National guard taking Camden

[hd2000fxdl 422]

Camden need a Mayor like Mayor Dunn....

[bbk 188]

Who ever suggested displacing the criminals while leveling Camden ? As was said, they'd only come back. What needs to be done (and yes, I know it's a stretch and will never be done) is total annihilation of the criminals and yes, I am talking about taking appropriate measures to ensure they cease to exist. Do that by whatever means necessary. I've mentioned it once before, but I love the "Escape from New York" model of handling criminals. That would definitely work and could be a great deterrent. Only problem is these bleeding-heart, protect human-life idiots. They would see it as "cruel and unusual punishment".

This is ridiculous because who and how will "criminal" be defined moving forward into the future? With the current attitude already in NJ, gun owners could potentially be thrown into said environment along with the rapists and murderers... same could be applied to bloggers who the government could shut down and would not want to be silenced, and joe-schmo who illegally downloaded thousands of songs but was otherwise a model citizen.

 

These crazy notions of how criminals should be treated and the issues with places like Camden should be considered make me realize how sad and far from a solution we actually are. Oh well.

[vladtepes 1,060]

This is ridiculous because who and how will "criminal" be defined moving forward into the future? With the current attitude already in NJ, gun owners could potentially be thrown into said environment along with the rapists and murderers... same could be applied to bloggers who the government could shut down and would not want to be silenced, and joe-schmo who illegally downloaded thousands of songs but was otherwise a model citizen.

 

These crazy notions of how criminals should be treated and the issues with places like Camden should be considered make me realize how sad and far from a solution we actually are. Oh well.

 

what are the steps in your solution.. and how does it differ from the other areas where people attempted to instill a sense of community worth... I am not saying your answer is wrong.. I am just saying I have observed communities where they attempted to better it from the inside out.. and all that happened was the good people kept getting kicked down... sure the nice family on the street might buy into it.. sure they want a park that is not filled with drug dealers... but when they try to better things.. by sticking up for a better community.. by doing something like giving a witness statement instead of looking the other way.. they come home from church Sunday morning to find their house burned to the ground... good people exist everywhere.. and sure they want things to be better... but they are passive and hidden now and STILL not guaranteed safety.. if the goodness in the community is pushed from the inside in places like Camden who is going to actually defend these people... a crack dealer is not going to wake up Monday morning and be like.. you are right.. this $300k a year job selling drugs is not the answer.. I am going to embrace good... turn in my guns.. and get a job at WaWa.. there has to be a presence of force... one that will kick down the bad and allow the good to grow.. without that.. you will just have a bunch of dead good people..

 

Atlantic City is a prime example.. they made a bad area really nice.. they interviewed residence.. everyone was so happy.. go there now and there are drug dealers.. dirt needles.. vandalism.. nothing changed..

[vjf915 456]

Ben has a great point, and I'm pretty sure I understand what he's getting at. How many times do you see gangbangers and hardened criminals get little to no penalties for their actions? A couple years back, a gang member stepped on a public bus and opened fire at a random gang member. The gang member was hit in the arm. A 12 year old girl was also hit in the chest, and suffered from a collapsed lung. This gang member got 6 years. THIS IS COMMON. Instances like this are where the book needs to be thrown at the criminal to keep them out of society. Someone who has such a disregard for laws and the safety of others is not going to learn their lesson for minor charges like that. Not a chance, they'll never learn. Capital punishment, or keep them off the streets as long as possible. At this point, it's sickening.

[Krdshrk 3,878]

Commercial Avenue still the "nice" place it used to be? I went to Rutgers in the mid-80's and knew where to avoid being after sunset. Heck, some places were just as bad during the day!

 

Still bad. Remsen ave is still bad. Some areas are coming up sorta.... They're rebuilding a lot in downtown. New apartment buildings near the train station.

[this_is_nascar 162]

This is ridiculous because who and how will "criminal" be defined moving forward into the future? With the current attitude already in NJ, gun owners could potentially be thrown into said environment along with the rapists and murderers... same could be applied to bloggers who the government could shut down and would not want to be silenced, and joe-schmo who illegally downloaded thousands of songs but was otherwise a model citizen.

 

These crazy notions of how criminals should be treated and the issues with places like Camden should be considered make me realize how sad and far from a solution we actually are. Oh well.

 

 

Wow. No need to be insulting. What's your solution there big-boy?

