threads regarding cops

[RUTGERS95 890]

why does every thread involving attitudes, opinions, or stories related to police get locked?  While there were some stupid comments in the recent thread, there were also some good points made

 

That said, I do have one question that I didn't see posted.  I thought responding officers were supposed to treat the welfare of the hostage (that what the girl was at that point) paramount.  Why is an officer firing on a perp that is using a human shield?  Regardless of the outcome, I thought was a no no.

 

horrible story all around, the girl's family and the officer and his family will have to deal with this for a long time.  My heart goes out to all involved.

[LennyTheLip 0]

Because the suspect turned and pointed his weapon at the responding officer. 

[67gtonut 847]

Pretty simple really....

 

EVERY..... and I mean EVERY thread regarding what a LEO had to do in the line of duty is 2nd guessed by Monday morning quaterbacks... that most have no idea of what it is like to be in such a situation..... 

[vladtepes 1,060]

because people lack the ability to have an intelligent conversation without using it as a chance to criticize cops in general.. 

people associate a few anti gun departments... or the will of the NJ government to disarm its people... as a reflection of ALL LEO...

 

and its sickening when you weigh it against how many REAL cops are out there.... you have countless LEO out there locking up the scum of the earth every day.... 

are there bad cops? sure.. probably a bunch... but there are also "bad liberals" "bad conservatives" "bad Christians" "bad lawyers" and so on.... and I feel that cops are constantly judged by the ridiculous actions of a few...

 

 

as far as what happening?

 

you enter a dwelling.... guy has hostage... and there are multiple other innocent people in the dwelling.. 

he starts to shoot at you.. 

IMO at that point.. shoot him...because if you don't.. everyone in that room may end up hurt or dead... the guy is shooting or threatening to shoot and needs to be stopped immediately.. 

 

if the cop entered.. and was holding the girl.. and he just took a random shot with disregard to her safety.. then sure he was probably wrong...

 

it was obviously a bad situation with not a lot of good potential outcomes.. 

[bhunted 887]

You should know why. Every thread has a habit of getting overly heated. Before you know it, it's war between the sides.. Quite frankly, unless you are one of them, you should never pass judgement. The term I see is, arm chair warriors, arm chair quarterbacks. These threads always seem to get into pissing matches that never ends civilly. IMHO, nobody here will ever know the exact truths are actions of the scenario. None of us, or them for that matter, are watching via helmet cams. We have no right passing judgement or trying to analyze anything. When I first heard of the outcome, I was dismayed to find out it was friendly fire. I looked down and said, "What a shame". This is where I ended the story. I have no need to analyze or critique this news as it is over and will serve nothing. Except, exhibit why these threads get shut down. Lessons have not been learned, but what I derive from the lock downs is there are no winners or losers. Just people pissed on both sides with elevated blood pressure spikes, (in which I, myself, do not need)...

 

Alas, these threads will continue to appear due to stubbornness and maybe a big touch of ignorance. In a long run, this is a gun forum. A forum where I come to learn more about guns. Shoving this crap in my face just pisses me off.

 

Ask yourself a question. We may have a 100 people here a day posting or just reading. Why isn't the majority of it discussing saving our rights or just about guns?

You can go on the M14 Forums lets say, where there are literally 1000s on at the same time, 5 new pages of posts every few hours and almost all the chatter is only about a few guns and very little bs? Maybe we need to step back and learn from them.

 

 

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[RUTGERS95 890]

Because the suspect turned and pointed his weapon at the responding officer. 

nope.....

 

that is not what I have been told by family.  There are rules to gun use and firing at perp holding a hostage as a human shield is not as simple as what you say.  I'm not chastising the cop, split second decision, reaction takes over etc. but it's not nearly as simple as what you posted.

 

 

yes I get all the back and forth and ridiculous comments but that went both sides I saw.  It's a shame we can't discuss these things like adults.

