Question on wife using my gun for HD

[msg73 1]

I'm looking to get a shotgun and/or handgun for HD. Just about to apply for FID/P2P. Now if I happen to go away on business and an intruder enters my home while my wife and kids are there, can she legally use my guns to defend herself and the kids while I'm away? I know one solution is for her to apply for FID/P2P and get her own gun(s) but how can we both protect our family without buying different guns? Last thing I want to do in a HD situation is fumble around the safe trying to figure out which gun is mine. I also don't want to buy multiple safes either if I can avoid it.

 

Thanks,

Mike

[Malsua 1,422]

In a perfect world, you each have your own guns and would defend your own lives with your own gun.

 

In a legitimate home defense situation in which it is ruled a justifiable homicide, I don't believe any prosecutor would press charges on the victim for an "illegal transfer". It can be argued that the exemptions cover the home...maybe, maybe not, who knows, it doesn't matter. Have your spouse protect herself and others in the home, asinine laws be damned.

[msg73 1]

I agree it's stupid, but I don't want to risk getting into trouble. I don't mind having my wife buy her own gun but if I'm in a HD situation and I happen to pull the wrong gun when I'm confronted, last thing I want going through my mind is "$hit, I pulled the wrong gun!"

 

I seems that it's not 100% legal to use your spouse's gun in your own home when he/she isn't present...at the very best, it's a bit fuzzy.

[SpecialK 193]

if you decide on a shotgun then here is what you do. Long guns can be transfer between two FPID holders with a simple Certificate of Eligibility, you can just print these up yourself. You both get FPID's and then you fill out COE's transferring the gun to each other dated on the same day. Keep them in separate places. If there is an incident and the shooter is asked to provide ownership of the gun you then pull out the proper COE to prove that the person was legally transfered the gun. If New Jersey wants their gun laws to be gray and fuzzy, then we shall operate just as gray and fuzzy I say.

[Malsua 1,422]

I agree it's stupid, but I don't want to risk getting into trouble. I don't mind having my wife buy her own gun but if I'm in a HD situation and I happen to pull the wrong gun when I'm confronted, last thing I want going through my mind is "$hit, I pulled the wrong gun!"

 

I seems that it's not 100% legal to use your spouse's gun in your own home when he/she isn't present...at the very best, it's a bit fuzzy.

 

The issue is the law defines where transfers may occur. The home is not included in that list. Legally, passing a gun to another person in your home is an illegal transfer.

 

We've had the discussion here before, and because the home is an exempted location it's possible the same rules don't apply. I don't know that anyone has ever been prosecuted or charged for using a spouse's gun in a legitimate self defense situation. It would seem to me that any prosecutor looking to put himself out of work might move forward with that one. The headlines "Woman threatened by rapist, shoots intruder, Essex country prosecutor now charging the victim". It's a good way to commit political suicide.

 

Now, if you were to use your wife's gun and you're not a protected class, the headline would be different. "Man who stole wife's gun and murdered aspiring rap artist sentenced to 20 years on multiple gun charges"

[SpecialK 193]

You could also have the COE already filled out and signed to transfer her the gun, just don't date it. Once the incident happens just write any date from the day of or before onto the piece of paper.

 

Me personally I would use this as an excuse to buy multiple guns though. "Oh tough luck baby we both need to buy a pistol and a shotgun each, stupid NJ gun laws!"

[SpecialK 193]

It would seem to me that any prosecutor looking to put himself out of work might move forward with that one. The headlines "Woman threatened by rapist, shoots intruder, Essex country prosecutor now charging the victim". It's a good way to commit political suicide.

 

Now, if you were to use your wife's gun and you're not a protected class, the headline would be different. "Man who stole wife's gun and murdered aspiring rap artist sentenced to 20 years on multiple gun charges"

 

I almost cried I was laughing so hard, that is just so incredibly sad and ridiculous at the same time... and most likely true.

[msg73 1]

Great idea with the shotgun. I think it makes sense to date it with the same date. Then you really can't contest it. If you're asked to provide evidence of ownership and the CoE is not dated or you're trying to fill in the date, it may look bad.

