Another Victim of Senseless NJ Laws

[ryan_j 0]

In Sussex County, I can imagine you not being summoned for quite some time. Here in Warren County, we are probably a bit more active as we have a bigger stretch of I-80 as well as I-78 and, thus, more potential for "highway drug deal/stops/busts."

 

We have Route 15 which is heavily patrolled and also a huge "drug corridor" as well. 

[maintenanceguy 510]

I grew up in Cumberland County.  Moved to Middlesex at 18 and lived there for almost 15 years and got jury notices from Cumberland for the first 10 years.  Always returned them with a note that I didn't live in that county any more.

 

Moved back to Cumberland County and received jury notices from Middlesex county for the first 10 years I was here.

 

They apparently did get their records straightened out and I served for the first time a couple of years ago. It was a murder trial and I tried to get off but wasn't able to.  I'm glad I was selected.  The 12 people I served with were thoughtful, took the job very seriously, did an excellent job of policing each other when topics came up that we weren't supposed to discuss before deliberations, and worked together well during deliberations to hear everyone's opinions and concerns and work their way through them in a systematic way until everyone's concerns were addressed.   It was a rewarding experience and renewed my faith that groups of people from different backgrounds, with different political views, different everything - can work together.   If called again, I will gladly serve.

[HBecwithFn7 296]

I grew up in Cumberland County.  Moved to Middlesex at 18 and lived there for almost 15 years and got jury notices from Cumberland for the first 10 years.  Always returned them with a note that I didn't live in that county any more.

 

Moved back to Cumberland County and received jury notices from Middlesex county for the first 10 years I was here.

 

They apparently did get their records straightened out and I served for the first time a couple of years ago. It was a murder trial and I tried to get off but wasn't able to.  I'm glad I was selected.  The 12 people I served with were thoughtful, took the job very seriously, did an excellent job of policing each other when topics came up that we weren't supposed to discuss before deliberations, and worked together well during deliberations to hear everyone's opinions and concerns and work their way through them in a systematic way until everyone's concerns were addressed.   It was a rewarding experience and renewed my faith that groups of people from different backgrounds, with different political views, different everything - can work together.   If called again, I will gladly serve.

 

So did you "throw the book at 'em or what?"  :D

 

Similar issue as I maintain a mailing address (PO Box) in a different county. In this particular county, the "questionaire" = "summons."  I assume it was sent automatically to "the PO box" itself, as both DL and voter reg would reflect my physical county.  But I could always check "not a county resident." They stopped after a while. I guess they figured it out and took me off the list.

[HBecwithFn7 296]

We have Route 15 which is heavily patrolled and also a huge "drug corridor" as well. 

 

You also have Rt. 23, and both 15 & 23 lead to I-84 and the routes through NY State (which lead to/from Canada). Perhaps US-209 in PA also contributes.

[Princetonian58 53]

Nappen has done a great job of raising public awareness of this woman's plight and developing sympathy for her. However, in my view, her best chance for a favorable disposition is for media to dog the AC Prosecutor to go on camera and explain his objection to PTI. He needs to be pushed out of his comfort zone and newspaper stories that don't put him on defense won't cut I.

[HBecwithFn7 296]

Nappen has done a great job of raising public awareness of this woman's plight and developing sympathy for her. However, in my view, her best chance for a favorable disposition is for media to dog the AC Prosecutor to go on camera and explain his objection to PTI. He needs to be pushed out of his comfort zone and newspaper stories that don't put him on defense won't cut I.

 

And, for the same reasons, I don't think the MSM would push him out of his comfort zone or put him on the defensive. Remember, they favor his position. They'll spin it  well towards his side.  It would have to be Fox or NRA news or something like that.  And, if he holds up really well on TV, it could actually strengthen his position and work against ours.  Very very risky. Does anyone have clips of him on TV prior to this for assessment? If he's not good on TV, then maybe it is worth a shot.

[Princetonian58 53]

I understand your point. However, the Chasing NJ crew might be a good start. Not to mention the Philly TV which may be less inclined to show deference.

 

Most of these prosecutors are solid at a news conference they call to announce charges but less so if confronted without a prepared statement when they don't select the time or place. Moreover, she has nothing to lose. A conviction absent nullification is a certainty.

[HBecwithFn7 296]

I understand your point. However, the Chasing NJ crew might be a good start. Not to mention the Philly TV which may be less inclined to show deference.

