anything that would come up on his record. Tells me no, on three separate occasions. I do my background check and a google... not only did he have multiple written client complaints, but was also 2 years prior convicted of dealing drugs at Penn State. Had he been up front about it and explained it, I would be ok with it. Its not the crime, its the concealment of it and how he handled it.

 

So with all the college grads, your HR person or your boss is not an idiot. Be professional, be truthful, and be interested in the people offering you an opportunity. By doing those three things, you are already ahead of 90% of other applicants.

 

 

This is the thing... 95% of people are not skilled at interviewing, writing effective resumes and basic follow up. My first job out of college was doing sales in the IT staffing industry. I sold our services to Fortune 500 companies, in short we found them people they needed. I sold that service, I was not a recruiter but I had to screen resumes and people before sending them out on interviews. I think most will find the story I am going to tell funny to an extent. I have many like this but this is my favorite.

 

Working with a VERY large law firm, they are looking for a person to be a "liaison" to the senior partners in regards to technology. (dumb it down for the old rich guys) Pay was 200K a year, insane benefits etc.... The guy aced the first 2 interviews and was going in for the last one. I speak to him and I am very specific. "John, you have to bring you A game it's your to lose at this point wear a suit tie, shine your shoes etc..." Basic common sense stuff.... Well, after the interview i get a call from one of the senior partners. " Sorry we dont want him.... I ask why....

 

 

 

 

 

 

He wore a polo shirt to the interview. I was speechless but what can i do. The damage was done. I called him and told him the exact words " John you just fucked up the easiest job you would have ever had.... He was dumbfounded..

 

 

No problem though my company lost 40K on the deal and I lost 15K..... That pushed me out of staffing because you were never in control of the sale.

 

 

The point of this ramble is people just dont have that skill set usually.

 

I can write a resume that will get recruiters ringing your phone off the hook. I can give you the skills to ace any interview. But I am in the minority and I was taught these things by the industry I was in.

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Victor, you are a terrific applicant. And knowing about your background, I would put you in line ahead of any Princeton grad. Believe it or not, just being a good human being puts you ahead of the majority.

 

Ie... the applicant I had for my admin position that was also a "sexy house cleaner". Yes, she listed her mobile number... the same one she used to post an advertisement for an exotic, topless house cleaner.

 

 

Now that is funny!!

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Victor, you are a terrific applicant. And knowing about your background, I would put you in line ahead of any Princeton grad. Believe it or not, just being a good human being puts you ahead of the majority.

 

Ie... the applicant I had for my admin position that was also a "sexy house cleaner". Yes, she listed her mobile number... the same one she used to post an advertisement for an exotic, topless house cleaner.

Thanks Maks. As for the house cleaner.....speechless. I guess she was hoping that she could use that to her advantage? You know.....she can probably get a free milk shake with those moves, so why not try to get a job with it :icon_rolleyes:

 

Basic common sense stuff....

Key set of words in this whole entire post. There are techniques that can give you an advantage, but A LOT of the necessary tools are things that 95% of people should be able to figure out. I was 19 when I showed up to a job interview in a full suit, and a 40-50 year old man was in a polo and cargo shorts. I would never want to show up to an interview dressed worse than the person interviewing me. "Professional" should be the word that sticks in your mind. Like Maks says.....never ask what your salary/wage will be or how much vacation you will get. Even if that's what you are interested in, it's just NOT a smart move at all. It shows motive too. I would rather work an enjoyable job for less pay than make better money at a job I hate. I have experienced having a job that I absolutely hate, and it's almost not even worth the paycheck.

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Great - all two of you. ;)

 

In my experience, it seems to occur most often with recent college grads. Generally those that have been in the workforce for at least two years KNOW they don't know JACK.

 

I'm not going to disagree with the notion of people having a sense of entitlement coming out of college. However, i feel like i need to make a point that not all current grads are of the qualities you outline. Would i say there are few exceptions? no. Most people i go to school with are very worried they will even be able to get jobs when they finish, and look for opportunities in the field to gain experience. Personally, when my internship is done in May i start research in a green house with one of my professors until i start my fall internship in sept. However, like you guys have outlined, there is a serious epidemic plaguing the country... it's called worthless degrees which basically do everything short of promising them job opportunities when they're finished. Hell the last generation raised us right? got no one to blame but yourselves. :sarcastichand: I think the system took a big dump when on-line degrees became popular. I think we need to change the stereotypical generalizations about the up and comming generation, you guys had hippies, why cant we have dumb college graduates? i think that's a step in the right direction.