[The Dark Knight 11]

Forget legality. Does your wife even know how to use a gun?

 

Not trying to be a dick, but even if it were legal, if she can't handle, much less shoot a gun, in a self defense situation, then you have bigger problems to worry about than legality.

 

This isn't the movies.

[heaterbob 53]

get her a crossbow so she can pin perp to wall until you get home

[LorenzoS 100]

This is a complete non-issue made up by the tinfoil hat crowd. There are plenty of things to plan for in a HD situation, this is not one of them.

[M4BGRINGO 139]

I don't think she needs an FID to use your gun at your home. She can't buy her own without an FID. We are talking long guns here, not handguns. She can't transport the gun either, at least that is what I believe. If she wants to go shoot it at a gun club you need to be present since she does not have an FID and therefore can't transport it.

 

PLENTY of people go to gun ranges and rent guns to shoot that do not have an FID.

 

Now, about that seperate safe thing...........Once she gets an FID and likes guns you WILL be needing a second safe, you will run out of room fast!

 

I know it probably isn't legit, but since everything I own is my wifes and everything she owns is hers, when we find a handgun we like I pay for it and whomever has a valid handund purchase permit does the paperwork. This state is really stupid about this stuff! Since all the guns are in the same safe I have no problem doing it the way I do, maybe the state has another view, but that is to be expected. One shotgun is in her name, two handguns are in her name. Guess if we ever have to protect ourselves we will need to sort them out first.........Yeah right!

[GRIZ 3,369]

Long guns can be transfer between two FPID holders with a simple Certificate of Eligibility, you can just print these up yourself. You both get FPID's and then you fill out COE's transferring the gun to each other dated on the same day. Keep them in separate places.

 

This is a fine example of the insanity of NJ gun laws!

[Malsua 1,422]

I don't think she needs an FID to use your gun at your home. She can't buy her own without an FID. We are talking long guns here, not handguns. She can't transport the gun either, at least that is what I believe. If she wants to go shoot it at a gun club you need to be present since she does not have an FID and therefore can't transport it.

 

 

A Firearms Purchaser ID is not required to transport guns to a range. You do need to be present when she handles your guns at the range though because not to be there means you've illegally transferred the guns to her.

 

PLENTY of people go to gun ranges and rent guns to shoot that do not have an FID.

 

Ranges are allowed to temporarily transfer guns to people. The Firearms Purchaser ID is for purchase and carry(under a limited set of circumstances) of LONG GUNS. A firearms purchaser ID does not provide any legality for handguns in any situation. It does prove to a LEO that you've got an SBI number and passed a background check at some point, but FPID is meaningless for handguns.

 

Look up the statutes on temporary transfers. There are exempted spaces. Your home is not one. Scott Bach, the president of the Association of NJ Rifle and Pistol clubs claims that a judge was charged with an illegal transfer for handling a firearm in someone's home. I contacted him for more details but he said the case is sealed and he could not provide any more details.

 

Your relationship to other people in your home has no bearing on the legality of a transfer. It's not legal, it's that simple. I do not believe any prosecutor will pursue charges in a legitimate self defense shooting.

[vladtepes 1,060]

if there comes a point in her life..... where she is so fearful of her life that she has to shoot someone.. there is only one thing to keep in mind.. better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6... what jury is going to find a women who is home alone defending her life against an attacker.. guilty of anything.. I think she would be fine as long as she is not a prohibited persons..

[Old School 611]

This is a complete non-issue made up by the tinfoil hat crowd. There are plenty of things to plan for in a HD situation, this is not one of them.

 

 

+1 Complete BS. If the OP is serious about this...

[Sixtytwo327 14]

Last thing I want to do in a HD situation is fumble around the safe trying to figure out which gun is mine. I also don't want to buy multiple safes either if I can avoid it.

 

I apologize if this is a legit question, but that last part reeks of trolling...

 

If you're really worried about HD, why buy a gun? Buy one of these.

 

P.S. the police ruled self defense - no charges.

