Getting Started in Practical Shooting....with a Revolver

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

For you to consider competing with a revolver you have to have been bitten badly by the competition bug. For me, that is the case and what drives my purchasing decisions, and that is the perspective from which the following advice comes.

 

I think there are three solid choices (indicated with an asterisk) and three alternates – here they are:

 

S&W 686 SSR* – This gun is named such as it was built to shoot in the SSR Division (now subdivision) of IDPA. It is a pro series, rather than a PC which helps keep the cost down (although still higher than a regular 686). Only downside in my book is the fact that it’s chambered in .357 Mag. Being a purpose built gun, it should be a .38 Spl, but it wouldn’t have had wide enough appeal to sustain sales if that was the case. Just means you’ll spend more time scrubbing the chambers. Slab-sided barrel with tapered ejector rod housing makes it less nose heavy than the production gun, which means less recoil mitigation, but faster target transitions. Interchangeable front sight makes it easy to go to a fiber optic one.

 

S&W 686 – The ubiquitous gun. Not a slam – it’s ubiquitous because it does everything well. May not excel at any one thing, but that’s what gives rise to the 686 SSR. Full underlug makes this one nose-heavy, which is great for recoil mitigation, but gives the gun momentum in transitions, making it harder to control – just the opposite of the SSR configuration. Used 686’s aren’t that much less than new ones, but the point is that there are used ones. Best of the litter is the 686-4 (my opinion).

 

S&W 66-8 – This is the new Model 66, which solves the cracking forcing cone issue – although that would never be an issue using mouse-fart .38 Spl loads – which is what you should be using for IDPA, more on that below. This is a K-frame gun which is slightly smaller/lighter than the L-frame 686, although the grip frame is the same size so the hand/gun interface could be the same for both by virtue of grip choice. This uses a two-piece barrel system with a barrel “tube” held in tension by the outer shroud. Conventional design with just an ejector rod shroud, not a full underlug or tapering shroud. My son just bought one of these, but I haven’t had a chance to go shoot it with him.

 

S&W 625 – Who doesn’t love a big bore handgun? These dominated both disciplines (IDPA & USPSA) until USPSA let in the 8-shot revolvers. Can still be used in both and at the lower classifications can still be competitive in both. But realistically, is now an IDPA choice. I’m speaking here of the standard 625’s with a full underlug barrel – advantages/disadvantages as noted above. Some have the interchangeable front sight – some don’t, be aware when shopping. Again, not a large difference in price between new and used – a plus if you’re selling, a minus if buying. The JM versions have a ribbed trigger, some may like that, I don’t and think that it is blister-inducing when using this gun in competition and strictly double action mode. Jerry may like it, but he probably shoots on the order of 10K rounds per month and the trigger pad of his finger is probably a half-inch thick callous. Again something to keep in mind when shopping – there are variations with smooth triggers and a smooth trigger can always be installed in place of a ribbed one, but it will add to your cost. These are the greatest guns to learn about, and be introduced to moon clips. Those that hate them are misguided and haven’t spent enough time with them and/or have tried to “cheap-out” and not utilized the proper tools. These are the least fussy moon clip guns and moons are very inexpensive (on the order of $.40 each).

 

S&W 625PC* – The Performance Center version of the above. Differences include a tapered ejector rod housing, as opposed to a full-lug. A shorter cylinder and a smooth trigger. The shorter cylinder supposedly contributes to better accuracy since the jump to the forcing cone is less (shorter chamber throats), but personally I think that’s BS, especially for practical shooting. The downside of the short cylinder is that it makes the sight radius shorter as the barrel is set-back more in the frame – so while both the standard and the PC versions have 4” barrels, the OAL of the PC model is less (marginally so). I am not certain of the following and don’t feel like looking it up, but the PC guns use “old-fashioned” broach cut rifling, while newer production versions may be using ECM cut rifling – not sure, since the Pro series guns may also use broach cut. There are those that will tell you the ECM rifling is not cast-bullet friendly, but there are those on the other side of that argument that say it is more friendly. My opinion is that there are too many variables with cast bullets to attribute either accuracy or lack thereof solely to the rifling. Again, for practical purposes, no difference – especially since we are seeing less and less pure cast bullets being used – the move is to coated cast bullets which seem to work fine in both types of rifling regardless of the “core” bullet.

