Another Shooting at Gun For Hire

[Ricky_Bobby 130]

Sigh - very sad but yes RTSP has had 2 suicides in the past year or two as well -

 

I agree with the "No Suicides Allowed" or "Free ride to GWB" sign -

 

Tough part is that it stops me from going shooting with friends, wife, etc as often as I'd like to - I've had 2 couples decline going shooting with my wife and I in the past few months because "they heard people are blowing their brains out" at the ranges - word gets around and its not good to say the least.  Even my wife is hesitant to go to the range when she thinks someone might be offing themselves that day.

[Newtonian 453]

Unfortunately in the current political climate we are effectively telling people if they go for help, they will lose some rights so we encourage them not to seek medical help.

 

Somethings in life (or death) don't have solutions (especially government solutions which are sometimes worse then the problem they were supposed to fix).

 

Guns will be looked as the problem but they really have nothing to do with it.

You don't lose anything just by going to a shrink. Not yet anyway. I believe it's only if you're hospitalized. And depending on the diagnosis that is not always a bad thing. 

 

We've been over this before. What do you think GFH's yearly profit is for rentals to individuals who do not already own a gun? I'm talking minus overhead, salaries, etc. $100 per day? X 350 days = $35,500. Probably a LOT less since it's individuals who don't regularly shoot (if they did they'd have the ID). Say $8,000 a year.

 

What do they lose during a two-day shutdown, in business plus having to pay benefits and salaries and utilities? Plus the bad publicity, plus insurance rate hikes? Plus the clean-up, which if regulated has got to cost several thousand dollars (for head shots at least)? Plus the lawsuits? 

 

Not to mention the psychological aftermath of the incident, the knowledge that you rented a gun to someone that he used to kill himself?

 

Sounds like "no FID, no gun" is a policy worth trying. 

[carl_g 568]

You don't lose anything just by going to a shrink. Not yet anyway. I believe it's only if you're hospitalized. And depending on the diagnosis that is not always a bad thing. 

 

We've been over this before. What do you think GFH's yearly profit is for rentals to individuals who do not already own a gun? I'm talking minus overhead, salaries, etc. $100 per day? X 350 days = $35,500. Probably a LOT less since it's individuals who don't regularly shoot (if they did they'd have the ID). Say $8,000 a year.

 

What do they lose during a two-day shutdown, in business plus having to pay benefits and salaries and utilities? Plus the bad publicity, plus insurance rate hikes? Plus the clean-up, which if regulated has got to cost several thousand dollars (for head shots at least)? Plus the lawsuits? 

 

Not to mention the psychological aftermath of the incident, the knowledge that you rented a gun to someone that he used to kill himself?

 

Sounds like "no FID, no gun" is a policy worth trying. 

what if you are from out of state?

[PDM 91]

You make a good point, and since it's a private(?) business venture, they have the right to set rules, and are not violating our rights in doing so. So, if they were to try to set up rules for THEIR OWN BUSINESS to try to reduce the odds f this happening, I'm fine with it. 

 

I'm very much in favor of reducing gun deaths of all kinds, just like many Democrats (and Republicans), I just don't think we ought to restrict the rights of people in America to do it.

Never said they shouldn't be able to do it.  Just that I don't want to shoot there if they do.

[Newtonian 453]

what if you are from out of state?

I don't know the laws. All I know is I've shot as a guest in NJ in pre-ID days and have brought others without the paperwork to the range as well. 

[chris327 30]

You don't lose anything just by going to a shrink. Not yet anyway. I believe it's only if you're hospitalized. And depending on the diagnosis that is not always a bad thing. 

 

We've been over this before. What do you think GFH's yearly profit is for rentals to individuals who do not already own a gun? I'm talking minus overhead, salaries, etc. $100 per day? X 350 days = $35,500. Probably a LOT less since it's individuals who don't regularly shoot (if they did they'd have the ID). Say $8,000 a year.

