Revolver for HD

[Duppie 73]

Until I saw it with my own eyes, I was in the same boat as you. I truly believed that the rifle rounds would zip through everything. If someone would have told me the results of the test ahead of time, I would've thought they were a fool. It is most assuredly counter intuitive for the rifle rounds to behave in that manner. If you ever get a chance to attend some ballistic training/seminar you should definitely go. it is eye-opening to say the least.

Is it a case where a rifle round needs the benefit of time and space to reach terminal velocity? Ie: impact penetration and damage at 7 yards is substantially less than impact at 20 yards where round is traveling faster and damage is greater because of gain in velocity?

[High Exposure 5,664]

Duppie,

 

There are no traditional firearms today where it's projectile increases velocity after leaving the barrel. As soon as the expanding gas can escape the barrel it stops pushing the projectile, ergo, the projectile begins to drop to the earth and lose velocity due to gravity, friction and other atmospheric effects.

 

The terminal ballistic effects of a projectile fired from a 5.56/.223 rifle has more to do with its high speed and low weight as compared to pistol caliber carbines or shotguns, who's projectile's are much heavier and travel at a much slower relative speeds.

 

It was explained to me like this:

Picture a 5.56/.223 rifle bullet - low weight and high-speed, as a motorcycle traveling 100 miles an hour.

 

For a pistol caliber bullet or shotgun round (shot or slug) picture a Mack truck going 50 miles an hour.

 

If they both hit an identical structure which do you think would be easier to stop. The motorcycle will quickly bleed off all of its remaining energy and come to a stop much sooner than the Mack truck. This rapid and violent transfer of energy from a low weight projectile moving at such a fast speed is what gives the rifle round it's devastating terminal effect while limiting its penetration.

 

ETA: An added bonus is that, like a motorcycle hitting a wall at 100mph, the 5.56/.223 round will break into many smaller pieces, each creating it's own path trough tissue causing more permanent wound cavities. Also, contrary to popular myth, the round does not tumble.

Edited November 14, 2012 by High Exposure

[Duppie 73]

Unfortunately Dynamics was not offered in my small liberal arts college and I guess it shows.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

Rick, I'm not going to change your mind and you won't change mine. But your not going to beat a 12 gauge round (00, 0, #4, BB, slug, birdshot) inside the confines of your home. I prefur many larger holes over one tiny one. Now, if I had to go outside of the house (which is not part of this discussion since home defense ends at the door) then an AR or the like would be my choice.

[High Exposure 5,664]

Rick, I'm not going to change your mind and you won't change mine. But your not going to beat a 12 gauge round (00, 0, #4, BB, slug, birdshot) inside the confines of your home. I prefur many larger holes over one tiny one. Now, if I had to go outside of the house (which is not part of this discussion since home defense ends at the door) then an AR or the like would be my choice.

 

Brother, that first sentence is truth. The rest of that paragraph.... Well....

 

Yeah, that first sentence is true anyway

[Ray Ray 3,566]

Brother, that first sentence is truth. The rest of that paragraph.... Well....

 

Yeah, that first sentence is true anyway

 

I guess I'm old school and your, well, wrong.

[alec.mc 180]

 

 

I guess I'm old school and your, well, wrong.

 

I can respect everybody's opinion , but IMO recommending an AR15 or any rifle round for inside your home is absolutely ridiculous. I haven't seen any ballistics data comparing the 2. But from what I've seen .223/7.62 fly through everything including mild steel like butter, where as buckshot with bounce off. Drywall and plywood will be no match, if you live in an area like mine, my closest neighbor is a mere 12' from house to house, not worth the risk, unless you live on a farm or something.

 

I'll still believe that shotgun and revolvers are king.

[M4BGRINGO 139]

I'll send the wife with her revolver first, I'll be coming later with a shotgun to finish what's left.

[Jon 264]

Alec, believe it or not, but a highspeed light bullet will penetrate household construction far less than buckshot/pistols.

[alec.mc 180]

Alec, believe it or not, but a highspeed light bullet will penetrate household construction far less than buckshot/pistols.

 

This is actually interesting to me, conventional wisdom would say otherwise. I'll have to do some research on this.thanks jon

[High Exposure 5,664]

 

 

I guess I'm old school and your, well, wrong.

 

 

 

 

I can respect everybody's opinion , but IMO recommending an AR15 or any rifle round for inside your home is absolutely ridiculous. I haven't seen any ballistics data comparing the 2. But from what I've seen .223/7.62 fly through everything including mild steel like butter, where as buckshot with bounce off. Drywall and plywood will be no match, if you live in an area like mine, my closest neighbor is a mere 12' from house to house, not worth the risk, unless you live on a farm or something.

 

I'll still believe that shotgun and revolvers are king.

 

Hi Alec,

 

You may think its ridiculous to use a 5.56/.223 carbine/rifle for HD but it really isn't. You yourself said that you haven't seen any ballistic data comparing the two. I have, anecdotally, scientifically, and in person. And like I said earlier in the thread, at first glance the results are counter-intuitive at best.

 

You have to know that any round that is appropriate to use in an anti-personnel role (FYI: I do not count birdshot, BB shot, etc... as serious self defense/AP ammo) will penetrate construction materials to some degree. One major factor to consider though, is how much of the original mass of the projectile is retained after passing through the barrier and at what speed are the remnants traveling. That is the key.

