So much for Sweeney helping

[ryan_j 0]

Please point your friends to post #15 above. Either they dont care enough to get themselves of the list or I call BS. Are the stopped and blocked from flying or delayed??/ BIG DIFFERENCE.

 

There's no guarantee of getting off the list. You can ask to be removed but they have the final say.

 

It's not hard to get on the list. Let's say a terrorist uses your real name as an alias and gets caught. Boom. YOUR name gets put on the terror watch list. It happened to Edward M Kennedy. What if someone else has the same name as you? Their name gets put on the list but you can get flagged as them. Happened to a Catholic Nun by the name of Sister Glenn Anne McPhee. The USCCB had to call the White House to get her name removed.

[H.M. Murdock 0]

Your right... maybe I should. I will write a blog about it... But until that happens I have better things to do like trying to figure out how to keep my 2a rights in this state. Like keeping the tinfoil from getting to tight, making sure that the uneducated get informed and that the politicians that think they lord over us are kicked out of office.

 

Want to join me or do you want to bicker some more?

 

Ok, you got a bite..

 

 

Exactly, you are defending your 2A rights rather than everyone's.

 

I'm going to defend both my 2A rights and the guy's next to me. As well as the right to due process.

 

This is not tin foil stuff here. The bill does not realize a working appeals process for getting a FPID or PTP if you are on the watch list by mistake. And the bill passed in Assembly unamended.

 

Do I want to join you? How about you join me? I've been at Trenton every time, I've been writing, emailing and calling elected officials, etc. And I've been replying to posts like this in defense of the 2A.

 

Yes I am going to bicker with you now because your willingness to throw due process out the window is sending chills down my back.

 

Note that no one in the legistature has actually asked if we're willing to trade the TWL bill for the 10 round Mag bill. They both passed in Assembly. I'm not sure why you are offering it up as Sophie's choice.

[axeman_g 128]

_{I get it... the list is a PIA. And these things do happen... I know they do. I also know there is a way off the list and has been for about 7 years or more. And it is messy I know.}

 

_{But did you ever stop to think about how succesful it has been!}

 

_{I know of many plots, and a few started attempts foiled and hundreds of people not allowed to fly into the US because of it. And I dont know much of what else....}

 

_{worth it?}

[NJCK 5]

I've been saying for a couple weeks, don't hold much hope in Sweeney with the possible exception of him killing the few Bills that run afoul of existing laws. I live in Sweeney's District and have been on him since this started. Responses to my correspondence to him are in no way positive or even encouraging, and he's refused to meet with me to discuss the issues or specific Bills.

[greatgunstatenj 32]

Yes, that I bet there is 1 in 10000 people on the TWL that is there by mistake. Either they have the same name as a know terrorist (Timothy MacVeigh????) or by erroneous inclusion.

 

Funny part is they probably do flag people with his name, and he's been dead for more than a decade!

[DirtyDigz 1,812]

_{...I also know there is a way off the list and has been for about 7 years or more....}

 

Can you describe the process for getting off the list in more detail?

[axeman_g 128]

Been there as well and been mailing and talking to people. dont martyr yourself, it is unbecoming.

 

Yep... our due process was thrown out the window in 2001. By someone mainy of you thought of as a great president and many people welcomed it. To keep our freedoms we had to let some go. Do I like it not one bit. Do I feel the need to accept it... yes I do.

 

I am pretty sure I will not ever end up on that list and I hope nobody else does, that does not deserve it of course. It exists and it is succesful. I accept it. You accept what you want to, I bet there are many more things we dont agree on.

 

And I know there was no trading offered... it was hypothetical.

[ryan_j 0]

I am pretty sure I will not ever end up on that list

 

Just wait until SHTF and they put more of the screws on the coffin of the 2nd amendment.

 

Could never happen to you, you say?

[axeman_g 128]

Knock yourself out. Never investigated it much before these discussions.

 

I am willing to bet it takes about as much time to complete as getting your PPPs in some towns.