 

S&W 929* – Another performance Center gun that is purpose built for competition – this time for USPSA. Gives you an out-of-the-box solution to what used to be exclusively a hand-loader’s realm. Lots of 8-shot 627’s out there, but to be competitive, most owners use .38 Long or Short Colt – strictly a handloading proposition. The 929 allows you all the benefits of a short cartridge, moon clip gun with the ability to use inexpensive store-bought ammunition. The idea was to make this a competition gun that you can just buy and take to a match. That’s seldom the case. Revolver shooters are “fiddlers” by nature and they will always find some problem, real or imagined, that will call for a little fiddling to correct. Some of the early 929’s had some problems with sticky chambers and ejection. Some were picky about ammunition. These things happen with competition revolvers – they are like Ferraris – they are a thing of beauty when they work 100%, but getting to that station and maintaining it, maybe a costly enterprise. Moon clips for these are also expensive, and finding the right ones can be a trial & error nightmare – although at this point, most know what works and what doesn’t – using factory ammo may complicate this process somewhat.

 

AMMO – If you are just venturing into revolver shooting, one assumes the use of factory ammo that won’t break the bank. A wise consideration as the amount we spend on ammo and/or components far exceeds the actual cost of the gun and that happens in short order when we are talking about competition guns. The 9 mm obviously wins this battle – but there is only one gun that I’ve recommended that utilizes the 9 mm round and it is probably the most specialized – single purpose – gun of the lot. A consideration.

 

.45 ACP and .38 Special are about equal as far as cost (factory). However, a consideration of what gun to choose based on caliber has to look at more than just cost. A .45 ACP revolver competes in the Revolver division in either USPSA or IDPA. In the latter it competes in the ESR subdivision. The power factor for IDPA is 155 and for USPSA is 165 – factory ball ammo (the optimum for fast reloads) far exceeds those PF’s and thus handicaps the shooter by doling out more recoil to deal with. Also, marginally harder on the gun. The .38 Spl guns compete in the SSR subdivision of IDPA (while they can be used in USPSA also, it is pretty impractical) which has a PF of only 105 – real mouse-fart loads – but you can obtain factory ammo loaded almost down to that level. Another consideration is ammo brand. In order to optimize trigger pull in a revolver, Federal primers are a must – and if you are using factory ammo, that means sticking to Federal brand ammo – not too much of a hardship since Federal American Eagle ammo is both low-priced and high quality.

 

The above guns would range in price from about $600 to $1100 with the low-end being used 686’s and the upper end would be a new 929. When considering costs there are all those ancillary items like holsters, speed loaders, moon clips, holders for either of the preceding, tools for moon clips, etc.

 

So there you have it. Hope to see more wheelgunners out there trying their hand at something new and challenging.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[Nucrunner 75]

Ruger GP 100 Match Target? Just curious as to why it's not a consideration on your list.

 

Also, just a point - Last IDPA I shot here in South Jersey - it was a beautiful Saturday in February.

45 shooters and only 1 wheel gun....

[Krdshrk 3,878]

Ruger GP 100 Match Target? Just curious as to why it's not a consideration on your list.

 

That's because Bob is a S&W guy

 

One other point - Older 686's (like my -3) have an integral front sight - it may be harder to see and replacement requires some gunsmithing.

 

Speedloaders - Bob has a primer on those as well, but some work better/faster than others.

 

Practice which hand you're going to reload with.  I've been going back and forth between support hand reload or strong hand reload... During a match it can throw you off.