 

Most of these prosecutors are solid at a news conference they call to announce charges but less so if confronted without a prepared statement when they don't select the time or place. Moreover, she has nothing to lose. A conviction absent nullification is a certainty.

 

I'm all for anything that will help her, and us. Chasing NJ probably would be the best start for this kind of effort.  I just don't know if any pressure we could bring ot bear on the prosecutor will sway him. Not  yet, apparently.

[maintenanceguy 510]

So did you "throw the book at 'em or what?"  :D

 

 

Yeah, we did.  Going into deliberations, I was one of three that was on the fence, everyone else said "guilty" as soon as we sat down to deliberate.   But as we went through the evidence, and discussed each of our concerns including some of the things that didn't' seem to fit well, some of the screw ups by the investigators (nothing as complicated as a murder investigation could ever be done without a few mistakes made), And a particularly bad expert witness that was key to the case, I became convinced as did the others.   We ended up returning a verdict of guilty and I'm confident we did the right thing.

[Shawnmoore81 623]

Hopefully the jury makes a stand for this woman. Unconstitutional laws should never stand. Putting this woman in jail and ripping a family apart that's already been ripped apart once for a crime with no victim is absolutely pointless

[ryan_j 0]

Hopefully the jury makes a stand for this woman. Unconstitutional laws should never stand. Putting this woman in jail and ripping a family apart that's already been ripped apart once for a crime with no victim is absolutely pointless

 

They will go to great lengths to select the "right" jury. 

[Shawnmoore81 623]

Probably fly in the sandy hookers and miller. Bloomberg is probably buying em all beach houses right now

[PeteF 1,044]

Nappen has done a great job of raising public awareness of this woman's plight and developing sympathy for her. However, in my view, her best chance for a favorable disposition is for media to dog the AC Prosecutor to go on camera and explain his objection to PTI. He needs to be pushed out of his comfort zone and newspaper stories that don't put him on defense won't cut I.

Out of his comfort zone shouldn't be to hard. Ray Rice beats woman unconsious = PTI, Working mom injures no one= 3-5 years.

Try talking your way out of that logic.

[CMJeepster 2,778]

ARTICLE:  "Will there be justice for Shaneen Allen in New Jersey?"  http://www.examiner.com/article/will-there-be-justice-for-shaneen-allen-new-jersey

 

Features quotes from all the big NJ players;  Evan Nappen, Frank Jack Fiamingo, Bryan Miller...

[CMJeepster 2,778]

Trial is scheduled for October 6th:  http://nypost.com/2014/08/13/a-mother-a-gun-and-jersey-injustice/

[AlDente67 563]

For those who are saying she "should have known better" I think you are giving people too much credit.  Especially someone, as it appears to be with this young lady, who doesn't appear to be very educated about firearms.

 

From what little we know about her/this case:

 

1.  She was robbed TWICE before SOME BODY ELSE told her to get a gun and apply for Penn conceal carry permit.

 

2.  Penn doesn't require any class instruction to get a CC permit.  You fill out some paperwork and police do a background check.  It sounds like much less paperwork and of a process than applying for a FID/pistol permit her in NJ.

 

She doesn't sound like she had much, if any, background or knowledge of guns.  It wasn't even her idea to get the gun & permit, which she only had for about a week before this happened.  Did everyone on this board saying, "She should have known better." know every firearm rule right after they purchased their first gun?  Probabaly not (as this very board proves). 

 

If I had to guess I would say a concerned relative suggested it and prob even helped her pck out the gun. Should she have educated herself more.  Probably.  Is the punishment about to meted out to her proporpaniate to her infraction of the law.  Absolutely not.

 

 

 

HBecwithFn7,  said:

Well, if you can offer a realistic/effective way to change it, I'm all for it.

 

 

How about calling Chris Christie's office or at least emailing and asking him to intervene or at least asking him to tell the the Atlantic County Prosecutor who has denied her entry into the diversionary program that would allow her to avoid jail time to allow her that option?  I'll be doing just that tomorrow morning.

 

If enough people call/email perhaps it will get his attention.

 

As to what we can do?  Keep doing what were doing.  Joining the NRA, educating our friends and coworkers by talking to them or bringing them to the range.  Volunteer to be one fo their personal referals and help them with any questions they may have.  Correct people who give incorrect information (such as when I was told over a decade ago how it is impossiblle to own a gun in NJ).