 

What do they lose during a two-day shutdown, in business plus having to pay benefits and salaries and utilities? Plus the bad publicity, plus insurance rate hikes? Plus the clean-up, which if regulated has got to cost several thousand dollars (for head shots at least)? Plus the lawsuits? 

 

Not to mention the psychological aftermath of the incident, the knowledge that you rented a gun to someone that he used to kill himself?

 

Sounds like "no FID, no gun" is a policy worth trying. 

I think your numbers are way off here, people rent the gun, buy ammo at high rates, pay for range time. If they didnt rent then no ammo sale no range time sale. On a weekend it is nearly all renters and there is always a wait. I went a few months ago on a sunday in the morning there was a 2 hr wait. I understand they have a ton of overhead too. But without the renters the range would not be as packed as it is and they wouldnt need all the employees they have. There must be 30 people working between rso's, concierges, and people working the sign in desk with the rentals and all. Im not sure but i would go to say the rentals are a big part of their total sales here and without the rentals i dont think they would be expanding as much as they are. These are just my opinions. I agree maybe some policies should be looked at again. but that is their business policies.

[NJGF 375]

You don't lose anything just by going to a shrink. Not yet anyway. I believe it's only if you're hospitalized. And depending on the diagnosis that is not always a bad thing. 

 

We've been over this before. What do you think GFH's yearly profit is for rentals to individuals who do not already own a gun? I'm talking minus overhead, salaries, etc. $100 per day? X 350 days = $35,500. Probably a LOT less since it's individuals who don't regularly shoot (if they did they'd have the ID). Say $8,000 a year.

 

What do they lose during a two-day shutdown, in business plus having to pay benefits and salaries and utilities? Plus the bad publicity, plus insurance rate hikes? Plus the clean-up, which if regulated has got to cost several thousand dollars (for head shots at least)? Plus the lawsuits? 

 

Not to mention the psychological aftermath of the incident, the knowledge that you rented a gun to someone that he used to kill himself?

 

Sounds like "no FID, no gun" is a policy worth trying. 

 

If your doctor is anti-gun and finds out you have guns he can report your condition and potentially get you in a big mess. Under HRC this may even become mandatory just like they want to exclude people on SS who have someone help them with their finances. It reeks of big brother.

 

GFH also does corporate outings as well as parties, etc. Probably few of these people own guns or have FPID's. It's Anthony's business and he will make the decision unless the government gets involved and we know what they want.

[Newtonian 453]

If your doctor is anti-gun and finds out you have guns he can report your condition and potentially get you in a big mess. Under HRC this may even become mandatory just like they want to exclude people on SS who have someone help them with their finances. It reeks of big brother.

 

GFH also does corporate outings as well as parties, etc. Probably few of these people own guns or have FPID's. It's Anthony's business and he will make the decision unless the government gets involved and we know what they want.

How is he going to find out if you don't tell him? And if you lied, even on a form, are they going to inspect the home of everyone who visits a psychologist, psychiatrist, or social worker? OTOH should someone who is suicidal or is experiencing schizophrenic hallucinations have a gun? It's complicated. Again, I'll bet that nothing happens unless you're hospitalized. 

[Newtonian 453]

I think your numbers are way off here, people rent the gun, buy ammo at high rates, pay for range time. If they didnt rent then no ammo sale no range time sale. On a weekend it is nearly all renters and there is always a wait. I went a few months ago on a sunday in the morning there was a 2 hr wait. I understand they have a ton of overhead too. But without the renters the range would not be as packed as it is and they wouldnt need all the employees they have. There must be 30 people working between rso's, concierges, and people working the sign in desk with the rentals and all. Im not sure but i would go to say the rentals are a big part of their total sales here and without the rentals i dont think they would be expanding as much as they are. These are just my opinions. I agree maybe some policies should be looked at again. but that is their business policies.

