Can gun games get you killed?

[Shane45 807]

The point was a different kind of stress. That was from the mouths of the competitors themselves. It seems relevant.

 

 

At any rate, I dont feel like getting divorced so I need to go pay some attention to the wife on moms day!!!! L8R

[Ryan626 5]

All I know is if I hear gunshots near me, I'm either on the floor or behind cover, then asses what's going on. I believe this is the first reaction by most whether your leo, etc.... Just my 2 cents.

[Joelk 61]

At that distance yoiu are better off stabbing somebody or punching him, that's a lot quicker

I will bring a few training knives so we can check that concept as well but I will agree that a knife, mounted close to the centerline, so as to be accessible with either hand, can be a VERY valuable tool.

 

I give you permission to punch me all you want, maybee it will stop me, maybee it won't, but that criminal (6'2", 240lbs, who has been working out for the last 5 years in prison) will most likely be unimpressed.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

Yup, I have zero training other than bootcamp but I can guarantee you that I can hold my own with the best of'em. And since when did this become a pissing contest?

Remember, it's not a GM or master super duper shooter that wins the fight, it's the one who wants it more.

[SSlav 14]

Slav I disagree with your assertion but more importantly do you think that a competitor at that level is really stressed anymore by competition? I dont.

 

Which assertion? That IDPA Master is equivalent to USPSA A/B Class?

 

Are you kidding? Of course they are stressed. I shoot matches for fun. How I place is at most a matter of pride. For the top dogs winning and losing is a question of prize money, sponsorship, training contracts - basically making a living. You do not think they are stressed?

[KpdPipes 388]

Ray Ray, you sure your not confusing USPSA with IDPA. IDPA is pretty much a stock gun competition. Its 90% bone stock sigs and glocks. And in fact some IDPA matches have a BUG side match. (BUG=Back up gun) And it has to be an actual subcompact or revolver. And in IDPA its always in cover and tactical (except for a qualifier match where you dont have to wear a cover garment which I actually never understood)

 

I shoot USPSA with the same 1911 I carry most of the time.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

Which assertion? That IDPA Master is equivalent to USPSA A/B Class?

 

Are you kidding? Of course they are stressed. I shoot matches for fun. How I place is at most a matter of pride. For the top dogs winning and losing is a question of prize money, sponsorship, training contracts - basically making a living. You do not think they are stressed?

 

stressed? yeah, but they still go home when their done.

stress to me is when the Hi-Point 40 S&W is already pointing at you. And you just pumped a round into your shotgun and it's pointing at him.

[SSlav 14]

HOWEVER it seems that Top Shot Stress sends a GM shooter home with all misses!!!!!!

 

What an idiotic statement. Chris Tilley - the only GM in second season - got nominated into elimination for throwing tomahawks and got eliminated shooting a blowgun.

[Vlad G 345]

For the record this is about gun games, not knifes. I'll take experience with anything, but I'm not sure this is the point of this exercise. The question here is IF my bad USPSA habits will get me killed. Presumably this is about bad habits with a firearm, not about my skill in deploying a pocket knife. While that sure is an interesting training topic, lets keep this to a test of firearm use, including cover, etc, or whatever is supposed to get me killed.

 

Shane and Tosser (or maybe just Shane) mentioned that they made up their own rules for firearm practice which are more realistic then the games are play. I'm interested how I perform at those tests, not in how fast I can punch or stab someone. The topic here is about bad habits from gun games, not about my 3 herniated disks, I'm not really sure what that would prove in context of this conversation.

[The Dark Knight 11]

Most self defense situations are extremely short lived, a couple seconds long. Many times a single shot is not even fired. You will not de doing tactical reloads and dumping three magazines in the "badguy" stop watching so many 80's action movies.

[HuntingPaper 62]

I will bring a few training knives so we can check that concept as well but I will agree that a knife, mounted close to the centerline, so as to be accessible with either hand, can be a VERY valuable tool.