[msg73 1]

All BS aside, laws are laws and I want to try to follow them or stay in the "fuzzy" areas at best. I don't want to deliberately break them. I've shot 9mm and .45 pistols, rifles and various guage shotguns before and am a reasonablely competent shooter. My wife has never shot anything but is willing to learn. We both plan on getting FID/P2P, so long guns shouldn't be a problem with transfer with the proper COE's filled out (this is the "fuzzy" part I'm willing to consider).

 

I suppose the real answer is simple...buy a shotgun(s) and have the COE's justifying legal transfer and/or buy our own handguns.

 

I guess was just thinking of the worse case scenario where we either pull the wrong handgun mistakenly or have to pull the wrong handgun because of ours is not accessable (for whatever reason).

[msg73 1]

Apologies for the noobie questions but I'm completely serious about HD and am looking to guns as a last resort. I have young children so safety and legalities are my biggest concerns. I'm completely open to other alternatives but if the intruder(s) happen to have guns then what alternatives are there? I would love it if the only time we would use our guns were at the range, but I just want to be prepared for the worst.

[Sixtytwo327 14]

No worries - I'm new to NJ too. I therefore defer to the excellent advice already posted to this thread.

[Dan 177]

I'll bite on this.... check out my logic here. There is a fine line between transferring guns to visitors versus family or others legally living at a residence or land, etc.

 

e.Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about his place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, any firearm, or from carrying the same, in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section, from any place of purchase to his residence or place of business, between his dwelling and his place of business, between one place of business or residence and another when moving, or between his dwelling or place of business and place where such firearms are repaired, for the purpose of repair. For the purposes of this section, a place of business shall be deemed to be a fixed location.

 

Notice how the exemption does not specify "owned firearm", it says "any firearm". There are two hurdles at play here. The straw purchase and the illegal transfer angles. For a straw purchase to play out, the state would have to prove that you intentionally purchased the HG for your wife under your PP/FID. This would be difficult to prove since you live in the same house, and you obviously keep your guns in your home where the rest of your family lives. For the illegal transfer section of the law, the exemptions talk about places not including dwelling, land , or business, they talk of ranges and hunting on state property and such.

 

I'm starting to think that the reason for this is that the dwelling, land, business exemptions above pretty much covers that a person can possess ANY firearm in those places provided they live or work there, whether that gun is theirs or someone else's. There is no language of ownership in the exemption. In other words, they take possession of the firearm themselves, as in your wife taking it out of the safe herself.

 

Of course this wouldn't work if you kept your gun at a friends house, and they grabbed it and used it. In that case, the straw purchase angle looks to be more provable, as it would be easy to construe that you purchased the guns for your friend since you do not live at his house. Also, there are no exemptions for traveling from your house to his house with a HG, so the illegal transfer comes into play in that case as well. Also it still stands that handing a HG to a visiting friend that does not legally live at your home is still considered an illegal transfer, as that friend is not at their dwelling, land, residence, or place of business. Legally it is the same as you handing it to him on the street.

 

Bottom line is that your home and land it is OK for any family member or person that legally lives at your address to posses and use a gun provided they are not prohibited persons.

[Malsua 1,422]

 

Bottom line is that your home and land it is OK for any family member or person that legally lives at your address to posses and use a gun provided they are not prohibited persons.

 

You may be parsing too much into "any firearm". I do know that prohibited persons who may rent handguns, have been charged for having access to weapons legally owned by spouses. I've read the articles here, no, I don't have any cites.

 

What I agree with is that it's certainly not very clear but there's certainly no verbiage indicating that any gun in the house can be legally carried about the house by any person in the house.

 

In a home defense situation where there is a genuine threat, all this goes out the window. Stop the threat. Don't hesitate because of some issue related to bullsnit NJ laws that don't apply in 49 other states.

 

If the only defense of this asinine law is that "well, it's the law", then we need to rethink it and in a self defense situation, you follow it at your own mortal peril.

[Old School 611]

Apologies for the noobie questions but I'm completely serious about HD and am looking to guns as a last resort. I have young children so safety and legalities are my biggest concerns. I'm completely open to other alternatives but if the intruder(s) happen to have guns then what alternatives are there? I would love it if the only time we would use our guns were at the range, but I just want to be prepared for the worst.

