How well should you know someone before giving them a reference

[rich r 0]

We've lived in this township for 30 years, raised a family, paid the mortgage off, I pay my taxes regularly to the township. Should I put down the tax collector as a reference? The question about referrals seems ridiculous since most everyone in NJ is anti-gun. I go to very old friends whom I've known for years,,one is anti-gun, the other is pro-gun, but I get my 'Good' referrals from both of them. What happens if they die? Who will vouch for me??? I don't go to church, temple, or hang-out in bars, and I quit the Masons many years ago. 

If you don't commit crimes, if you pay your taxes, if you pass all the gun required 'tests' --- why do you need a referral? Ridiculous beyond belief. 

[raz-0 1,259]

Wow, people blow this way out of proportion. Want a good test? Would you take them to the range? Yes, then why not sign the letter.

 

Every one I have signed has said the same thing: I know of no reason X should not own firearms.

[greatgroverino 0]

I don't see why references become the arbiter of the 2nd Amendment. Most of us are against the intrusion of government in this realm, so don't see any difference why you wouldn't be a reference for someone. You'd therefore be judge and jury against someone else's right, not privilege, of owning a gun. And in this state, the more people we can attract, the better. Sure if you hang with criminals (which I'm sure none of us do...) that might be different...but again that's why they have background checks. That's enough in my book.

[tony357 386]

All my references have known me all my life, we grew up together raced together and also worked together in most instances i think we all pick people like this because we know each other just human nature..

 

 If you just recently met someone and were asked to be a reference you would be skeptical about participating..

 

And on another note i use to use one of my best friends who happened to be a local police officer, when the new detective took over he would no longer accept police officers as a reference.. 

[Walt of Destiny 412]

Well, all these forms and requirements are hurdles put in place by "know nothings" for the sake of nothing. References don't prove a thing. Even background checks don't say anything about future behavior. Not even a full psych profile will do that. But we engage in the activity because it is required of us by our betters to exercise this particular right.

 

Cars kill way more than guns(and the next 2 causes combined) yet at 17 you get a cursory "exam" and road test and off you go. For life. And that's a privilege not a right. I know way more people that I wouldn't give reference for getting or renewing a drivers license than getting an fid hands down. But I digress.

 

Walt

[NJSigfan 218]

I have numerous colleagues, many acquaintances and few friends......I give personal references to friends only.

Well said.

 

I have 3 friends that I use as references. Hoping to grow that with new friends from the forum, but for now I just use those three. They have been friends for the last 15 yrs

[Arbelest 29]

 

 

And on another note i use to use one of my best friends who happened to be a local police officer, when the new detective took over he would no longer accept police officers as a reference.. 

 

That idea seams like nonsense.  If a fellow officer would write a reference for you, that should make the detective's job easier right?

[JSF01 13]

Simply being an acquaintance for a few months is good enough for me to be their reference, assuming of course I believe they are of good character. I don't really see a reason not too. I personally think references are stupid because is any one going to go to some one that would not say they are a good person. Even if a person was completely evil he will find some one to say that he is good.

[MedicYeti 96]

I will give a reference to a person whom I consider a friend. This is a person who I talk to on a personal basis, who I trust to talk to about my personal life. I know about their family, I know about their career and I know a little about their personal habits. This is someone who is more then a work aquanitance or a face book friend. I like to have been shooting with them as well.

All that being said; one person can not truely know another person and I have learned this the hard way. After knowing him all his life, I learned my little brother is a prdophile and severed all ties with him. I would have never guessed.

So I want to know a person as well as I can before giving a reference for anything.

[NJKen 23]

If I dont trust the person, I wont give a reference.  You will know its OK to give someone a reference when you just say "OK, Ill do it" and you dont start to doubt it after 10 minutes. 

I actually have given someone a negative reference.  I pleaded with this individual not to go through with his FID and Permits.  I felt that he was a threat to himself and his immediate family.  After he was denied (and really pissed at me) he went on to have a few knock down drag out incidents of road rage and a couple of domestic situations.  I feel in my soul that a  if this individual had succeeded in purchasing a pistol something bad would have happened by now. 

Ken

[Smokin .50 1,907]

I will gladly give you a FID reference if I have taken you to a range and you did well safety-wise.  Put another way:  If I trust you enough that I can leave you BEHIND the firing line (with several guns layin'-out on a table w/ ammo, loaded mags, etc.) while I go down-range to change a target and you don't do anything STUPID like handle a gun while the muzzle is pointed at my back, you're 90% THERE, lol!  The other 10% is negotiated with free food & drink since the range trip was on me, lol!  And I like to EAT!

 

Don't overthink this.  In Free America all it takes is a DL with your photo on it as proof of residency......