 

I give you permission to punch me all you want, maybee it will stop me, maybee it won't, but that criminal (6'2", 240lbs, who has been working out for the last 5 years in prison) will most likely be unimpressed.

So now we going for a tactical boxing match ?

We can do that after we shoot each other with the paint balls

[Krdshrk 3,877]

Stress when competing is one thing... but stress when your life and the lives of others is on the line is a complete other thing.

[bbk 188]

Leave the bickering for PM. Only warning.

[Joelk 61]

For the record this is about gun games, not knifes. I'll take experience with anything, but I'm not sure this is the point of this exercise. The question here is IF my bad USPSA habits will get me killed. Presumably this is about bad habits with a firearm, not about my skill in deploying a pocket knife. While that sure is an interesting training topic, lets keep this to a test of firearm use, including cover, etc, or whatever is supposed to get me killed.

 

 

So now we going for a tactical boxing match ?

We can do that after we shoot each other with the paint balls

 

I am sorry, but I thought the topic of "Can gun games get you killed" implied real life scenarios. In real life criminals tend to attack in groups, up close, and may use knives, fists, guns, etc. Gun games are played at distance, against static paper, steel, or maybe steel that moves in a predetermined pattern. Real life crime tends to be up close, personal, violent, and fast. Do you guys want to do some kind of FOF version of a gun game, or are we going to do our best to recreate real situations in FOF? You may have a great drawstroke when standing facing a target, but can you draw with an opponent grappling with you, or even worse stabbing you? You had better have skills to deal with that knife first, or you may die while trying to draw your pistol.

[HuntingPaper 62]

I am sorry, but I thought the topic of "Can gun games get you killed" implied real life scenarios. In real life criminals tend to attack in groups, up close, and may use knives, fists, guns, etc. Gun games are played at distance, against static paper, steel, or maybe steel that moves in a predetermined pattern. Real life crime tends to be up close, personal, violent, and fast. Do you guys want to do some kind of FOF version of a gun game, or are we going to do our best to recreate real situations in FOF? You may have a great drawstroke when standing facing a target, but can you draw with an opponent grappling with you, or even worse stabbing you? You had better have skills to deal with that knife first, or you may die while trying to draw your pistol.

I though this started as shooting skills... But whatever you want big guy.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

So, what are we doing about this training or force on force stuff or whatever you guys call it?

[Joelk 61]

I though this started as shooting skills... But whatever you want big guy.

You know I will do whatever everyone else wants, but I will try to open some people's eyes up to other points of view.

 

I know I had a rude awakening the first time I took a good FOF class, and realized that it didn't matter how good I was with a gun (not that I am very good) if I couldn't draw in it a FUT (fucked up tangle, courtesy of SouthNarc).

 

I can really bore you all and say that our verbal skills managing unknown contacts are more important than our combative skills and in jersey our knife skills are more important than our gun skills as most of us can't carry anyway :thsmiley_deadhorse:

[Vlad G 345]

I am sorry, but I thought the topic of "Can gun games get you killed" implied real life scenarios. In real life criminals tend to attack in groups, up close, and may use knives, fists, guns, etc. Gun games are played at distance, against static paper, steel, or maybe steel that moves in a predetermined pattern. Real life crime tends to be up close, personal, violent, and fast. Do you guys want to do some kind of FOF version of a gun game, or are we going to do our best to recreate real situations in FOF? You may have a great drawstroke when standing facing a target, but can you draw with an opponent grappling with you, or even worse stabbing you? You had better have skills to deal with that knife first, or you may die while trying to draw your pistol.

 

Those are GREAT questions Joel, but the hell do they have to do with my bad habits? I may LACK certain skills related to self defense, and I never claimed I had them. The question is are bad habits specifically inherited from competition shooting a DETRIMENT? I'm not arguing that competition shooting is not training, never have. The question we are trying to resolve here is one of my bad ingrained habits getting me killed. Odds are you take someone not trained in fighting against knifes they will lose regardless of a competition background or not. What does your test prove exactly in the context of this question?

[Ray Ray 3,566]

You keep mentioning bad habits, name a few.