[Maksim 1,504]

Awesome write up bob. Thanks

[Nucrunner 75]

That's because Bob is a S&W guy

 

Ahh! I see it now..."S&W Revolver Fanboy"

 

Where can I find that primer on speed loaders?

 

I enjoy the hell out of IDPA, currently shooting a Range Officer in ESP, but I do have the Ruger and looking forward to one day being proficient enough to compete with it.

[Krdshrk 3,878]

Found it:

http://www.njgunforums.com/forum/index.php/topic/79767-wtb-sw-686-357mag/#entry1014941

 

 

Speed Loader Assessment:

 

HKS and 5 Star - fine for general range use. Requires two motions to load cartridges - insert/twist. Relies on gravity to chamber the rounds, so the muzzle must be pointing down. BTW - 5-Star release knob rotates the opposite direction from the HKS loaders

Safariland Comp I & II - Better for carry applications where concealability and speed are a concern. Just requires firm insertion to release the cartridges - no separate twist motion. Release button bears against the extractor star to release. Still relies on gravity to chamber the rounds. The Comp I has no top knob and must be grasped by the sides. The Comp II has a top knob making it easier to remove the loader from the carry pouch.

Safariland Comp III and Jet Loader - Competition style speed loaders. Single motion (insertion) to release rounds. Loader is spring-loaded and pushes the rounds into the chamber - does not rely on gravity. Large top knob for easy grasp and removal from pouch (not suitable for CC).

Dade & SpeedBeez (Center Fire) - both of these have a coil spring around the circumference of the body of the loader, that retains the rounds in the loader. The top knob pushes the cartridge rims past the spring into the chambers. Prone to losing cartridges if dropped - not real positive retention.

Variant SL - I've never seen these used, but from what I've heard these were excellent. Unfortunately, it appears the the lone importer for these is no longer bringing them into the country.

The loader you choose may be dependent on application (comp v. carry v. range) or availability of a particular loader for a particular cartridge/firearm combination, so optimum applications may not always be achievable.

As an alternative, companies like TKCustom can machine the revolver cylinder to accept moon clips without losing the ability to still use speed loaders or load rounds singly.

 

The only 7-shot speed loaders available are the HKS, 5-Star and SpeedBeez. 7-shot revolvers do not lend themselves well to any gun game - which is the perspective from which both Alec and I speak. I think of the 7-shot 686 as kind of the red-headed stepchild of the S&W line-up. The only positive use for the 7-shot is concealed carry with the 2.5" (maybe 3") barrel, where it is a smaller package than an N-frame, but offers the additional shot over a K-frame or 6-shot L-frame. The likelihood of being able to carry is slim, and even if you could, doubtful a revolver would be your weapon of choice.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

Thanks Nick.

 

@Nucrunner - as Nick pointed out and you caught looking above my avatar - I'm a S&W guy. But in addition to that there are far more competition accessories and components available for Smiths. It is also my understanding, and I've seen it happen twice, that when a Ruger is short-stroked it requires opening and closing the cylinder to get it back into action. With the Smith, you just pull the trigger again and the round is skipped. Some have told me that their Ruger doesn't behave that way - so maybe they've changed something. Basically, it's the first two points.

 

You get proficient by competing - everybody has to start somewhere. At the January match at Somerset, I lobbied strongly and rallied the troops and we had five revolver shooters compete. Last month, I took no special measures and we had four revolver shooters compete with several of them different people than the month before. Don't wait until you think your ready or you'll always find an excuse why you shouldn't try it - as Nike says, "Just do it."

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[fatty 241]

great write up!  Hoping to make it to the IDPA event in april with my 686.  My round-nose 38spl bullets (Bob, thanks for that suggestion) should be good to go by then

 

One question for you guys that reload 38spl:

 

In trying to reach 105PF, I would need to be below the recommended starting load with Titegroup and my 158gr RN (copper plated) rounds.  I've gotten good accuracy and consistency with 3.5 grains TG under the 158 plated bullet and is supposed to be rated for 111PF

 

Would I be in any real danger if say I dropped the powder charge slightly from 3.5 to 3.2gr?  (bullet stuck in the barrel?)

