NJ2AS v. NJSP update and court documents

[Cemeterys Gun Blob 165]

it would if sheeple could be bothered to show up and vote, we had a golden opportunity to oust the scum but with a 20% turnout I guess gun owners dont care enough to take the 5 minutes out of there day to make a difference, thats why we are where we are.

 

5 minutes!!! Criminy, might as well make it a whole day affair!

 

'grump'

[Njgunowner 2]

This was a waste of time quite frankly unless an appeal can reverse it.

 

Ruling it an SOP doesn't do CRAP. You can't very well sue a township for violating the SOP if you don't have access to it to know WHAT they are violating. I can see it now

 

You "Town X isn't following the SOP "

Judge "what part of the sop?"

You "I don't know, they won't let me see it!"

Judge "Dismissed, next!"

 

 

We really need to be focusing on cases that can be taken at the federal court level, not wasting our time with a bunch of state judges appointed by the people who are the problem in the first place.

[Babaganoosh 192]

This was a waste of time quite frankly unless an appeal can reverse it.

 

Ruling it an SOP doesn't do CRAP. You can't very well sue a township for violating the SOP if you don't have access to it to know WHAT they are violating. I can see it now

 

You "Town X isn't following the SOP "

Judge "what part of the sop?"

You "I don't know, they won't let me see it!"

Judge "Dismissed, next!"

 

 

We really need to be focusing on cases that can be taken at the federal court level, not wasting our time with a bunch of state judges appointed by the people who are the problem in the first place.

 

I kind of agree with you but that's not how the legal system works. You have to start at the bottom and work your way up the chain. The Supreme Court doesn't just see cases that haven't worked their way up the system. Besides the federal courts aren't the problem. It's the NJ courts. It's NJ law that is screwing us as gun owners, not the feds.

[Shane45 807]

SOP declaration is very important for various reasons. A town will not be able to claim it as just a guide. When we sue a town for an egregious requirement and they reference the guide, it will need to be produced to prove their case. I have a STTTTRRRROOOONNNNGGGG suspicion that requiring essays from you wife, permission slips from cohabiting family members or letters from your job will not be found in the guide.

[Bob B 103]

We have concluded with the few remaining details that we had to address and can now announce that we will appeal the decision.

[hardlife_nef 1]

If someone has a copy leaked I'm quite sure I know someone who will release it into the wild. Apparently he is legion and should be expected. Last sentence not withstanding I am very serious. Ping me offline and it will see the light.

[hopper 36]

Just wondering what makes people think that there are members on here that have a copy ???

[david8613 69]

has anyone googled it?!?

[Twospot 38]

We have concluded with the few remaining details that we had to address and can now announce that we will appeal the decision.

 

Fantastic to see!!!

[Anselmo 87]

SOP declaration is very important for various reasons. A town will not be able to claim it as just a guide. When we sue a town for an egregious requirement and they reference the guide, it will need to be produced to prove their case. I have a STTTTRRRROOOONNNNGGGG suspicion that requiring essays from you wife, permission slips from cohabiting family members or letters from your job will not be found in the guide.

 

I still don't understand the importance of guide vs SOP. So, the town doesn't follow the SOP. It's not their SOP, it's the NJSP's SOP. The local towns are responsible for firearms, not the NJSP.

[Soju 153]

After reading through the documents, let me know if I got something wrong.

 

1. You filed for access to "The Guide" under OPRA..

2. The NJSP denied you access.

3. You took them to court for the above.

4. The NJSP has to give a response detailing why they cannot release the guide under the grounds it could cause harm.

5. They delay and request extensions multiple times.

6. Finally they give a 10 page document in which they ramble on about things without actually complying, and on the last page throw in that if released, it 'might' show how people could 'skirt' the system and allow ineligible people to obtain permits, or some BS like that. Clever really.

7. The judge either buys their BS, or has an agenda, and rules in direct contradiction to previous court rulings, because he can.

 

Did I get that pretty much right?

[Tom-NJ2AS 31]

in a nut shell, yes.