 

Cops, a profession with some of the most risk averse bosses out there, carry 5.56/.223 rifles into homes and apartments on a regular basis, and most agencies are moving away from shotguns and issuing 5.56/.223 rifles in their place, ever wonder why? The MP5 and other subguns are no longer being carried by members of Tactical/SWAT teams, and are being replaced with M4s and other 5.56/.223 carbines for many of the same reasons (additionally their inability to penetrate body armor with their pistol caliber rounds is another reason). The shotguns are being relegated to breaching duty. Think about that. Shotguns are being used specifically for their ability to shoot through walls and destroy the framework around doors/hinges/and lock, using specially formulated ammo that is designed to disintegrate upon passing through and defeating its target material. Why the special round you ask? Because traditional shotgun rounds that are initially sufficient to destroy the lock/hinge/frame also remain lethal for a good distance after the round has fully penetrated the wall and continues into the room behind it.

 

In 2009 a Jersey City cop was killed and others wounded when a barricaded gunmen opened fire through the wall of his apartment and shot the SWAT cops stacked in the hallway with 00 and Slugs from a stolen Mossberg shotgun. Some of these rounds penetrated a solid wall and bounced off of a ballistic shield in the hallway outside the apartment door before striking the officer in the face and neck killing him. If you think 00B and Slugs won't penetrate typical housing construction you are wrong.

 

By the way, I mention only 5.56/.223 and specifically not 7.62/.308 because I don't have any data and haven't seen any testing. I am ASSuming that since the 7.62/.308 has both the high speed of a 5.56/.223 combined with the higher weight of a pistol type cartridge that it may not be the best choice for that role, but I don't know so I am not saying either way.

 

Keep your shotguns and revolvers as you HD weapons of choice. You are not under gunned and I would not hesitate to use either if that was what was at hand. I will keep my AR and SA pistols. We will never change each others minds. Just know the limitations of your chosen tools and ammo. I do.

 

Alec, believe it or not, but a highspeed light bullet will penetrate household construction far less than buckshot/pistols.

 

Cheers j0n!

[Ray Ray 3,566]

I'll still stick with multiple projectles in one shot than one single little bullet. More projectiles means more hits which means more ouchies for the bad guy which means bad guy goes away.

[Parker 213]

A shotgun slug has enormous penetration capabilities, despite being so soft (most are, some are not.) CO's in N.J. investigate about a handful of NTIs' (non-target impacts) of homes hit by pellets or slugs every hunting season. The example in the link provided exhibits the penetration capabilities of a shotgun slug, which occurred back in February of this year. The slug penetrated the side of a home, went through the linen closet, and ended up on the floor of the bathroom. The hunter who fired the shot was more than 400 yards away, well beyond the "safety zone" distance that's designated.

http://www.nj.com/ne...g_incident.html

 

While extremely lethal, a slug would not be my first choice for home defense. I don't know if I would ever get a .410. Maybe for competition skeet, but not much else. I appreciate technology advancement, but folks try to make the .410 shotshell something it's not, and I'm not that open-minded anymore. JMHO

[Socom 19]

I'll still stick with multiple projectles in one shot than one single little bullet. More projectiles means more hits which means more ouchies for the bad guy which means bad guy goes away.

what are we 3 raymundo?

[hd2000fxdl 422]

This is actually interesting to me, conventional wisdom would say otherwise. I'll have to do some research on this.thanks jon

 

Glad I don't live next door to you. hahaha

[JackDaWack 2,895]

This is actually interesting to me, conventional wisdom would say otherwise. I'll have to do some research on this.thanks jon

 

Physic's 101 brother.... MOMENTUM! Once a projectile leaves the barrel it begins to accelerate in the OPPOSITE direction of forward motion. The more momentum a projectile carries the slower the acceleration in relation. Primary example is comparing buckshot to a slug, but that is an extreme example.

 

 

 

.556 55X3000= 3.26N

 

9mm 125x1180= 2.91N

 

Not a big difference between the 2. Not even taking into consideration what happens to the bullet when it actually hits something. take into account the material strength and how the force is applied. 9mm has more lead and is thus more structural. So you have to look at how much force the bullet can take before it brakes.

[Shocker 151]

Not a big diff in momentum but a diff in energy since the velocity term is squared. Many "experts" believe tissue damage comes from energy deposition (breaking of bonds in muscle, bone takes energy). And a mushrooming or fragmenting bullet sheds energy fastest.

 

And obviously if that energy is deposited in sheetrock there's none left for your neighbor.

[fishnut 2,358]

My wife can not consistantly rack a semi auto probably not at all under stress and she is not comfortable with my revolver because the grip is kinda large for her. However she is comfortable with a 12g mossy 500 cruzer she dose well with the recoil so that is her go to HD gun but we dont have kids to worry about so it just sits under the bed.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Not a big diff in momentum but a diff in energy since the velocity term is squared. Many "experts" believe tissue damage comes from energy deposition (breaking of bonds in muscle, bone takes energy). And a mushrooming or fragmenting bullet sheds energy fastest.

 

And obviously if that energy is deposited in sheetrock there's none left for your neighbor.

didnt even think about that!! good point.

 

"One can think of energy absorption as force times distance, and momentum absorption as force times time. Hence, a heavier but slower bullet with the same energy will travel the same distance in the absorbing material, but because of larger momentum, will take a longer time doing it. It will thereore also impart a greater "kick" to the absorber object."

 

Basically, momentum will determine the punch delivered. Will the force applied be for a longer or shorter amount of time. And K.E. determines how much force it takes to stop the bullet...

 

So the punch between a 9mm and .223 is close, but the actual energy it takes to stop one is close to a 65% difference. of course in a perfect world where so many variables are constant. however, a lighter bullet will loose its energy much faster. Which is why its related to distance.