[Vlad G 345]

That's because Bob is a S&W guy

 

 

That, and because S&W are really the ONLY ones interested in making a competition revolver.   It is a shame, because SW can get away with varying QC and aging designs because no one is really challenging them.  I'm not saying I would use a revolver in competition, because I never drank from the Raritan river so I don't think I suffer heavy metal poisoning affecting my decision making progress (*), but something like the Mateba's and other advances in the field are simply non-existent now, because monopoly. 

 

 

(*) Of course I pick on the revolver shooter. Oh ok I guess shooters , there is more then one, but they are nice people but I feel like they are just asking for it.

[Krdshrk 3,878]

great write up!  Hoping to make it to the IDPA event in april with my 686.  My round-nose 38spl bullets (Bob, thanks for that suggestion) should be good to go by then

 

One question for you guys that reload 38spl:

 

In trying to reach 105PF, I would need to be below the recommended starting load with Titegroup and my 158gr RN (copper plated) rounds.  I've gotten good accuracy and consistency with 3.5 grains TG under the 158 plated bullet and is supposed to be rated for 111PF

 

Would I be in any real danger if say I dropped the powder charge slightly from 3.5 to 3.2gr?  (bullet stuck in the barrel?)

 

The power factor is MINIMUM power factor - if you're over it, then you're fine.

[alec.mc 180]

Bob, you forgot the S&W 627, which is probably the most common revolver for USPSA

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

Bob, you forgot the S&W 627, which is probably the most common revolver for USPSA

 

Didn't forget it - just not as practical for someone that doesn't handload (it's mentioned in the text) and this was geared to the beginning competition revolver shooter.

 

And yes, I do know that Josh uses full-length moon-clipped .38 Spls, in a 627, but you have to admit, he's the exception - not the rule.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[alec.mc 180]

Didn't forget it - just not as practical for someone that doesn't handload (it's mentioned in the text) and this was geared to the beginning competition revolver shooter.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

Gotcha, though - even sans hand loading - I think the 627 is still a viable option to consider for the new shooter. Running standard 158 grain factory ammo is a fine start for people wanting to shoot USPSA. 

 

(and the rumor is, factory 38 special is more likely to make power factor over factory 9mm in a 929 -but again, really not an issue for a new shooter to worry about)

[Nucrunner 75]

Pizza Bob, Nick - Thanks! I'm fired up!

Hope this thread runs for a bit....

[alec.mc 180]

 

 

And yes, I do know that Josh uses full-length moon-clipped .38 Spls, in a 627, but you have to admit, he's the exception - not the rule.

 

 

Yah, Josh used to use special before moving to the 929, There are some other decent shooters that shoot special length cases too. Though, admitedly - 38 long colt isnt THAT much shorter then specials.  0.15" shorter. nothing to hoot about. 

[alec.mc 180]

for anybody interested in learning a bit about the revolver game, Bob and I will be at Shongum Sportsmen association tomorrow morning for a USPSA match, feel free to approach me or bob and shoot the shit about stuffs. 

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

for anybody interested in learning a bit about the revolver game, Bob and I will be at Shongum Sportsmen association tomorrow morning for a USPSA match, feel free to approach me or bob and shoot the shit about stuffs.

 

Great idea. There will actually be four revolver shooters there, and while I can't put words in the others mouths, I'm sure that any of us would be more than happy to talk to you about revolvers and competition. These shooters represent various classifications. Jim Hinton and myself are both C shooters. Ken Ortbach is an A shooter and our own Alec is a Master class shooter. Feel free to approach us. Don't forget your eyes and ears - you can make yourself useful and tape targets while you're there. LOL

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[alec.mc 180]

Grand Master bob, get it right ! 