 

 

At least you put the safety of you children before legalities. Get you and your wife some proper training and forget who owns the gun. God forbid you/she pulls the trigger, you had better just accept that your life has changed. You're going to need a lawyer either way. Put your concerns and efforts where they are most well spent.

[mrjam2jab 9]

Living in PA, I see 2 issues...forgive me if they seem overly simplistic.

 

1) The big problem is the fact that NJ law calls "borrowing" a "transfer". To me, a transfer is a change of ownership. If i let you use my gun for you range trip that day, it's not a change of ownership.

 

2) Since there is no registration, who is to say the gun she uses in that HD situation isn't hers?

[Ray Ray 3,566]

COE? No

FID? No

forms and notes and letters? No

 

Legal firearm? YES Shooter is not a Felon? No Legal justified shooting? YES

 

Sounds good to me

[Dan 177]

You may be parsing too much into "any firearm". I do know that prohibited persons who may rent handguns, have been charged for having access to weapons legally owned by spouses. I've read the articles here, no, I don't have any cites.

 

What I agree with is that it's certainly not very clear but there's certainly no verbiage indicating that any gun in the house can be legally carried about the house by any person in the house.

 

In a home defense situation where there is a genuine threat, all this goes out the window. Stop the threat. Don't hesitate because of some issue related to bullsnit NJ laws that don't apply in 49 other states.

 

If the only defense of this asinine law is that "well, it's the law", then we need to rethink it and in a self defense situation, you follow it at your own mortal peril.

 

I'm not saying "any person" , I'm saying a person who legally lives at or owns the dwelling/residence/land, or works at a "place of business" (a fixed location according to the exemptions) is permitted to posses "any firearm" while in these locations. "any firearm" in its plain definition is just that... any...provided the person is not a prohibited person, or the gun is illegal aka AW, etc.

[Malsua 1,422]

I'm not saying "any person" , I'm saying a person who legally lives at or owns the dwelling/residence/land, or works at a "place of business" (a fixed location according to the exemptions) is permitted to posses "any firearm" while in these locations. "any firearm" in its plain definition is just that... any...provided the person is not a prohibited person, or the gun is illegal aka AW, etc.

 

Fair enough. Read the statutes on transfers. They define what a transfer is. The person may be able to legally carry any gun around the residence they live in but are still guilty of an illegal transfer.

[Dan 177]

Fair enough. Read the statutes on transfers. They define what a transfer is. The person may be able to legally carry any gun around the residence they live in but are still guilty of an illegal transfer.

 

I don't think so, as there is no transfer going on. The person that lives in the home where there is a firearm located, is permitted to take possession of said "any firearm" without a need for a transfer to take place. My example is the wife taking the husband's HG from the safe herself. He is not transferring it to her, she is taking possession. The exemption clearly indicates that the wife in her dwelling/residence/land she possesses is completely within the bounds of the law.

 

Would go like this:

 

NJ to husband "did you give the HG in question to your wife?"

husband " No, she took it from my safe, she is permitted to carry a firearm in her own dwelling, residence, and land according to NJ exemptions"

 

Now when transfers come into play, is when a person takes their gun outside of their dwelling/residence/land/business and gives the gun to someone else to use (range, hunting, etc). It also applies in the person's own dwelling/land/residence/business when handing a gun to someone visiting who does not legally reside there. The act of the gun owner taking the gun outside of the exemption locations (dwelling/residence/land/business) would imply that if anyone else became in possession of the gun, a transfer would have NEEDED to occur. Not so for family in their home, where they can just take possession without precursors being met in terms of a transfer needing to take place.

[PK90 3,570]

see above

 

 

BINGO. We gave a Winner!!

[Malsua 1,422]

He is not transferring it to her, she is taking possession.

 

In NJ, that is a transfer.

 

The law is pretty clear on what a transfer is. You sound like Bill Clinton...I didn't have sex with her, she had sex with me