I was looking into internships for the NJ dept of fish and wildlife, the only thing i could find were positions for cleaning the parks restrooms. My only problem with this is other then saying i had an internship with them, what else could i say... i cleaned bathrooms.. I understand the notion of getting my foot in the door and making connections, but i have to pick and choose what will benefit my time best. They explicitly state on there site that most of there employees started as interns and season help. I would love to work for the dept one day, but right now i need opportunities with more meat, and i need to spend my time gaining the best experiences available to me.

 

 

oh yeah and here is a brain twister, I'm the one paying for my internships right now and in the fall. I would kill for a non-paying internship, but i don't have a choice due to the circumstances.

 

Oh yeah, and be prepared for this to only get worse... with the no child left behind program students in high school and down are not taught to be exceptional, schools cater learning assessments to the lower learners. The country is more concerned with making every one avg then giving gifted and talented students the opportunities to progress further.

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Ie... the applicant I had for my admin position that was also a "sexy house cleaner". Yes, she listed her mobile number... the same one she used to post an advertisement for an exotic, topless house cleaner.

 

So, she make your coffee the way you like it????

 

It all come down to this : Rodney Live

 

Harry

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oh yeah and here is a brain twister, I'm the one paying for my internships right now and in the fall. I would kill for a non-paying internship, but i don't have a choice due to the circumstances.

 

 

Glad to see your doing what you have to to get to where you want in the future, this alone would play highly if I was aware of it during an interview.

 

Unfortunately many of the people coming into the workforce as had been stated earlier think that are owed things, I don't think as far as jobs go, we are owed anything when looking for a job.

 

Hopefully you will get a free or paid internship in the future or right into the job your are training for.

 

Talk about other who have close to a known period of time that they will have to scrimp and be very frugal, I have these kids, not that I am old, but these guy and gals just look a lot younger than they are, but I have new commuter pilots come through my tower all the time, and I find out that a lot of them for there first 4 year or there abouts will be making less per year than if they got a job flipping burgers while they build up their hours.

 

Harry

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djg0770 on the other hand, I think has already a perception of this generation fixed in his mind that he can't look past it.

 

You've never met me and yet you have jumped to a conclusion - you've just convicted yourself of the same charge you are attempting to convict me of.

 

I hired a guy in 2009 - he was all smoke and mirrors and falsified his resume - it took us WEEKS to fire him. The only positive of having this guy work for us is that we changed hiring policies because of this guy. Now EVERYONE has their education checked and we run eVerify, even if your name is George Bush.

 

I work with old people and young people. The consensus in the office (without my input) is that they should not hire anyone under the age of 40. It's OK bones - they're all fat old women, they don't matter...

 

For the record, my nickname is HATER for a reason.

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You've never met me and yet you have jumped to a conclusion - you've just convicted yourself of the same charge you are attempting to convict me of.

 

I'm glad you brought this up and recognized it. Believe it or not, that was my point. I based my opinion on you from 2 little paragraphs. Whether my opinion was right or not is moot, perception is reality, but that reality isn't often the truth.

 

For the record, my nickname is HATER for a reason.

 

Don't doubt it.

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Well, now that I know the perspective of an employer, I'll start rewriting my resume and cover letters. Not that I misspell words, but looking over some of my previous letters and such, I tend to put too much emphasis on myself and not enough on what the employer needs. The funny thing is, I had to pay for a career strategies course as part of my degree program. That course only taught us the same generic stuff on every free website (careerbuilder, monser, etc.). But I had to pay for it.

 

Would anyone here be interested in reviewing my resume or cover letter before I start sending it to more employers?

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I'd be happy to review your resume and cover letter if you're in the pharma industry.

 

General advice is to make sure you use the proper buzz-words. People look for those buzz-words. People scan resumes quick and if they don't see what they want to see right away, they don't keep your resume. Half the time the employer doesn't even know what they need. Some companies like to hire good people with the belief that good people are trainable. Some companies want to hire this perfect person they are sure exists that has all the experience they are looking for, along with the personality, work ethic and low salary requirements they want to pay.

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