 

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/nsb/tsc/tsc_redress

http://www.dhs.gov/dhs-trip

http://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/newly-signed-government-wide-watchlisting-redress-mou

http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-06-1031

http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/privacy/privacy_rpt_nofly.pdf

[millsan1 3]

From the DHS website:

 

Ninety-nine percent of individuals who apply for redress are not on the terrorist watchlist, but are misidentified as people who are.

 

Two subsets of the terrorist watchlist are the “No Fly” list and “Selectee” list:

• The “No Fly” list includes individuals who are prohibited from boarding an aircraft. You are NOT on the No Fly list if you receive a boarding pass.
  
• The “Selectee” list includes individuals who must undergo additional security screening before being permitted to board an aircraft.
  

Since the legislation does not differentiate, you can fall onto the selectee list and be done.

[notmetoo 41]

I beleive the problem with the terrorist watch list one is the criteria to be added.. They can add you for pretty much anything that doesnt fit agenda or exposes them. What they find a threat can label you. Some entitys believe 2nd amenders are domestic terrorists, along with preppers, anyone who does not agree with the current regime. This mirrors the days of the cold war and people thought of as communists, 1st amendment will get you added if it seems to oppose their agenda

 

This.

There is no solid rhyme or reason to who gets on the terrorist watch list. They deny your rights without due (or even UNdue) process. That is tyranny.

[axeman_g 128]

Just wait until SHTF and they put more of the screws on the coffin of the 2nd amendment.

 

Could never happen to you, you say?

 

What do you mean by SHTF? Total anarchy? Socialist takeover of the gov.... Zombies? Nukes? Or 10rd mag limits? Whats your definition?

 

Never... nope. I said I am pretty sure I will not ever be on the list.... by that I am implying I will not give them a reason to put me on the list. I dont work to subvert the US government, I am not a terrorist nor am I a criminal. And protesting for and working to secure my rights are not going to get me on that list.

 

If it does happen, you will be the first person I will let know.

[PDM 91]

I support training as a pre-requisite for CCW but not purchasing a gun for your home. I just don't think the government interest is compelling enough and it is subject to too much abuse. That said, if Sweeney says he's going to support it, I think it makes sense to suggest ways to make that law more rational. For example, the one organization everyone recognizes as having the greatest expertiese in firearms training and safety is the NRA. Thus, if the bill simply requires passing the NRA first steps pistol class (roughly 4 hours) or the equivalent for a long gun (which I think we all agree is not even a bare minimum of training), that might not be such a horrible thing. It certainly would be a boost to local firearms trainers.

[H.M. Murdock 0]

Axeman,

 

Again, that process does not remove you from the list, it only gives you a redress #.

 

The NJ bill does not include provisions for using a redress #, nor can it because the state cannot verify that information with the federal agencies

 

You get denied. You appeal. They don't even tell you your denial is because you're on the TWL. Nonetheless you obtain a redress # from the feds. You submit another application with your redress #. You get denied because you're STILL ON THE TWL and the fed will always return a hit for the rest of eternity. The redress # cannot help you in your appeal to the county or state. It is a de facto ban for anyone on the list.

 

While it's impossible to get off the list it's fairly easy to get added erroneously. Care to put your full name where your mouth is?

[ryan_j 0]

What do you mean by SHTF? Total anarchy? Socialist takeover of the gov.... Zombies? Nukes? Or 10rd mag limits? Whats your definition?

 

Never... nope. I said I am pretty sure I will not ever be on the list.... by that I am implying I will not give them a reason to put me on the list. I dont work to subvert the US government, I am not a terrorist nor am I a criminal. And protesting for and working to secure my rights are not going to get me on that list.

 

If it does happen, you will be the first person I will let know.

 

SHTF meaning a Katrina type event or other large scale disaster.

[millsan1 3]

My point was that 99% of people who complain about being on the list should not be in the first place.

 

Secondly, there is nothing in the legislation to allow for a successful redress.

 

The legislation is misguided and poorly written.

[DirtyDigz 1,812]

So the process to be removed from the watch list is you submit an online form at the DHS website and hope that they take the correct action. If they don't, your recourse is then...what? From what I can see, there is no appeal process.