[hd2000fxdl 422]

Someone who has such a disregard for laws and the safety of others is not going to learn their lesson for minor charges like that. Not a chance, they'll never learn. Capital punishment, or keep them off the streets as long as possible. At this point, it's sickening.

 

^^^ This...

[bbk 188]

I wasn't being insulting, I just said it was a ridiculous notion. I never said anybody was wrong, as being 'wrong' and being 'ridiculous' are, admittedly, personal opinions. And, as I've always said, personal opinions are never wrong. If you feel offended, I apologize as that wasn't my intention.

 

Now the reason why I feel it is ridiculous is because people fling these notions and ideas around without necessarily considering a larger scope. To simply put on blinders and go in one direction can result in people missing other options, being mislead easily, and, most importantly, creating an opinion without the larger facts in mind. Maybe it is my own personal philosophy, but not thinking through every last detail and coming to a conclusion drives me nuts.

 

I've detailed my solution at least twice in previous posts in this thread. However, since you asked, I will oblige.

The basis of the solution is that the community must make the change, and not external forces. This does not necessarily apply to just the gangbangers and thugs, though they are key to the change. The real change must be made by the vast majority of residents who are hardworking and honest individuals who are just in a bad social environment. This applies to the mothers and fathers, daughters and sons-- as well as the first responders and politicians.

Gangbangers and thugs are not necessarily the problem, but are consequences of the larger issue. The larger issue is the acceptance of this degrading behavior and the lack of wanting to do more. This is a fault of not just the individuals, but a systemic issue as well. This is the reason why the problem is larger then just a mother and father being fed up and standing up for their families. It is the reason why first responders and politicians must be willing to also take part. First responders in the sense that their application must be at the community level, and not necessarily as just enforcers. To reach out and be a part of the community instead of taking positions of authority help bridge the gap between authoritarians and the application of force (when necessary) and the understanding of why such things are necessary. The politicians play a role because they must truly represent the change itself that is required and not just be a puppet-head or push things for self-glory. Politicians, IMO, are the weak-link in this whole solution because without their contributions, the rest easily falls short. And this is because politicians do not necessarily hold the most power ("power" in the anthropological/sociological term-- which, arguably, lies with the people, regardless of political machinations), but they hold the most exposure.

When things come together, the solution is a community that doesn't necessarily love and respect each other in a collective/hippie way, but have respect and an understanding of what is the greater stake. While the big picture is the point and requires the assertion of the different levels, much of it boils down to the individuals. As Edmund Burke said, "All that's necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing."

 

This is not a far-fethced solution because this does not require a perfect world. This solution requires an understanding that neighbors can in fact be neighbors, and not necessarily bad people. This is not an idealized notion because, again, I'm not saying that people need to love each other. I'm simply saying that people should respect each other. As a person who does not innately trust or really like people, I don't find anybody relatively distasteful. Even for my greatest enemies (as defined), I of course wanted to destroy them, but I do hold a certain level of respect as well. So, "respect" and "liking" are two different concepts.

 

As for the necessary application of force, agreed, it must be so-- and I've said that before in previous posts. There must always be a necessary application of force by the authorities, but not as a solution, but as a reminder of "order." The application of force by the authorities in an authortative manner results in ill-will towards the authorities, and degrades the trust between the authorities and the masses. This is digressive to the overall goal. This application is not a manner of justice and order, but reflections of personal needs for satisfaction-- whether that is from insecurities or just bad people (this being the broad term). The application of force as a means of "order" is different because it reminds people that authorities are not authortative, but are in place to maintain a sense of order... or I should say a sense of "not chaos." The idea of order is idealized, agreed, and, like most ideals and beliefs, cannot be ever truly fulfilled (every religion and belief is based off a notion that is perfect-- which humans are incapable of as we are, innately, imperfect creatures. This is not a negative aspect, as this "imperfectness" is a result of our ability to be self-aware and "philosophize"... which is an aspect that makes us unique as a species). However, "not chaos" makes sense because chaos itself is an every day occurence. Chaos is when things are simply not as they should be in a negative manner, in which innovation creates no solution. So, by authorities maintaining the levels of chaos, they are doing what is not asked of them, but required of them (or they have no role to fill). This is the necessary application of force.