I agree with your points.  For those who stand on their soap boxes and declare that everyone should be a scholar on every arcane state law, I'd say you are expecting far too much.  I'm driving to Rhode Island soon.  Does that mean I need to google the traffic laws in NY, CT, and RI to see if a lane change requires 4 blips of the turn signal or only 2, or 3, or 10?

 

What's wrong with issuing a simple warning?  The lady had no record, no violent intent, and was following the proper procedure in telling the officer what she had.  He could have told her to lock it in the trunk and don't carry again in NJ.  She would have likely said "Oh crap, I didn't know that" and never did it again.  No court or incarceration costs, no wrecked family, no ruined reputation.  But why use even a small dose of common sense when a grand inquisition will push an agenda, right? 

Maybe NJ should erect signs at the border informing out of state drivers what the rules are, sort of like the signs on LBI telling us not pee in the water or attempt to play Frisbee before Sept 15th.

[Newtonian 453]

Maybe NJ should erect signs at the border informing out of state drivers what the rules are, sort of like the signs on LBI telling us not pee in the water or attempt to play Frisbee before Sept 15th.

That wouldn't be any fun would it? How would the legal system get its jollies? Seriously though, maybe Pennsylvania should erect signs a couple of miles from each river crossing. 

 

Does anyone who took the Utah test at Heritage Guild remember if the instructor mentioned this nonsense? For the life of me I don't recall. I remember him taking a good 30 minutes to address discretion, but not carrying in unfriendly territory.

[jackandjill 683]

The root cause is pretty simple.. too many honest, good, patriotic people (with no common sense) result in one BAD, Cluster F society.

 

* Population is constantly told to "see something, say something". Wouldn't you want to be THE patriot who saved the country ?

* People are constantly reminded of "mass shootings" and "violence" caused by guns. Wouldn't you want to be the LEO/Citizen who prevented next shooting ?

* Courts constantly reiterate guns and high capacity magazines "stained our nations' recent history with blood".. see the other thread about the guy who got TRO service

 

Bottomline, people (including LEOs) want to follow laws, be model citizens, patriots and will ignore all common sense and wont think twice when presented with an opportunity.  Whether its right or wrong, they would like to leave it to "authorities" to figure out.

[HBecwithFn7 296]

I agree with your points.  For those who stand on their soap boxes and declare that everyone should be a scholar on every arcane state law, I'd say you are expecting far too much.  I'm driving to Rhode Island soon.  Does that mean I need to google the traffic laws in NY, CT, and RI to see if a lane change requires 4 blips of the turn signal or only 2, or 3, or 10?

 

No but, obviously, the risk involved with a lane change violation is much less than improper possession/carrying of  a weapon. And, oddly enough, driving regulations are fairly standard across the country... more standardized than gun laws, at least... I realize that sucks and is offensive to those of us who believe strongly in the constitution, and 2A and HD/SD rights and the right to carry wherever we want, 24x7x365. Still, it is the law until changed. And our choices are to know/obey it, or be willing to accept the risks/consequences of not knowing/obeying it.

 

As stated before, do I know all the gun laws I need to know to possess/carry my guns everywhere I can do so, legally (or not)?  No, I don't. But I know enough to *not* possess/carry in places where I'm uncertain about it. And I know where to look up the information about each state (www.usacarry.com and handgunlaw.us) if I want to possess/carry there. It's not that hard. In fact, it seems quite intuitive, actually. I know... I know.... it's offensive to us 24x7x365'ers, and it absolutely sucks that we have to bother to look things like this up, rather than be as comfortable as we can afford to be with "lane change" laws..... But until that day, it's always going to be a risk/benefit calculation.  I'll either look up the laws, or I won't possess/carry there.

[AlDente67 563]

I see your point.  I was stretching it to make a point, intentionally.  But really, if I took a class at a local place, I doubt they'd educate me on other states laws, and your links to said laws aren't exactly widely-known.

 

The poor woman went through some tough times, got legal permits in PA to protect herself, and made the mistake of speeding or whatever she did to get pulled over in another state.  I still say give her a warning and send her on her way.  She would be more likely to cause an accident by switching lanes and colliding with another 4000-lb vehicle than randomly firing off a few rounds.  Which is more statistically possible?