 

Some stats I was able to find: http://people.howstuffworks.com/government-watch-list2.htm

 

From January 2005 to February 2007, 35 percent of people who complained were kept on the list, while 45 percent were either granted a lowered security level or removal from the list [source: U.S. Department of Justice]. To get through the process, you'll also need some patience because the average wait time for resolving a complaint is 67 days [source: U.S. Department of Justice].

[axeman_g 128]

67 days... about the same as PPS.

 

SHTF Katrina style. Whats the question... am I going to shoot it out with guardsmen to stay in my house. NOPE and neither will you. Will I stay as long as possible and defend what is mine from criminals. Yep if I stayed already. See having been in NO right after Katrina I would never put my family through a scene like that ... EVER. So how do I plan to survive SHTF, by running away first of course.

[H.M. Murdock 0]

I support training as a pre-requisite for CCW but not purchasing a gun for your home. I just don't think the government interest is compelling enough and it is subject to too much abuse. That said, if Sweeney says he's going to support it, I think it makes sense to suggest ways to make that law more rational. For example, the one organization everyone recognizes as having the greatest expertiese in firearms training and safety is the NRA. Thus, if the bill simply requires passing the NRA first steps pistol class (roughly 4 hours) or the equivalent for a long gun (which I think we all agree is not even a bare minimum of training), that might not be such a horrible thing. It certainly would be a boost to local firearms trainers.

 

I was wondering that myself. Hopefully there will be a selection of classes you may take to qualify. FPID applicants intent on purchasing a long gun need not subject themselves to the NRA Basic Pistol course. And vice versa for PTP applicants needlessly taking a long gun course.

 

My questions are whether the course will require live fire and how expensive and time consuming will the training be (Anthony, start submitting bids! )? Since it is not defined in the bill it will be arbitrarily redefined every time there is a mass shooting until the requirements are whittled down to the impossible and the majority of citizens are de facto banned.

 

IF this bill is to pass in Senate it should be amended to outline the specific requirements in the written law. Any hope of that, Sweeney?

[SpacemanFry 51]

Sorry axeman_g but that list is not 99.99% correct. Nothing the government does is even close to that level of correct, certainly not some list by probably the most retarded agency we have. Since you pulled a statistic out of your ass I'm going to as well and say that I bet at least 10% of the people on that list do not belong there.

 

As to getting yourself off the list, I'll give you an anecdotal evidence from a friend at work. He was on the list because his name was the same as some IRA bomber from the 70s (nevermind he didn't fit the age etc). He never knew and all the flights he took he'd be put through extra "cavity searching". One flight I guess one of the ticket agents took pity on him and told him he's on the list that's why he's always getting extra "care". He sent in the form to get himself off the list but he never heard anything back and the special treatment continued. The thing that finally got him off the list is that 1.5 years later he applied for clearance at work and through that process he was finally removed from the list.

 

So to recap, there are far more people on the list incorrectly than you think there are and there is no verifiable way to get yourself off the list. But hey, if it doesn't affect you fugg them, right? That attitude works really well until there is something you care about and nobody left to help you.

[almiz111 26]

Yah do not bash Sweeny, YET. But let's not kiss his axs either. He is a 1/2 axs 2A supporter and that is that.

[axeman_g 128]

Space... your right. See I work for DHS at FEMA and we dont get anything right. Christ we would not organize a water ballon fight. Many people here have a hard time spelling CAT... and that is with the union spotting them the C and the T. It is a wonder we can process any paperwork, move billions of dollars or relief effort, supplies and materials without it all falling off into some giant hole. The liberal and concervative media has pegged only one thing right in the last twenty years and that is that the organizations that make up DHS suck so completely the world is going to split apart at the equator because of it.

 

Sorry for your friend... it sure was a PIA at times I am sure. But I wonder.. of all the plots, bombers etc that were stopped by the list, if just by chance, would it not have been ironic if he had boarded one of the flights that were destined to come down? Or maybe you, me, your family, mine????