 

By the way, i was very happy to see a local police officer come in wanting to sign up. He said himself and most of his fellow officers support what we are doing. I think we need to get them more involved. Not just Toms River, but all townships.

[Babaganoosh 192]

After reading through the documents, let me know if I got something wrong.

 

1. You filed for access to "The Guide" under OPRA..

2. The NJSP denied you access.

3. You took them to court for the above.

4. The NJSP has to give a response detailing why they cannot release the guide under the grounds it could cause harm.

5. They delay and request extensions multiple times.

6. Finally they give a 10 page document in which they ramble on about things without actually complying, and on the last page throw in that if released, it 'might' show how people could 'skirt' the system and allow ineligible people to obtain permits, or some BS like that. Clever really.

7. The judge either buys their BS, or has an agenda, and rules in direct contradiction to previous court rulings, because he can.

 

Did I get that pretty much right?

 

Welcome to the united states of america's legal system.

[hopper 36]

Question is how do they think it will help someone skirt the system ??? Shouldnt the TWO background checks WE PAY FOR take care of that !!!!!!

[Shane45 807]

Anselmo, some towns are hiding behind the guide claiming the extra steps they are incorporating are based on the guide. Now since the AG's office has now stated that the guide IS SOP for the towns, it in effect locks them in to following procedure of whats in the "guide" and not turning around and saying its only a guide when all these crazy new requirements prove to NOT be in the guide. Long story short it will stop them from popping up on each side of the fence that suits them.

[david8613 69]

skirting the system, the ****'ums skirt the system all day, everyday in citys like newark, camden and paterson...i just dont get it...

[muzzelloader69 9]

when is the next court date?

[Soju 153]

Anselmo, some towns are hiding behind the guide claiming the extra steps they are incorporating are based on the guide. Now since the AG's office has now stated that the guide IS SOP for the towns, it in effect locks them in to following procedure of whats in the "guide" and not turning around and saying its only a guide when all these crazy new requirements prove to NOT be in the guide. Long story short it will stop them from popping up on each side of the fence that suits them.

 

A couple things.

1. This doesn't mean anything, and in fact, is bad. It is bad because now, it is even more reason for the police to violate the law, because they are doing so in accordance with policy and procedure. Mind you that policy and procedure is not legally binding and is very often illegal. But since when has a state prosecutor ever prosecuted a state agency in front of a state judge for breaking the law? Probably never. And if they have, they certainly wouldn't get a conviction...

 

2. It won't stop anything. They will continue to do whatever they do. Guide, no guide, it doesn't matter. In fact, because this is still "law enforcement sensitive", or secret as it might as well mean, they can still do whatever the hell they want.

 

What you have got to understand is that in this day and age, the police are not held accountable. They are in a system where they can usually do whatever they want without consequences. When they break the law, and are called out, they do "internal investigations" that nothing comes out of. When you have someone who breaks the law and works for the same people who prosecute and judge, do you really think anything comes out of it? You can tell based on just this lawsuit that it doesn't matter.

 

It really isn't that they skirt any system as much as it is they outright don't play in it.

[tommy3rd 132]

can we go find a wiki leaker?

[LorenzoS 100]

A couple things.

1. It is bad because now ... they are doing so in accordance with policy and procedure.

Not exactly, you should read the certification from the NJSP in the last filing. The NJSP representative says the reason it is not necessary to publish the guide is that there is nothing in the guide that is not already published in the statute. The clear implication is that anything a local PD tries to do outside the statute is therefore outside the guide and therefore not permitted. No more trying to blame the NJSP Guide.

 

 

2. It won't stop anything. They will continue to do whatever they do. Guide, no guide, it doesn't matter.

Unfortunately I completely agree with you here. The bottom line is we are a minority in NJ, with a position that is generally unpopular. Asking for fair treatment under the law is similar to a black man asking for fair treatment in 1964 Alabama. The regulations are oppressive and the authorities don't even have to abide by the few protections that exist.

 

I think the only hope lies in federal courts, or in leaving this place entirely.