I forgot about the range and ammo charges. But really, the majority of weekend shooters don't have their own weapon? That's what I'm talking about, not somebody with a P2P who's trying out a new gun.

[T Bill 649]

Well, I can see the rental business all go away in NJ. Range rentals are a legislator's "low hanging fruit". I will bet that we will see new laws for psych evals for FIDs.  This has come up before, but in 2018 everything comes out of the woodwork.  No Eval, no touch gun, period, for all types of firearms. Just as it is with bars and alcohol. lawsuits and laws stating no rentals to those that look like they have a problem. Does not matter how to enforce it, they will make it law and that will be a killer for businesses.  I know you sign a disclosure statement when renting, but I am still surprised there have been no lawsuits filed that I know of for wrongful death against the ranges.  We all know lawyers will try anything for a settlement, even question the agreement and the person's state of mind at the time they signed it.

[AVB-AMG 530]

I want to express my shock and sadness regarding the news of this most unfortunate recent event at GFH/Woodland Park Range.  As I believe most of us understand, suicide will never go away and it is a shame that a disturbed individual, regardless of whether or not they are a LEO or a repeat customer, chooses to attempt or succeed in this sad selfish act in a public forum surrounded by many other innocent people, whether it is a gun range or other public and populated venue.  They expose other innocent bystanders to witness their horrible desperate act, as well as potentially putting those people in physical harm’s way. 

 

The stark factual statistics show that for the past several years in the USA, there have been approximately 31,000+ deaths via guns per year, with about one-third being homicides and two-thirds being suicides.  For people who try to end their lives with a gun, they are successful in approx. 85% of the time and the majority of these people are white males. (This factual information is from the Center for Disease Control (CDC's) web-based Injury Statistics Query and Reporting System, (WISQARS), which is an interactive, online database that provides fatal and nonfatal injury, violent death, and cost of injury data from a variety of trusted sources, along with the National Violent Death Reporting System, both of which use data compiled that is around 2-3 years old).

 

As a member of both GFH and RTSP, I have the highest regard and respect for everyone at both ranges, from the ownership partners, management, RSO’s, sales, training and gunsmith staff. Most of us understand that the process and procedures that both GFH and RTSP and other gun ranges have put into effect and will possibly modify, in an attempt to reduce the chances for this type of incident of being repeated, are the “cost” of doing business.  We will certainly abide by whatever additional rules and regulations they institute to attempt to avoid a repeat or similar incident in the future. While some may find these new rules inconvenient it is their business to run as they see fit, abiding by ever more intrusive insurance requirements.  Everyone at GFH has our sincere condolences and best wishes on dealing with the aftermath of this most recent tragic event.

 

I do think that a "members only" range time allocation, such as what RTSP has or a "members only" range that GFH is planning on having in their new expanded range, is one way to allow us to separate ourselves from the general public novices who rent guns, primarily on weekends or in the evening hours.  I am not very comfortable shooting at these ranges when these folks are shooting in the lane or port next to me and this separation goes a long way to address that issue.  Like many NJGF posters, I have rented various guns at both of these ranges to "test drive" them to determine how the gun feels in my hand, amount of recoil, weight, and sights, etc., to help me decide my preferences on a potential purchase.  It would be most unfortunate to see that option being taken away, but I am all for instituting additional requirements (FID card, etc.), for allowing anyone off the street to rent a gun at these type of public ranges.

AVB-AMG

[chris327 30]

I forgot about the range and ammo charges. But really, the majority of weekend shooters don't have their own weapon? That's what I'm talking about, not somebody with a P2P who's trying out a new gun.

I would be willing to bet that there are more renters than owners on the weekend at GFH. Not sure about other ranges. But from what i have seen there i would think most on the weekends dont have a FID. The majority of people are waiting empty handed, no range bag or anything with them. And most of us that own guns also bring our own ammo. So there goes a good portion of their ammo sales. Not saying whats right wrong or anything but just stating your numbers dont seem right to me.