 

Is it perfect... nope. Is it an inconvenience, yep. Is flying a right or a privelege? We can go into a whole nother argument here.

[axeman_g 128]

FYI... I am going to be outside Jon Runyans office this afternoon at three is anyone else would like to discuss this. I will not be wearing anything tinfoil... will you?

[almiz111 26]

I think I hear Oblabla. 'If we save just one child's life all this will be worth it.'

[voyager9 3,444]

I support training as a pre-requisite for CCW but not purchasing a gun for your home. I just don't think the government interest is compelling enough and it is subject to too much abuse. That said, if Sweeney says he's going to support it, I think it makes sense to suggest ways to make that law more rational. For example, the one organization everyone recognizes as having the greatest expertiese in firearms training and safety is the NRA. Thus, if the bill simply requires passing the NRA first steps pistol class (roughly 4 hours) or the equivalent for a long gun (which I think we all agree is not even a bare minimum of training), that might not be such a horrible thing. It certainly would be a boost to local firearms trainers.

 

The bill can be found here.

On and after the effective date of P.L. , c. (C. ) (pending before the Legislature as this bill), no handgun purchase permit or firearms purchaser identification card shall be issued unless the applicant presents evidence of successfully completing a firearms safety class or course of a type approved by the superintendent or has received such training through law enforcement or military service. The course or class may be offered by the National Rifle Association, a State or local law enforcement agency, junior college, college, university, firearms training school, or any other entity approved by the superintendent. The superintendent shall prescribe the manner and form of the evidence of qualification an applicant is required to present pursuant to this paragraph.

 

So you need show proof you have completed a Firearms Safety class to get a FPID or P2P. Doesn't sound like you need to complete a class for every submission, or that it expires. It also mentions that the class can be taught by the NRA or other agencies but both the agency and the class must be approved by the "superintendent"

 

My thoughts:

What is required to approve an agency or class? This would need to be well enough defined to avoid an arbitrarily high bar.

Of particular concern would be if the class requires the attendee to bring their own firearm as the Chicken/Egg scenario creates a barrier for new owners.

 

Personally, while I'm a fan of training and I think every owner SHOULD take training I don't think it should be a requirement.. I think most people would WANT to take a class if offered at convenient times/locations and costs. The State would be better off providing discounts to training courses or vouchers (simialr to the child locks) or allowing a firearm safety class to reduce homeowners insurance (similar to a Defensive driving course). This would incentive the class and make it a benefit for everyone.

[Pythagoras 2]

Until the terror watchlist receives objective scrutiny, it makes so sense to use it as a standard. Period.

[axeman_g 128]

Sense nor logic were never part of this discussion. It's NJ.

 

Paraphrasing...

"How do you write laws in NJ well?"

 

" I think of a woman and I take away reason and accountability"

[wooly bugger 1]

The mandatory training, renewal, 10 round limit, and internet purchase bans need to go.

If I could save only two, it would be renewal and purchase ban. As much as mandatory training sucks, if they specify that something like Hunter Ed qualifies, then it's a one time hassle.

[wooly bugger 1]

So he wants to enact a state law, that says that if you get your name on a federal list, under state law you can't own a gun?

 

A list that the state can't even get you off of?

 

A list that the feds don't even have to explain why you are on?

 

Sounds like the exact opposite of "common sense"

"common sense" apparently means that politicians are unable to vote "no" on any bill that includes the word "terrorist." Same with "children." We should come up with a more comprehensive list, and maybe get a bill introduced along the lines of, "Disqualifying terrorist children from CCW" (with provision of shall issue for everyone else.)

 

Did you notice yesterday that that woman slipped a couple of times and called someone on the list a "terrorist?" Guilty until proven innocent...which you can't do, because you don't know why you're there or how you got there.

[wooly bugger 1]

Hopefully that person will use a knife or baseball bat. We don't need anymore bad press.

Apparently, yesterday, they found a guy making death threats against all the libs with two rifles, and "arsenal" of ammo, and body armor. This is getting really scary.