[RUTGERS95 890]

You should know why. Every thread has a habit of getting overly heated. Before you know it, it's war between the sides.. Quite frankly, unless you are one of them, you should never pass judgement. The term I see is, arm chair warriors, arm chair quarterbacks. These threads always seem to get into pissing matches that never ends civilly. IMHO, nobody here will ever know the exact truths are actions of the scenario. None of us, or them for that matter, are watching via helmet cams. We have no right passing judgement or trying to analyze anything. When I first heard of the outcome, I was dismayed to find out it was friendly fire. I looked down and said, "What a shame". This is where I ended the story. I have no need to analyze or critique this news as it is over and will serve nothing. Except, exhibit why these threads get shut down. Lessons have not been learned, but what I derive from the lock downs is there are no winners or losers. Just people pissed on both sides with elevated blood pressure spikes, (in which I, myself, do not need)...

 

Alas, these threads will continue to appear due to stubbornness and maybe a big touch of ignorance. In a long run, this is a gun forum. A forum where I come to learn more about guns. Shoving this crap in my face just pisses me off.

 

Ask yourself a question. We may have a 100 people here a day posting or just reading. Why isn't the majority of it discussing saving our rights or just about guns?

You can go on the M14 Forums lets say, where there are literally 1000s on at the same time, 5 new pages of posts every few hours and almost all the chatter is only about a few guns and very little bs? Maybe we need to step back and learn from them.

 

 

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I hear you, I actually clicked that link thinking I'd see more discussion on why people should have guns in their home. 

 

Just an awful story for all involved.  I feel for everyone  but the perp and his family

[RUTGERS95 890]

because people lack the ability to have an intelligent conversation without using it as a chance to criticize cops in general.. 

people associate a few anti gun departments... or the will of the NJ government to disarm its people... as a reflection of ALL LEO...

 

and its sickening when you weigh it against how many REAL cops are out there.... you have countless LEO out there locking up the scum of the earth every day.... 

are there bad cops? sure.. probably a bunch... but there are also "bad liberals" "bad conservatives" "bad Christians" "bad lawyers" and so on.... and I feel that cops are constantly judged by the ridiculous actions of a few...

 

 

as far as what happening?

 

you enter a dwelling.... guy has hostage... and there are multiple other innocent people in the dwelling.. 

he starts to shoot at you.. 

IMO at that point.. shoot him...because if you don't.. everyone in that room may end up hurt or dead... the guy is shooting or threatening to shoot and needs to be stopped immediately.. 

 

if the cop entered.. and was holding the girl.. and he just took a random shot with disregard to her safety.. then sure he was probably wrong...

 

it was obviously a bad situation with not a lot of good potential outcomes.. 

 

 

I agree about the judging, it's too much and everyone makes mistakes.  I have different views on this are more critical of the belief in always backing up an officer right or wrong (blue wall thing) and think that if police policed themselves more, the public would have different views on mistakes.

 

mistakes will happen, that is life.  we ask human being to react to the book in situations that don't account for human variables that can't be measured.  very very hard for cops in that situation.

[vladtepes 1,060]

I think what happens is human nature...

 

 

every (and I mean EVERY) time something happens... here comes the brigade of gun owners (non leo) to question... comment.. and most importantly criticize the actions of leo....

so they become conditioned to stand together and defend each other...

 

because of retarded comments like this "yeah only the cops should have guns"... when that comment is 4 posts into a thread it is obvious that it is not a civil discussion....

 

want to talk about what happened? try to understand it? and discuss it?

then you have to have a high level of maturity and appreciate that these people do this every day for a job... and making stupid digs like that... not going to make the thread go well.. 

[RUTGERS95 890]

agree.....

 

 

back to the question I posed.  what exactly is the protocol in LI for this?

[jrfly3006 42]

There is no protocol.. Its called when in a split second you encounter a perp holding a hostage who then points the gun at you.. What do you do.. Throw hands up and become a hostage also?..,,take the perps bullet to your head?.. Just as in active shooter scenarios the contact teams priority is to neutralize the shooter.. Bypassing injured parties because at that time ending the threat is the top priority..some people watch too many movies

[Tactical Turtle 11]

What did i miss?