[Newtonian 453]

I would be willing to bet that there are more renters than owners on the weekend at GFH. Not sure about other ranges. But from what i have seen there i would think most on the weekends dont have a FID. The majority of people are waiting empty handed, no range bag or anything with them. And most of us that own guns also bring our own ammo. So there goes a good portion of their ammo sales. Not saying whats right wrong or anything but just stating your numbers dont seem right to me.

I have very limited experience with indoor ranges, 8 or 9 trips to RTSP, tops. I always went during the week and never noticed what people did. I had to wait once and another time I just went to pick up a handgun.

 

The ranges don't post here or share their info. But I find it very very hard to believe that any range does more business with people who don't own guns than with those who do. Doesn't make sense. It would be like gas stations serving more car renters than owners. OTOH I've been bowling once or twice a year for 50 years and never bought my own ball or shoes, so I guess it's possible. 

[bhunted 887]

I forgot about the range and ammo charges. But really, the majority of weekend shooters don't have their own weapon? That's what I'm talking about, not somebody with a P2P who's trying out a new gun.

I'm gonna throw a number at you that I was privy to. Take a deep breath.

 

How about 1.2 million walk ins in the 4 years they have been open. I'll leave it to you to speculate the math.

 

 

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[Howard 538]

I forgot about the range and ammo charges. But really, the majority of weekend shooters don't have their own weapon? That's what I'm talking about, not somebody with a P2P who's trying out a new gun.

I would agree the majority don't have their own guns or FID.  I see passports used as ID many times.  I think your estimate of the profits are probably off by an order of magnitude or more.  The rental business has to be a huge portion of the business model for these ranges.  Let's do some basic math.  Assume the port rental is around $20 for an hour, in actuality it may be more as I think they typically charge more if a second person joins you. Since the cost for the port is basically a sunk cost, that full $20 goes to contribution margin.  The gun rental of say $10 is almost pure contribution also, yea there is some wear and tear and cleaning but it is close to a $10 margin.  Then you have ammo, which gets used fairly quickly.  You don't spend a full hour in a port with one box of ammo, so let's assume there are two boxes of ammo.  That is probably at least $10 of profit - probably more.  Let's not forget the paper targets that are probably the highest profit margin at any range.  So you are perhaps talking about another $5 contribution after costs.  So, we are up to $45 to the bottom line for that one non-gun owner.  That assumes that they don't take any lessons, buy anything else and just do the minimum.  Obviously some buy more ammo, take lessons, buy food etc..  Also with two boxes of ammo I am thinking they spend less than a full hour on the line.  So, let's say they can sell three hours over the course of two actual hours.  That comes out to over $65 an hour to the bottom line.  Compare that to someone that comes with their own gun.  That group may pay nothing if they are a member, or $10 at some places or maybe the full $20 if they only come sporadically.  So, let's assume the average is $10 an hour, but I think that might be low depending on the range.  They probably buy little if any ammo as they source their own cheaper and may bring their own targets or let's say they buy some so add $3.  So, the bottom line contribution margin is $13 versus $65 for the non-owner non FID holder.  If my math is even remotely close (I have no inside knowledge) that means the range makes roughly five times the amount of money from the non-owner.  Heck with that math us gun owners are lucky they even let us come to shoot, they would be far better off only letting non gun owners come if they could attract enough.  Just sayin.

[Newtonian 453]

I'm gonna throw a number at you that I was privy to. Take a deep breath.

 

How about 1.2 million walk ins in the 4 years they have been open. I'll leave it to you to speculate the math.

 

 

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Not to bust your balls but that number is impossible. It comes out to 892 walk-ins per day, 365 days a year, 68 people per hour (assuming 12 hour/day operation) for 4 years. It also means they've raked in $30 million in that time, assuming no rentals or ammo purchases. Whoever gave you those numbers is F.o.S. GFH would have a line stretching to Giants Stadium. 