[Shane45 807]

Slav, the only idiocy seems to be when you join the conversation. At least I get an honest sense from Vlad that he is giving consideration to the discussions presented. So what Rank is Athena Lee who was 2002 and 2007 USPSA National Open Women's Champion? And REMEMBER SLAV the comments about the stress of the show vs competition stress was from the competitors themselves, not something I pulled out of thin air! Im talking , as were thay, about their shooting performance on the show.

[Joelk 61]

Those are GREAT questions Joel, but the hell do they have to do with my bad habits? I may LACK certain skills related to self defense, and I never claimed I had them. The question is are bad habits specifically inherited from competition shooting a DETRIMENT? I'm not arguing that competition shooting is not training, never have. The question we are trying to resolve here is one of my bad ingrained habits getting me killed. Odds are you take someone not trained in fighting against knifes they will lose regardless of a competition background or not. What does your test prove exactly in the context of this question?

Vlad, I don't have any particular test, and I don't have anything to prove, I just hope to get some people to think about the realistic application of firearms in a self defense scenario. If you think about it, and then disagree with me, I am still happy as I, hopefully, got you to think about things from another perspective.

 

Concerning the topic of "Can gun games get you killed" I think that I have pointed out that gun games teach skills, and instill confidence, that are completely unrelated to realistic self defense scenarios. The competitive practices that I see as the most potentially dangerous are the poor use of cover and concealment, shooting a prescribed number of rounds as opposed to as much as is required to put the bad guy down, and general combative mindset issues. In reality you keep fighting no mater what, while competition teaches you to quit if you time out, do too badly, or flub a stage. Second Edit/Addition: Please go back and check out my post (#24 in the thread) about knocing down reactive targets.

 

Edited to add: Competition also teaches you to play by the rules (you may stretch them, but you try to stay within them) while in reality you do whatever you need to do to win the fight.

[Vlad G 345]

You keep mentioning bad habits, name a few.

 

That wasn't me. Shane and Tosser said that I must have them because I'm a competition shooter. I want to test that theory. Those are the bad habits I refer to.

[Vlad G 345]

Vlad, I don't have any particular test, and I don't have anything to prove, I just hope to get some people to think about the realistic application of firearms in a self defense scenario. If you think about it, and then disagree with me, I am still happy as I, hopefully, got you to think about things from another perspective.

 

Concerning the topic of "Can gun games get you killed" I think that I have pointed out that gun games teach skills, and instill confidence, that are completely unrelated to realistic self defense scenarios. The competitive practices that I see as the most potentially dangerous are the poor use of cover and concealment, shooting a prescribed number of rounds as opposed to as much as is required to put the bad guy down, and general combative mindset issues. In reality you keep fighting no mater what, while competition teaches you to quit if you time out, do too badly, or flub a stage.

 

Edited to add: Competition also teaches you to play by the rules (you may stretch them, but you try to stay within them) while in reality you do whatever you need to do to win the fight.

 

Joel, I don't strongly disagree with any particular point in great detail, but some in small detail. That however I think is besides the point, my position is testing 3ft defense against knives is besides the point in testing those issues. Yes I shouldn't quit until the attacker is dead, but as I refuse to actually shoot you with real bullets if you try to stab me in a mock fight, that isn't a particularly good way to test if I quit early or not.

 

The assumption made here is that I can't break those habits, and I can't adapt. I won't for a second disagree with you that USPSA doesn't give a crap about concealment and I never said that is a good idea in a fight. But what Shane and Tosser, and I guess you, are saying is that because I don't use concealment or cover in a game I won't do it real life, or in a scenario approximating real life. You are saying that I will only shoot twice, so mix up your targets with the kind that fall after a number of rounds I'm not aware of. You assume I quit because I flub a stage, and boy is that not me, so lets try it out.

 

You are saying that skills taught by gun games are completely unrelated to real life. Are you saying that shooting fast and accurate is not related to real life?