[brocglock23 4]

What did i miss?

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php/topic/56009-nyc-responding-officer-kills-victim-too/

^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^

[Sig226GuyNJ 128]

I find it ironic that a website based on 2nd amendment rights, suppresses 1st amendment rights, if someone gets "oveheated" or "critical" or is "Monday night quarterbacking"....

[gunguy1960 2]

Here is a great idea- when they (non leo) say something that just makes you feel like it could be baiting you into a heated discussion, just dont take the bait, be the better person, rise above it, stay calm and let the crowd vent and they will go away rather quickly if they dont get any fuel thrown on their fire. I know its a crazy idea, but if it keeps your blood pressure in check it cant be all bad!

[njJoniGuy 2,133]

I find it ironic that a website based on 2nd amendment rights, suppresses 1st amendment rights, if someone gets "oveheated" or "critical" or is "Monday night quarterbacking"....

+ infinity and beyond

[bhunted 887]

This forum is based on rights? Or to the education of weapons and their associated hobbies? I didn't join for politics, that's for sure, nor did I join to get into pissing matches with people I may not know. But 1st amendment rights have nothing to do with it. But more like peaceful protest which is not how it ends here.

 

There is no education in trying to analyze something we have no business analyzing.

That's like saying, "I'm not a doctor, but I play one on TV"... If you've been around long enough, you'd know the outcome of these type threads. If you feel the need to expel anger, go elsewhere. But not here against each other.

 

Finally, your rights sort of end when you walk into my home. My rules outweigh all rights and if you do not like it, you can just leave. Consider this the owner of the forum's home. You enter into it and respect it's rules. If he says no feet on the coffee table, it's his rules. In your house, your table, your rights. If he says not fighting in his home, so the rule stands. People don't seem to understand this concept.

 

There is no reason for anyone to come in here and drive wedges between people. Uncivil arguments, flaming, etc. is one of those wedges.

 

 

 

I find it ironic that a website based on 2nd amendment rights, suppresses 1st amendment rights, if someone gets "oveheated" or "critical" or is "Monday night quarterbacking"....

 

 

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[bhunted 887]

If anything, why not just ask them based on their experience and take their answers from what they have learned and continue learning? Why must these threads always end up fighting LEs? Who the hell are any of us to think we know better?

They should be helping educate non-leo... Not the other way around.

Respect them and their field as you'd want to be respected for any expertise you'd have. This is not a hard concept folks!

 

Here is a great idea- when they (non leo) say something that just makes you feel like it could be baiting you into a heated discussion, just dont take the bait, be the better person, rise above it, stay calm and let the crowd vent and they will go away rather quickly if they dont get any fuel thrown on their fire. I know its a crazy idea, but if it keeps your blood pressure in check it cant be all bad!

 

Sent from John's iPad 2 via Tapatalk HD

Typos courtesy Apple...

[Sig226GuyNJ 128]

This forum is based on rights? Or to the education of weapons and their associated hobbies? I didn't join for politics, that's for sure, nor did I join to get into pissing matches with people I may not know. But 1st amendment rights have nothing to do with it. But more like peaceful protest which is not how it ends here.

 

There is no education in trying to analyze something we have no business analyzing.

That's like saying, "I'm not a doctor, but I play one on TV"... If you've been around long enough, you'd know the outcome of these type threads. If you feel the need to expel anger, go elsewhere. But not here against each other.

 

Finally, your rights sort of end when you walk into my home. My rules outweigh all rights and if you do not like it, you can just leave. Consider this the owner of the forum's home. You enter into it and respect it's rules. If he says no feet on the coffee table, it's his rules. In your house, your table, your rights. If he says not fighting in his home, so the rule stands. People don't seem to understand this concept.

 

There is no reason for anyone to come in here and drive wedges between people. Uncivil arguments, flaming, etc. is one of those wedges.