[Duppie 73]

I will gladly give you a FID reference if I have taken you to a range and you did well safety-wise.  Put another way:  If I trust you enough that I can leave you BEHIND the firing line (with several guns layin'-out on a table w/ ammo, loaded mags, etc.) while I go down-range to change a target and you don't do anything STUPID like handle a gun while the muzzle is pointed at my back, you're 90% THERE, lol!  The other 10% is negotiated with free food & drink since the range trip was on me, lol!  And I like to EAT!

 

Don't overthink this.  In Free America all it takes is a DL with your photo on it as proof of residency......

Damn Rosey...didn't know you were testing me...

[DSD1026 48]

I've never been asked to be a reference.. Probably because I don't have many friends that would ever really consider getting a fid or a gun.. (At least before I joined here) For my references, I asked 2 people that I have known for the past 10+ years.. If I were asked, it would have to be someone I think is personally responsible enough to own a firearm..

[Blacksmythe 71]

The idea of needing a reference is obsurd. It means nothing. All of the hoops we jump through mean nothing. Its a waste of time. Something happens then what? Nothing that's what. I can count on one hand the people I can count on. The same hand writes and receives references.

[Old Dog 19]

Unless I know a person for a long time and not just know but am very familiar with their lives, family, etc., I will not give them a reference. This may seem harsh but here is why. When I moved to Florida I started playing billiards again and was invited to join 3 men who needed a fourth to play partners. We had fun and me and my new partner won free drinks from the losers. We continued to play for a little over a year, going out to dinner together and other wise socialize with our wives.

 

Of course I talked about guns and found out that my new friend did not own any. I hate to see someone with no gun and was going to offer him one of my surplus guns for a very low cost. When I mentioned this to one of the other guys in our circle of friends I was informed that he was a registered sex offender. Sure enough when I looked him up, there he was. At that moment I realized that if I offered the gun and he accepted, I would have sold it to him. To sell privately here the only restriction is that you cannot knowingly sell to a minor or felon but you do not have to do any checking at all. In fact you do not even need to know the buyers name or address. Fuel for universal background check proponents.

 

Those of us who are more concerned about putting guns into the wrong hands, only sell those with a ccw license. At least you get to see it, know the person had a background check and you can copy the number, address and name down. However, they are good for 7 years from date of issue and you have no idea if it has been revoked since then. The person could have obtained it one day and been convicted the next and be ineligible to buy a gun and still have his card.

 

Since I am constantly changing out old guns for new ones and like to sleep at night, I just trade in my guns now for the new ones. I take a big loss by doing it this way but at least I know I am not selling it to someone who should not have one. Plus I do not have to deal with people who buy guns too big for them and then complain about the recoil, limp wristing induced jams, "crooked" sights that make them shoot low left all the time, etc.. The last gun I gave a refund on ended up coming back with a nice big scratch on its side. Every gun I sell is 100% and looks like new. Most never had more than 100 rounds through them and I spend an hour per gun to clean them so that there is not one speck of dirt in them. I use dental picks and those lead/carbon remover cloths to make sure that even my revolvers do not have that ring around the front of  the cylinder you often see.

 

So these days I do not recommend anyone for anything unless I have absolute knowledge about what I am recommending the person for.

[Combat Auto 174]

How well should you know someone before standing as a reference on their FID or P2P application?

 

The law says "presently acquainted."

 

To what degree of "acquainted" do YOU personally take that to mean?

 

Should you have been to the applicants home, to determine if they are crazy cat person?

 

Should you have had a meal with them, to determine if they are an alcoholic?

 

Should you have gone to a concert with them, or rave, to see if they use drugs?

 

I guess the bottom line is how well do any of us really know the people we give reference for, and how well do the people you ask to be your reference, really know you?

 

I'm very interested in how this discussion evolves.

Not so much how "long" you know someone, it is more how "well" you know some one - there is a big difference...Also, depends what the reference is for...

[deerpark 83]

What do you consider successful?

 

Your hand not getting stuck. 

[kman 56]

Perhaps people seeking references should so declare here so they can get together and shoot a bit and then be each others mutual reference.

 

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

 

 

[matty 810]

I require nudity before giving a reference.

[Arbelest 29]

I require nudity before giving a reference.

 

Want to really know the person right?

[Smokin .50 1,907]

Damn Rosey...didn't know you were testing me...

 

It wasn't a test Duppie, lol, but let's do it again soon!  I still have some charcoal!        

[Duppie 73]

It wasn't a test Duppie, lol, but let's do it again soon!  I still have some charcoal!        

...and I have a bottle of fresh Harissa and a new recipe for Moroccan spiced grilled beef with Naan bread...so I'm ready.

[Kingsoverqueens 10]

Also, depends what the reference is for...

FID and P2P.

 

So, here is the full story, but first thanks to all who replied. 