 

Come up with a shooting test of your choosing (not a wrestling one, as that has nothing to do with my supposed bad habits) that test that theory. Shane said he shoots informal matches designed to stress those points. I'm interested in shooting those, with real guns or guns that recoil like real guns, not airsoft pistols, or wrestling matches, they don't answer the question posed.

[Shane45 807]

Vlad, for someone that raises the "assumption" flag as often as you do... you seem to do it a lot. Please show me in a pm from me or post where I said YOU HAVE BAD HABITS DUE TO GUN GAMES. I never speak in absolutes especially about subjective topics. And I have only seen the vids you pm'ed me of you shooting 3 gun. So how would I evaluate what you actually do ouside of there. Read it carefully. I said its a concern. And finally, you said, "Oh I ABSOLUTELY believe it is a concern which I why I tell people "This is a game, don't be an idiot and charge 12 baddies with a handgun through a door" So what exactly is it your still arguing about?

[Shane45 807]

I wish I didn type so slow. This far into it Vlad I cant understand why you are still wrestling with whats being said. Habits is probably a bad word to use. Ingrained gross muscle memory of what you do most!!! Thats what we are talking about. If you stand in an open door of 5000 stages of USPSA, under stress you are LIKELY to stand in an open door in a real situation!!!!!!!!!!!! If you send a mag with rounds in it 10,000 times into the weeds in uspsa, you will LIKELY do it in a real situation.

 

The evidence, already sighted twice in this thread, is the rash of officers that DIED picking up empty brass or mags during a gunfight because thats what they always did in training!!!

 

Another example. Army Rangers in Somalia after fast roping out of a Helo drew fire when they ran out into the open in a hot combat zone to retrieve the freeking ropes because, you guessed it, they always did it in training......

[Vlad G 345]

Well Shane I don't pick up my brass as shoot and neither does any USPSA shooter I've ever seen.

 

I guess why I'm having this conversation is because thorough this thread there have been quotes like this one from Tosser:

 

The muscle memory from matches will get you killed.

 

He didn't say "might", he didn't say "will get you killed, unless you think about it", he didn't "will get you killed unless you also trained professionally". He didn't provide an example where that ever happened.

 

That right there is a very dangerous quote. We all know that the average shooter will never attend a training class, nevermind the number of classes that it would take to achieve true competency. By your admission you agree that the gun games sharpens one's gun skills, and I'll add the ability to be SAFE or at least safer with a firearm. When average Joe reads "gun games will get you killed" and avoids participating in them while at the same time does not ge any former training, average Joe is less competent, less safe, and all around less prepared.

 

The reason I take a strong issues with these statements is because they are a grave disservice to the average shooter, potentially endangering his life or that of those around him at a later point. My goal here is to provide a response to a blanket statement, an unsubstantiated one to my point of view, even if it is based on some sound theory. It sounds good in that theory, except you can't prove it happens.

 

And then there was this:

 

I'll offer again. Come to the shoot house and run it as if it were a uspsa match. It will be an eye opener for you.

 

So I took up the offer. Not because I have anything to prove to anyone in particular and because frankly I plan to cheat. Yes I said CHEAT, because I have no intention to run a shoot house like I shoot a USPSA match. The implication from you and Tosser is that my muscle memory and the things I do in competition are so stuck to my brain that I can't do anything else. I'll like to test that theory. I've already offered that I mostly a USPSA shooter, with no formal training, not even informal training, and all my shooting skills come from USPSA. I am the IDEAL test subject for this theory. I should fail with resounding boom when my a** hits the ground.

 

If you wish to retract the offer, so be it. I won't be running around reminding you about it, as long as you don't make blanked statements like the ones above.

 

I walked half way the down the path here, stating that USPSA is not tactical training, and people who are interested should seek actual training. I even went and said that a lot of USPSA shooters do is not a good tactical plan. You guys walk the other half of the path and stop asking loaded questions like "Can gun games get you killed?" in which you state that they will without providing a single example, and admit that there aren't many other places the average Joe go can learn basic shooting skills and safe behavior and we part as "internet buddies".