 

P.S. I've never been to GFH. For all I know it could be large enough to process that many people. 

[Newtonian 453]

I would agree the majority don't have their own guns or FID.  I see passports used as ID many times.  I think your estimate of the profits are probably off by an order of magnitude or more.  The rental business has to be a huge portion of the business model for these ranges.  Let's do some basic math.  Assume the port rental is around $20 for an hour, in actuality it may be more as I think they typically charge more if a second person joins you. Since the cost for the port is basically a sunk cost, that full $20 goes to contribution margin.  The gun rental of say $10 is almost pure contribution also, yea there is some wear and tear and cleaning but it is close to a $10 margin.  Then you have ammo, which gets used fairly quickly.  You don't spend a full hour in a port with one box of ammo, so let's assume there are two boxes of ammo.  That is probably at least $10 of profit - probably more.  Let's not forget the paper targets that are probably the highest profit margin at any range.  So you are perhaps talking about another $5 contribution after costs.  So, we are up to $45 to the bottom line for that one non-gun owner.  That assumes that they don't take any lessons, buy anything else and just do the minimum.  Obviously some buy more ammo, take lessons, buy food etc..  Also with two boxes of ammo I am thinking they spend less than a full hour on the line.  So, let's say they can sell three hours over the course of two actual hours.  That comes out to over $65 an hour to the bottom line.  Compare that to someone that comes with their own gun.  That group may pay nothing if they are a member, or $10 at some places or maybe the full $20 if they only come sporadically.  So, let's assume the average is $10 an hour, but I think that might be low depending on the range.  They probably buy little if any ammo as they source their own cheaper and may bring their own targets or let's say they buy some so add $3.  So, the bottom line contribution margin is $13 versus $65 for the non-owner non FID holder.  If my math is even remotely close (I have no inside knowledge) that means the range makes roughly five times the amount of money from the non-owner.  Heck with that math us gun owners are lucky they even let us come to shoot, they would be far better off only letting non gun owners come if they could attract enough.  Just sayin.

Very convincing analysis. The question remains how many walk-in, non-FID renters come in vs. legal owners. Some posters think it's most, I would guess is very few, but I'm not privy to the actual numbers and have never visited GFH. Even if it's just 5%, it's a huge chunk of business to lose.

[chris327 30]

Very convincing analysis. The question remains how many walk-in, non-FID renters come in vs. legal owners. Some posters think it's most, I would guess is very few, but I'm not privy to the actual numbers and have never visited GFH. Even if it's just 5%, it's a huge chunk of business to lose.

I would encourage your to at least go visit the place on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon. Why do you think they are building a members only range next door?

 

also i agree the 1.2 million number is wrong. i heard that number too but dont believe it. on this link it says 104k visitors. thats much more believable but still a very high number.

http://gunforhire.com/first-time-shooting/

[bhunted 887]

Not to bust your balls but that number is impossible. It comes out to 892 walk-ins per day, 365 days a year, 68 people per hour (assuming 12 hour/day operation) for 4 years. It also means they've raked in $30 million in that time, assuming no rentals or ammo purchases. Whoever gave you those numbers is F.o.S. GFH would have a line stretching to Giants Stadium.

Not my numbers.... Ask Anthony. What possibly can throw this number off might be that walk-ins are not just one person. It's a minimum of two. I've been in there when a party of people come in and rent. They'll even rent a bunch of different guns one after another. How he derives at that number is unbeknownst to me. Don't shoot the messenger.

 

 

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[bhunted 887]

I would encourage your to at least go visit the place on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon. Why do you think they are building a members only range next door?

 

also i agree the 1.2 million number is wrong. i heard that number too but dont believe it. on this link it says 104k visitors. thats much more believable but still a very high number.

http://gunforhire.com/first-time-shooting/

Anthony can get carried away. Lol...