 

 

 

 

 

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Since when do people here get so personally offended? That's part of the problem in America today. People take things personally, therefore, we must be PC. You'd rather have "peaceful protest" instead of letting people just speak their minds. That sounds like the liberal way to me. BTW, I did not bash any cops on this forum. I actually agree that useless points are pointless, or "Monday night quarterbacking" is ignorant. However, I disagree more with censoring people. Whether it be a forum or not, it's censorship. It's like the NJ Senator who kicked out James Kaleda b/c they didn't like what he was saying, and that happens alot here as well in the form of thread locks or bans.

[Combat Auto 174]

I think it is strange that a "gun-forum" dosn't "support" active interaction about police "issues"...I for one, would appreciate learning from police, but at the same time, questioning their policies and practices should be encouraged. Afterall, they are public (servants)...As long as it is done respectively - the forum should support it...Police are a govenment agancy - and any government agancy should be question, analysied, have open interactive dialog (in a respectful maner), over and over again...Of course, any police person on the forum can choose or not choose to be part of the discussion.

[bhunted 887]

I agree.... They shouldn't.... But that's how it ends up. I hate being PC and if you knew me personally, I am no way PC... But I can control myself for the most part in a public forum. Let's face it. The internet is full of alter egos. Most people would not act this way face to face with each other.

 

Since when do people here get so personally offended? That's part of the problem in America today. People take things personally, therefore, we must be PC. You'd rather have "peaceful protest" instead of letting people just speak their minds. That sounds like the liberal way to me. BTW, I did not bash any cops on this forum. I actually agree that useless points are pointless, or "Monday night quarterbacking" is ignorant. However, I disagree more with censoring people. Whether it be a forum or not, it's censorship. It's like the NJ Senator who kicked out James Kaleda b/c they didn't like what he was saying, and that happens alot here as well in the form of thread locks or bans.

 

 

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[Sig226GuyNJ 128]

I agree.... They shouldn't.... But that's how it ends up. I hate being PC and if you knew me personally, I am no way PC... But I can control myself for the most part in a public forum. Let's face it. The internet is full of alter egos. Most people would not act this way face to face with each other.

 

 

 

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You're right. Most people hide behind a keyboard. However, it doesn't make it right that they are censored. BTW, I'm way more an a$$hole in real life.

[bhunted 887]

That falls under 'learning'.... I agree. But questioning their policies and arguing about hem gets you no where. Policy is not written by them. Questioning policy should be brought to their superiors in a live public forum face to face, not here.

The Pussification of America is the blame for that. People just won't do it or they refuse to hear it because they are right and no other will be right in their eyes.

 

I think it is strange that a "gun-forum" dosn't "support" active interaction about police "issues"...I for one, would appreciate learning from police, but at the same time, questioning their policies and practices should be encouraged. Afterall, they are public (servants)...As long as it is done respectively - the forum should support it...Police are a govenment agancy - and any government agancy should be question, analysied, have open interactive dialog (in a respectful maner), over and over again...Of course, any police person on the forum can choose or not choose to be part of the discussion.

 

 

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Typos courtesy Apple...

[bhunted 887]

Me too.... I say to people, "You'll either love me or hate me...there is no middle ground"... and I'm fine with it.

 

 

 

I agree.... They shouldn't.... But that's how it ends up. I hate being PC and if you knew me personally, I am no way PC... But I can control myself for the most part in a public forum. Let's face it. The internet is full of alter egos. Most people would not act this way face to face with each other.

 

 

 

 

Sent from John's iPad 2 via Tapatalk HD

 

Typos courtesy Apple...

 

 

You're right. Most people hide behind a keyboard. However, it doesn't make it right that they are censored. BTW, I'm way more an a$$hole in real life.

 

Sent from John's iPad 2 via Tapatalk HD

Typos courtesy Apple...

[ryan_j 0]

I think that attacking the cops for their response in that situation was not the right thing to do. The best thing would have been for the student to be armed and trained to defend against a home invasion. But a liberal college in a liberal state, good luck.

 

We shouldn't be bashing the cops unless they truly deserve it. We should aim our anger and criticism at politicians who make us depend on the police to save us.