[Joelk 61]

Joel, I don't strongly disagree with any particular point in great detail, but some in small detail. That however I think is besides the point, my position is testing 3ft defense against knives is besides the point in testing those issues. Yes I shouldn't quit until the attacker is dead, but as I refuse to actually shoot you with real bullets if you try to stab me in a mock fight, that isn't a particularly good way to test if I quit early or not.

 

The assumption made here is that I can't break those habits, and I can't adapt. I won't for a second disagree with you that USPSA doesn't give a crap about concealment and I never said that is a good idea in a fight. But what Shane and Tosser, and I guess you, are saying is that because I don't use concealment or cover in a game I won't do it real life, or in a scenario approximating real life. You are saying that I will only shoot twice, so mix up your targets with the kind that fall after a number of rounds I'm not aware of. You assume I quit because I flub a stage, and boy is that not me, so lets try it out.

 

You are saying that skills taught by gun games are completely unrelated to real life. Are you saying that shooting fast and accurate is not related to real life?

 

Come up with a shooting test of your choosing (not a wrestling one, as that has nothing to do with my supposed bad habits) that test that theory. Shane said he shoots informal matches designed to stress those points. I'm interested in shooting those, with real guns or guns that recoil like real guns, not airsoft pistols, or wrestling matches, they don't answer the question posed.

Vlad, I will happily participate in whatever "test" the group comes up with, and I will donate the use of my Sims Glock 17T (which approximates real recoil). I will say that reality may involve "wrestling" as you put it, knives, multiple attackers, uneven initiative, but if you want to make it into a force on force version of a gun game I will still play, but I don't know what validity it will have as a test if we take all of the reality out of it and just replicate a gun game.

 

I guess that I am saying that shooting fast and accurately is only good once you get to that stage, and I think that many are lacking the skills needed to deal with verbal, grappling, knives, etc, to get to the stage where shooting fast and accurate matter. In other words, if a criminal comes up to you, approaches you via verbal ruse, and knocks you out, all off your gun skills are useless. All of your gun game confidence just got you killed/robbed/raped/etc.

 

I am sorry if I have not responded to every issue in your post, but it is getting late, and I am getting buzzed

If you have any particular issue you would like me to address, I will be happy to do so tomorrow after work.

[Vlad G 345]

Not a problem Joel, and we completely agree. I don't think any USPSA shooter should have false confidence that their gun skills will solve every problem, never stated anything like it. My ONLY issue is that somehow the skills you do acquire in competitive shooting are DETRIMENTAL. I never maintained they are complete, ideal, or even a good idea, but I object to the theory most people can't tell the difference and they will somehow hard wire themselves to make mistakes.

 

The human race doesn't work that way, it never has. Evolution pretty much says that so far we are the MOST adaptable species and that by enlarge we react appropriately to new stimuli, even those outside our comfort zone and experience, otherwise we would slave labor for the cows, not the other way around.

[ChrisJM981 924]

...what I do have are a very particular set of skills; skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make me a nightmare for people like you...

[Joelk 61]

Well Shane I don't pick up my brass as shoot and neither does any USPSA shooter I've ever seen.

He didn't say "might", he didn't say "will get you killed, unless you think about it", he didn't "will get you killed unless you also trained professionally". He didn't provide an example where that ever happened.

 

We all know that the average shooter will never attend a training class

 

Well that post just made me reply one last time tonight(technically this morning )

Shane gave you an example of where an officer got killed due to a training scar, and while it may not be a particular training scar you have from your gun games, you have admitted to multiple training scars/bad tactical habits instilled in matches which could all cause you to screw the pooch in a real fire fight, but you somehow think you will rise above your habits in a real fight, while many studies say you will default to your training.

 

I must also say that while you may say that "the average shooter will never attend a training class" you may be correct, as there are millions of "shooters", but I would be interested in seeing how many shooters attend training vs how many shooters compete. Are you interested in a bet of how many shooters have competed/how many shooters have attended a training class?