 

I offered to be a reference for my daily UPS driver here at work.  I've "known" the guy since 2005, and during that time I've always found him to be polite, outgoing, engaging, professional, and a general all around nice guy.  He also works for UPS, thus, gainfully employed and as a driver with a CDL, subject to scrutiny.  His brother is also a cop in my town.

 

In a recent conversation about our weekend activities the subject of shooting came up, and he expressed an interest.  He'd been to Shore Shot and rented and now wanted to buy, but, and these are his words....I don't know anyone "respectable" to use as a reference.  So I offered.

 

The detective called on Friday to schedule an interview and during the brief conversation he learned how I was "acquainted" with the applicant, and became rather put off, telling me I should know someone socially before being their reference.  With this we conducted most of the interview over the phone and while not acrimonious, I had to defend my decision.  He agreed to swing by my house later in the afternoon so I could sign the interview form but in the meantime he had me second guessing my decision, which is why I posted this thread.

 

It all worked out in the end.  Since we had spoken over the phone he met the applicant and told me flat out that I had made the right decision and that the applicant was a "good guy."  I actually struck up a conversation with him about his Beretta, and wound up inviting him and his kids to the range and teach them how to shoot. lol

[Smokin .50 1,907]

I've never heard of a Detective making "rounds" to get a piece of FID paperwork signed, let alone a reference form.  My town lets you take them with you and have your references mail them back to HQ; a simple formality at best.  I'm almost willing to say as soon as the Detective found-out this guy's brother was OTJ, it was almost a rubber stamp IF nuthin' popped-out of the computer look-up....

 

The UPS driver knows plenty of respectable folks.  Maybe he's not comfortable asking some of these other folks about guns, permits, etc.  Most Newbies aren't sure about how to ask in the first place.  Almost as bad as asking a girl out on a first date, lol!  Generally new shooters want to find someone who will fill-out the paperwork promptly and answer the famous questions (on the form) in a manner reflecting their good character.  Last time I filled one of these out I did it for one of our Eagle Scouts who Eagled the same time as my Son did.  I wrote on his paper that he was a good rifleman all through Boy Scouts, a natural with the AR, Garand and others and was trained by ME!  Then I signed it as a NRA Certified Instructor and RSO.  Shortly thereafter he received his permit(s).  As to whether or not my additional comments did anything to speed things up, I'm not aware, but I'd like to think that they might have helped some..........

 

Dave

[leahcim 680]

I don't see why references become the arbiter of the 2nd Amendment. Most of us are against the intrusion of government in this realm, so don't see any difference why you wouldn't be a reference for someone. You'd therefore be judge and jury against someone else's right, not privilege, of owning a gun. And in this state, the more people we can attract, the better. Sure if you hang with criminals (which I'm sure none of us do...) that might be different...but again that's why they have background checks. That's enough in my book.

^^This 

Almost everyone on this forum complains about the intrusive govt requirements to buy and own firearms, but when you are asked to participate in the process you would deny the RIGHT to someone because they are merely an acquaitance?  I mean isn't that what the referral says--presently acquainted?   Aquaintance is not a very high standard (brought into social contact; made familiar: people acquainted through mutual friends. Dictionary.com).  I think I would pretty much give a reference to anyone I know, and answer honestly.  Mostly because I do not believe I have the right to judge someone else's constitutional right.  If they are precluded due to a bright-line (e.g. a felon), then our NJ overlords should figure that out. 

Imagine if they did this before you could speak in public, or write a letter to the editor, op-ed, or publish a blog.

 

I also will typically answer with "I do not know" to almost every question.  The PD asks: "Does this person have a criminal record?" well I would think the govt agency posing the question should know that better than I could.

 

Then they ask "What kind of person is he?"  what the hell does that even mean?  I usually just put "U.S. Citizen," but if I don't know that for sure, I will put "human"

 

So I give the reference without really vouching for anything in particular, mostly because I don't think it is my place to do so.  So far no one has had any problem with their permits.

Now, if I did know the person was crazy, or a criminal, or that they planned to obtain the permit for criminal use, I would definitely put that down--I would not be dishonest.  After all, the person is voluntarilly submits to the process.  So far I have not been approached by such people for references.

[leahcim 680]

 

The detective called on Friday to schedule an interview and during the brief conversation he learned how I was "acquainted" with the applicant, and became rather put off, telling me I should know someone socially before being their reference. 

 See this is the problem I would have with the detective.  If they want referrals who know the referrent better than mere acquaintance, thene the form should state that--a person you know socially, a lifelong friend, a person you would trust with your kids, whatever.  The form merely says "presently acquainted," and I would say that standard was met with the UPS driver.

 

Great topic, and thanks for the background!

[Kingsoverqueens 10]

I've never heard of a Detective making "rounds" to get a piece of FID paperwork signed, let alone a reference form.

 

Dave

The Detective from this town wanted to conduct the entire interview face to face, so it would seem they take it seriously. 

 

My town only mails out a form.