 

By throwing force into the mix as the answer, what occurs is that there is a power struggle that increases exponentially until one is completely obliterated, which, in many cases, is beyond our imaginations. Bring a gun, the other side brings a bigger one. Bring the troops, the other sides bring ways of combating troops. Mass detentions, the other side finds ways of destroying the other's will to fight. Shock and awe as a response to that, and the entrenched, even decimated, create illusions and delusions for others to fight in their passing. Etc, etc, etc. Sounds familiar, sure, but it is not just applied to wars, but to the fabric of social evolution [in regards to conflict]. This is not to say that this is a possibility for Camden, but one cannot dismiss the notion either.

Also, the application of force as a solution maintains the one idea of fear. Fear of course being a very strong emotion with very irrational responses, as apparent in the wake of 9/11. People often dismiss fear as long as it is not at their doorstep. [/sarcasm on] Wiretaps? Black bagged? Torture? Gitmo? Who cares because we have not been targeted by such things. So, as long as it isn't happening to us or in our backyard, who cares? In fact, do it!!!!! [/sarcasm off] What occurs is that we allow these things to occur, but when these horrors enter our realm of understanding, they become a reality. They become more then just an afterthought, but something truly tangible. Now, again, these are not literal examples of what could occur. These are examples of fear, and how fear is a product of our known realities.

The application of force as a solution and this notion of fear intertwine because we don't see or come to understand the notion of fear as long as the force is not being applied to us. We do not know how we react, whether we are talking about the emotional/psychological, or outwardly. As I previously said, humans tend to do very irrational things when in fear, and these results can be detrimental to the self, to the community, or to both (often both). So, while the application of force as a solution is scary in itself, what is more worrisome is the reaction to this application of force as a solution through fear. And what occurs is the above, and then the continuing cycle of destruction.

 

This cycle of destruction via fear can morph into an acceptance of the violence ("violence" in the anthropological term, which is not necessarily physical, but violence in any matter, whether verbal, psychological, culturally, etc). This acceptance of violence can result in a varied response, whether it is being able to make jokes about said violence; discussing it freely without understanding the repercussions; and even becoming a slave to said violence. This is the issue that I see currently in communities like Camden; but also around the world in places like Syria, Afghanistan, pre-OIF Iraq, parts of eastern Europe during the Balkan Wars (and around that time)... and even in America with the treatment towards many minority groups.

Now, I understand that there will always be violence amongst people, as that is human nature (I will stand behind this argument for the rest of my life). However, if enough of both sides of the violence want a solution, isn't that enough to say "enough"? I see this to be the case in places like Camden.

 

So, yes, this is a long-winded answer, but it is what was asked. I'm sure I could go on and on about this, but there is only so much reading people will do. Also, I'm not trying to sway anybody or say that what I think is right. As I said from the beginning, this is my opinion, and it can be right or wrong, that is up to the individual to decide. With that said, I do not want anybody to read this and be like *LIGHTBULB* and accept what I've said as true. Again, this is my opinion, and it is great if people can read this and maybe start to understand that there are more perspectives than just one or two. As in most things I do in life for others, I would rather open people's minds to the possibilities, and let them walk the path via their own agency.

[Kaiser7 33]

Is anyone familiar with the Opium epidemic in China? For hundreds of years the Chinese people had a large population of Opium addicts. When the communists came to power, they had no use for these people, so they massacred them all. Anyone found to have used opium, or be suspected of it, were literally dragged into the street and shot.

 

Take that however you want it. I personally think they should execute the murders and rapists, but then again, if the government thinks you speak out a little too much... Just look at that Julian Assange of Wikileaks, notice they couldn't get him to stop, so all of a sudden two women step forward and accuse him of Rape...

 

We're currently entering a time where the constitution means less and less. It might end up being to our benefit if laws are lax in this regard....

[BarkNBite 15]

I remember back in the '60s when I was in Newark during the riots...........was sitting having lunch in a restaurant in the south district. In the restaurant was the upper brass of the Nat'l Guard eating lunch. Owner was kidding with them and I recall hearing one of the Lt.s say that thier men were not issued ammo for their rifles......we all laughed and when the restaurant owner asked him why.....his response was ' WE DON'T WANT THEM KILLING EACH OTHER".............no joke.

[SpecialK 193]

This is not a dis on the National Guard or Reserves, I have the high regards for the men and women willing to serve in any capacity. In fact I am having a going away party for one of my little buddies I almost consider a son this weekend before he goes off to basic b/c he joined the Guard to show him how proud I am of him.