[djg0770 481]

The NJSP representative says the reason it is not necessary to publish the guide is that there is nothing in the guide that is not already published in the statute. The clear implication is that anything a local PD tries to do outside the statute is therefore outside the guide and therefore not permitted. No more trying to blame the NJSP Guide.

 

The basic problem I have with this statement is simply this: If there's nothing in the guide that is not already in the statute then WHY is the guide not released? The statute is available for all to see - this is not Nazi Germany, Kim Jong Il's Korea, or Stalin's Russia, the guide should be released, PERIOD. Terrorists are NOT getting FPID cards, Pistol Permits, etc. They're flying airplanes into buildings, lighting shoes on fire or their underwear.

 

This is complete and total BS. Someone should get in Christie's face at a press conference and ask these simple facts.

[Parker 213]

The basic problem I have with this statement is simply this: If there's nothing in the guide that is not already in the statute then WHY is the guide not released?

I agree.

[deadeye74 5]

First off, WOW! I just skimmed through all 8 pages of posts on this topic! I would like to say thank you to those fighting in court for our rights.

 

My $.02 on this....

 

A SOP is standard operating procedure, and not law. It's good the judge came out and noted on record that the guide in question is an SOP. Now the tricky part as I see is usually these SOP's exist so the rank and file know how to preform a specific task, weather it be request a day off, handle a car stop, etc... They also exist so if someone files a law suit or files charges against a PD, FD, etc., the agency in question has a document that says "this is how we do _________" . If a suit is filed against the NJSP for not following procedures, I would imagine that under the rules of legal discovery, the SOP in question would have to be disclosed or subpoenaed.

 

Has anyone tried looking up to see if any cases exist where NJSP personnel were dismissed or disciplined for not following the SOP in question? I know these things usually end up getting sealed but you never know.

[LorenzoS 100]

The basic problem I have with this statement is simply this: If there's nothing in the guide that is not already in the statute then WHY is the guide not released?

Their position is that although the requirements are public, they must keep secret their 'investigative procedures.' It's total BS but at least it helps to fight towns making additional requirements such as credit reports, notarized statements from spouses or employers, etc.

 

As I said in my other post, the sad fact is that most NJ citizens have a low opinion of firearms and the people who own them, and indeed believe discriminating against us is a good thing. Don't blame the AG, governor, legislature, the courts or the police. This is the will of your fellow citizens.

[muzzelloader69 9]

so, does anybody no the date of the next court hearing?

[djg0770 481]

Don't blame the AG, governor, legislature, the courts or the police.

 

Wait - the AG makes the law (believe me I know what the AG is supposed to do, but this is NJ), the governor (Fatty Arbuckle) appoints the AG, the legislature makes the law except when the AG wants to make the law, the courts enforce some unwritten bs and the police enforce whatever they want (see post by KPDpipes regarding his attempt to educate fellow LEOs who just don't give a rats behind as to what's actually written in the law.

 

But I should blame my neighbor? Yeah - not so much man.

[djg0770 481]

so, does anybody no the date of the next court hearing?

 

No. We don'ts no nuthin.

[Bob B 103]

when is the next court date?

 

There is no court date for the appeal set as of yet. There are a few things that have to happen first, including filing our appeal, and submitting our brief. I would think that our next court date would be in June, the earliest.

[muzzelloader69 9]

yea, then there will be delays , then more back and fourth delays , so were probably looking at sometime in 2013. GREAT

[Soju 153]

Not exactly, you should read the certification from the NJSP in the last filing. The NJSP representative says the reason it is not necessary to publish the guide is that there is nothing in the guide that is not already published in the statute. The clear implication is that anything a local PD tries to do outside the statute is therefore outside the guide and therefore not permitted. No more trying to blame the NJSP Guide.

 

 

Oops, I must have missed that. If that is in fact the case, then I can't possibly see how they are not lying. If there is nothing other than what is in the statues, then there is nothing sensitive, and it would legally have to be released. So either there is stuff in there that is sensitive, or there is stuff in there that is illegal that they don't want to be shown. So either way, something is going on that shouldn't be.