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

Grand Master bob, get it right !

 

I'm not worthy, I'm. not worthy.

[DargZ 5]

Nice write up Bob!

 

It would be interesting to see some details about equipment.  I have 929, a boat load of moon clips and BMT mooner but nothing else.  It's still going to be a while before I compete with one unless I feel sadistic.  

 

There's still a ton of work I want to do to it before I try to compete with it.  Trigger pull in DA is over the 12lb max my gauge can measure.  I did swap the cylinder release with a hogue.  I have some springs to lighten the trigger pull but don't really want to go the route of federal primers only at this time.  If the federal primers become more readily available in the future, I would consider it.

 

Wish list would be an Apex hammer as I don't want to hack up the original one and fiber optic front sight.

[the_stranger 13]

Great job Bob!

 

I have the 686SSR, 625 and 929. Really like all of them, but the now prefer the 625 and 929 because of the moonclips.

Still need to get a competition holster for the 929.

 

@Dargz. You will need a moon clip holder for your 929, if you use it for competition

I use the same one that I used for the 625. http://www.4wheelguns.com/Moon%20Clip%20Holder.html

 

 

P.S.  Revolvers for BUG matches?

.

[Krdshrk 3,878]

edit:  Stu corrected me

[Mr.Stu 1,928]

BUG is now a fully fledged division. Revolvers and semi-auto are grouped together and limited to 6 rounds max. NB. Not 6 + 1 for the semi-auto. Reload from the belt as needed. You are allowed 3 spare magazines. Calibre must be .380 or above and power factor is 95.

[mustang69 505]

What about looking for a used revolver from someone who used to complete?  Granted, anything that was tuned for competition has probably been around at least since the mid '80s, and technology has changed since then, but I came across an old Ruger Security Six that was obviously someone's competition piece given all the custom work done to it.  I don't compete so have no idea on how the classes work but this one was so cheap I couldn't pass it up. 

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

Most competition revolvers were used for PPC and are pretty useless for today's action pistol games as they don't conform to the rules of the revolver divisions in either major discipline. Trust me - revolver technology hasn't changed one iota.

 

Sounds like you lucked out - PPC revolvers are really pretty unique beasts, but as said, useless for anything but plinking. Dealers get these on trade and charge outrageous prices for them and can't understand why the "custom" revolver doesn't sell - and blames it on the fact that it's a revolver - not that it doesn't "fit" anywhere. PPC guns built by master gunsmiths like Ron Power are a different story - still not much good for anything, but it wasn't Bubba the Kitchen Table Gunsmith that put it together either,

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[Smokin .50 1,907]

We still shoot "old-fashioned" PPC at Old Bridge.  In fact, we'll be doing it again tomorrow night (Friday the 11th) at our indoor range.  Last month we did no-light / low-light instead of the usual 60 round COF.

 

You can shoot any hand gun that classifies for organized Steel:  Revolver-Iron, Revolver-Open, Auto-Iron, Auto-Open, .22 Iron and .22 Open.  For those that are unaware, "Open" means "dots", "comps" and/or BOTH!  We won't measure your barrel, so even phallicly-challenged guns can enter.  And YES I have a real PPC wheelie (all tricked-out) that can shoot tiny groups with factory ammo.  I'll let you borrow it if you want.

 

What I tell folks is DANCE WITH THE GIRL YOU BROUGHT!  In other words, learn how to use your defensive gun at varying ranges, and throw-in a little strong-hand and weak-hand for good measure!  Accuracy counts, but you're still "on-the-clock".  A great way to ease into action shooting leagues AND re-learn how to breathe and squeeze for the LONG distance shots (25 yards)!  

 

Hope to see some new-ish faces tomorrow night.  95 maple Street, Old Bridge, NJ  08857  at 6:30 pm for a start.  You can come later and still shoot!

 

Rosey

League Chair