[Combat Auto 174]

BTW, Every trooper, cop, etc., needs to ask themselves, (if) push came to shove - would you follow ethically unlawful orders - or refuse based on principles...OK, this sargent did his job reasonably (in above video), but one could argue that he followed an unlawful order (where was Kaleda out of order?)...(If) the big push comes (some day) for confiscation, it would come down to every cop, atf agent, and possibly military person, who will decide the outcome...So many Sherif's Out West have spoke out that they will not follow such an (illegal) order...It would be great to hear the views of police, etc. in our comunity along these lines...The video is a reminder of this issue - which should be discussed on the NJGF.

[vladtepes 1,060]

Apparently people don't understand... Let me try one more time...

 

You disagree with me and how I do something?

No problem...

 

Ask me about it...

 

The problem becomes when it is not asking and discussing and it is instead bashing....

 

If you don't understand the simplicity of that... Then you have some growing to do...

 

Take the cop that removed James... That officer in that moment in time was just doing his job... Not following orders would have potentially cost him everything... So he does as he is instructed... Ever had to so anything in your life ever you didn't agree with? Does that mean that cop is an evil freedom hating agent of the state? Nope... Maybe he is... Maybe he isn't... But you can't put people under a microscope and critizice every tiny action and broadly apply that generalization to EVERYONE in that group...

[vladtepes 1,060]

BTW, Every trooper, cop, etc., needs to ask themselves, (if) push came to shove - would you follow ethically unlawful orders - or refuse based on principles...OK, this sargent did his job reasonably (in above video), but one could argue that he followed an unlawful order (where was Kaleda out of order?)...(If) the big push comes (some day) for confiscation, it would come down to every cop, atf agent, and possibly military person, who will decide the outcome...So many Sherif's Out West have spoke out that they will not follow such an (illegal) order...It would be great to hear the views of police, etc. in our comunity along these lines...The video is a reminder of this issue - which should be discussed on the NJGF.

In fairness to lower level officers operating in a department... Publicly stating such a stance could cause huge issues...

 

The irony is if you took the time to actually get to know them... You would already know the answer..

 

I know a couple Leo that would follow orders to a fault...

 

But most I know... Would NOT participate in that...

 

The reality is this... I say all te time I don't rely on the police to protect me... As I sit in the mall with a gun on my hip....

 

I also don't rely on the police to preserve my freedoms... What's right is right... And no one will change that... So what one cop will or won't so if it comes to that... Is moot to me..

[ryan_j 0]

Vlad, while I am inclined to agree with you, a lot of very bad things in history were done in the name of "I'm just following orders" or "I'm just doing my job" or "I'm doing this to feed my family."

 

So I wouldn't really use that as a moral compass. 

 

We have a lot of prominent LEOs, particularly Sheriffs, coming out and saying they will not enforce new state and Federal gun laws. Even in NY some have come out against the SAFE act.

 

In NJ we have been hearing...crickets. 

 

I think that by itself is disturbing. This implies that any new laws will be enforced, and the excuses I mentioned above will be used. 

 

Some people wonder what will happen if new draconian laws are passed. I am not. I will tell you what will happen. The police will enforce them and say "we are just doing our jobs" or "I'm just following orders, don't blame me" or "You want my family to starve?"

[Combat Auto 174]

Vlad, while I am inclined to agree with you, a lot of very bad things in history were done in the name of "I'm just following orders" or "I'm just doing my job" or "I'm doing this to feed my family."

 

So I wouldn't really use that as a moral compass. 

 

We have a lot of prominent LEOs, particularly Sheriffs, coming out and saying they will not enforce new state and Federal gun laws. Even in NY some have come out against the SAFE act.

 

In NJ we have been hearing...crickets. 

 

I think that by itself is disturbing. This implies that any new laws will be enforced, and the excuses I mentioned above will be used. 

 

Some people wonder what will happen if new draconian laws are passed. I am not. I will tell you what will happen. The police will enforce them and say "we are just doing our jobs" or "I'm just following orders, don't blame me" or "You want my family to starve?"

Great post---crickets is what I hear also.