 

But I know I'm just preaching to the choir for the most part.  But, but, where is the common sense and doing a judgement call based on the situation?  It is the same line of thinking that gets the 6-year old suspended from school because he pointed his finger and said Bang!

[HBecwithFn7 296]

I see your point.  I was stretching it to make a point, intentionally.  But really, if I took a class at a local place, I doubt they'd educate me on other states laws, and your links to said laws aren't exactly widely-known.

Which is why (earlier above) I called for training programs, at least, to mention the above two sites (as my multi-state CCW class did) so that students can research the laws. As stated, they should make it a "pre-class" exercise to use the sites to look up the "state with the most restrictive" laws, and bring the answer to class as "pre-homework." Give bonus points to those who bring the "correct answer" (DC-->NY-->NJ, etc.).

 

The poor woman went through some tough times, got legal permits in PA to protect herself, and made the mistake of speeding or whatever she did to get pulled over in another state.  I still say give her a warning and send her on her way.  She would be more likely to cause an accident by switching lanes and colliding with another 4000-lb vehicle than randomly firing off a few rounds.  Which is more statistically possible?

 

But I know I'm just preaching to the choir for the most part.  But, but, where is the common sense and doing a judgement call based on the situation?  It is the same line of thinking that gets the 6-year old suspended from school because he pointed his finger and said Bang!

I totally agree with you, here. The law may be the law, but that doesn't mean it's fair or just. I don't believe it is, nor do I believe the punishment fits the crime, in this case. I hope Evan Nappen can work his magic, and that we can put some effective pressure on the State officials to cut this lady a break.  Her intent was not criminal at all. She shouldn't be treated like one. It just totally sucks that the law treats her like one, and that the prosecutor etc. wants to "make an example" out of her.

[CMJeepster 2,778]

FYI, she was just on Fox News less than 40 minutes ago. Hopefully I can find the link tomorrow or someone else will...

[DirtyDigz 1,812]

FYI, she was just on Fox News less than 40 minutes ago. Hopefully I can find the link tomorrow or someone else will...

 

http://video.foxnews.com/v/3731008775001/prosecution-of-shaneen-allen-moves-ahead/?playlist_id=2114913880001#sp=show-clips

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot 358]

I think she will get convicted and CC will pardon her. There's too much to gain politically with a pardon in time for '16 primaries (think about that eloquent letter) and little downside because of the injustice of the case and she cuts a sympathetic figure hard to attack by liberals. Or, maybe I've been watching too much House of Cards.

[HBecwithFn7 296]

I think she will get convicted and CC will pardon her. There's too much to gain politically with a pardon in time for '16 primaries (think about that eloquent letter) and little downside because of the injustice of the case and she cuts a sympathetic figure hard to attack by liberals. Or, maybe I've been watching too much House of Cards.

 

What does that mean, though, for her CCW status in Philly? Would she still lose her CCW or her general firearm eligibility if she were pardoned in NJ?

 

Or would she have to go for "expungement" as a result of being pardoned?

[njpilot 671]

What does that mean, though, for her CCW status in Philly? Would she still lose her CCW or her general firearm eligibility if she were pardoned in NJ?

 

Or would she have to go for "expungement" as a result of being pardoned?

A pardon wipes the slate clean.

 

A commuted sentence just gets a person out of prison, but doesn't clear their record, ala Brian Aitken.

[HBecwithFn7 296]

A pardon wipes the slate clean.

 

A commuted sentence just gets a person out of prison, but doesn't clear their record, ala Brian Aitken.

 

As long as it clears her NICS record with the Feds.... and with PA.  I just don't know if it happens automatically upon issuance of a pardon, or if the legal team has work to do to clear it.

[PK90 3,570]

I have been enlightened by a creditable source, that the accused is not as "law abiding" as projected. Just say'n.

[BlueLineFish 615]

As usual there is always more to the story

[Duppie 73]

I have been enlightened by a creditable source, that the accused is not as "law abiding" as projected. Just say'n.

...and by "just say'n" does it negate the fact that the laws in NJ is any less obtrusive and idiotic?

 

Or perhaps you're implying the young lady is being prosecuted to the fullest extent of the laws because of something found in her past?

If so, it would appear that what ever she is accused of or prosecuted for was trivial enough to still qualify for a CCW permit in Philadelphia there by making your "just say'n" somewhat inconsequential in it's context.