 

When I was in Iraq my unit got a reserve unit attached to us briefly. They ended up running the mess hall, cleaning up our area and guarding gates that really didn't need to be guarded. The NG and Reserve soldiers are not typically mea lean fighting machines, they are your neighbour in camo. A buddy of mine got called back up and had to go back over with a reseve unit from Hawaii. He said that he was more worried about friendly fire than form the Iraqis and when they got there it was such a BS assignment that they didn't see any action for the whole 18 months (thankfully). Calling on the National Guard for police support is assinine and nothing more than a show of force. If the bluff is called it will end very very badly.

[bulpup 98]

Random BS assignments were all over. On our fob they brought in an active duty postal unit to run our mail and do all that clean up stuff.

 

My Reserve unit ran 7k JP-8 tankers and our own gun trucks for 7 months in mile long convoys. We only gave up the GT's when we gave them to a Guard unit that came in mid-tour so that our motor pool could keep up with the IED damage to the M915's. We finished out the deployment running that jet fuel all over the northern 2/3rd's of Iraq. F'in IED's all over the place. 58 CAB's

 

But I will agree, some of those soldiers really scared the **** out of me as far as weapons. One guy shot and friend of his in the neck accidentally with a month to go.

[Soju 153]

It seems my thoughts have already been stated by others in much more detail than I am willing to go into. But I'll say it anyways.

 

Camden lays off a bunch of police, and crime goes up, because there are less guys with guns. Solution? Send in the National Guard, because they have guns. But of course letting the general population have guns would be bad? Seems like an easy solution if you take out the politically and financially based agenda...

[jeklog 7]

?????

[vjf915 456]

?????

I don't fully understand your question. Would you mind rephrasing it?

[vladtepes 1,060]

I don't fully understand your question. Would you mind rephrasing it?

 

I just went to +1 you.. and then I failed.. so I will just say.. great post.. the subtlety of it was perfect..

[vjf915 456]

I just went to +1 you.. and then I failed..

I've done this so many times too, quite disappointing. Funny thing is my first thought was to +1 you for this post

[Kaiser7 33]

I've done this so many times too, quite disappointing. Funny thing is my first thought was to +1 you for this post

 

I've done that a bit too. I saw this thread the other day looking for something else... Whatever happened with this, did the guard go in?

[silverado427 10,837]

Here is the problem. When they had all their cops Camden was still one of the most dangerous cities in America so that wasn't working. I'm not for the military patrolling our streets. It I think in Camden it's the only option at this point. That city is one step away from becoming Somalia.

+1

[Shawnmoore81 623]

I'll call the guy today who was training to go

[Teufelhunden 6]

Somewhat related:

http://www.myfoxchicago.com/dpp/news/metro/military-blackhawks-circle-downtown-skies-honing-urban-battle-skills-chicago-20120416

 

From the article:

"Calling it routine training, city officials said in a statement such exercises are conducted by military personnel in various cities around the country. They say the exercises are designed to improve the military's ability to operate in urban environments."

[BarkNBite 15]

Camden is a lost cause..................IMO........so is Newark.....no matter how much money they pump into it.

[Krdshrk 3,878]

Camden is a lost cause..................IMO........so is Newark.....no matter how much OF OUR money they pump into it.

Fixed

[BarkNBite 15]

Thank You............

[silverado427 10,837]

Its time to stop throwing money down these rat hole's, its time to start putting commercial chippers in the center of each sheet hole town, and start throwing the useless members of society in it. THERE IS NO DETERRENCE TO CRIME , THE CRIMINALS JUST DON'T G A F. This may sound a little drastic to some, But its just my opinion !

[johnp 45]

I think Seal Team 6 would fix this problem pretty swiftly.

[this_is_nascar 162]

What's sad about this is that many neighboring towns are now becoming the "Camden/Newark of 35-Years Ago". Unless something is done, those towns will also find themselves eroded and troubled. Over 4-decades ago, I lived in the Cramer Hill section of Camden. It was your typical neighborhood, full of kids and working families, doing what it took to raise their kids and survive. Fast forward to now and it's heart-breaking for those few decent people that are still left.

[vjf915 456]

I spoke to a friend in the NG today. He's a little unsure of how many will be going in. But he's telling me we are looking at 3 man teams that will initially work with local PD, and then break off on their own after they're familiar with the area. They will most likely be armed with M9's, with one man in each three man team armed with an M4 w/ M203 with tear gas. Him and I both feel like if ANYTHING happens, there will be riots. We're hoping that the NG shows up, and the gangbangers decide not to call their bluff.

[BlueLineFish 615]

This will end with riots.

 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

[jeklog 7]

that was my question, if this happened?