 

 

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[bhunted 887]

From our mayor just a short time ago:

 

 

 

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[Newtonian 453]

Not my numbers.... Ask Anthony. What possibly can throw this number off might be that walk-ins are not just one person. It's a minimum of two. I've been in there when a party of people come in and rent. They'll even rent a bunch of different guns one after another. How he derives at that number is unbeknownst to me. Don't shoot the messenger.

 

 

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I'm unloaded and pointing in a safe direction

 

Actually I just checked their hours and it's more like 70 hours per week, so 10 hours/day, more like 90 walk-ins per hour. I assume that unless you're a member it takes at least five minutes to process each one, select a gun, buy ammo and targets, scan the credit card. RTSP also has a waiver and safety video for people who haven't been there before -- regardless of their experience. Add 20 minutes per group. If they had 10 workers who did nothing but process people who walked in it would take 45 minutes just to reach the cash register. (90 x 5 minutes/10). 27 minutes at 3 minutes per customer. If they have 50 ports the wait would be reach two hours soon after they opened up and they'd have to turn the last 200 people away. Do they have 50 ports? 100? 800? Gadzooks. Couldn't find the number on their site. 

 

You get the picture. I wish GFH all the success in the world but 1.2 million in four years is a Hoboken Miracle. 

[Michael2013 56]

When we complain about the miserable status of the gun owners in NJ, we agree that more people should be involved in shooting.  Ranges like GFH are doing exactly this, they try to attract new shooters.  Rental is not "just business" it is a political action, if I may say so.  I don't understand why so many of us against rentals.
Suicides - sad but unavoidable.  Maybe some extra measures can be taken, but rentals must go on.

[Newtonian 453]

When we complain about the miserable status of the gun owners in NJ, we agree that more people should be involved in shooting.  Ranges like GFH are doing exactly this, they try to attract new shooters.  Rental is not "just business" it is a political action, if I may say so.  I don't understand why so many of us against rentals.

Suicides - sad but unavoidable.  Maybe some extra measures can be taken, but rentals must go on.

GFH is an incredible, wonderful resource. 

 

Nobody said they're against rentals. It's a legit business. Only brought it up as a suggestion, a business decision and reaction to an event, not a public policy. I think the mayor hit the nail on the head.

[bhunted 887]

I'm unloaded and pointing in a safe direction

 

Actually I just checked their hours and it's more like 70 hours per week, so 10 hours/day, more like 90 walk-ins per hour. I assume that unless you're a member it takes at least five minutes to process each one, select a gun, buy ammo and targets, scan the credit card. RTSP also has a waiver and safety video for people who haven't been there before -- regardless of their experience. Add 20 minutes per group. If they had 10 workers who did nothing but process people who walked in it would take 45 minutes just to reach the cash register. (90 x 5 minutes/10). 27 minutes at 3 minutes per customer. If they have 50 ports the wait would be reach two hours soon after they opened up and they'd have to turn the last 200 people away. Do they have 50 ports? 100? 800? Gadzooks. Couldn't find the number on their site.

 

You get the picture. I wish GFH all the success in the world but 1.2 million in four years is a Hoboken Miracle.

I forget. Think 13 at 25 yards and 6 at 50.

If you go to their web page, you can actually walk through it with the virtual online tour.

 

 

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[NJGF 375]

Also remember that sometimes more than one person will walk-in and shoot together.

 

Before I got my permits, I was a walk-in with no gun nor permits. 

[Howard 538]

Very convincing analysis. The question remains how many walk-in, non-FID renters come in vs. legal owners. Some posters think it's most, I would guess is very few, but I'm not privy to the actual numbers and have never visited GFH. Even if it's just 5%, it's a huge chunk of business to lose.

Thanks, it was just a back of the envelop SWAG as I was typing it.  Even if it is off by 50% it still shows the importance of the rental business.  My guess is that it is a huge percentage of the customers during peak weekend and holiday hours, a decent percentage in the evenings and a low percentage during mid-week days.  Have not given the total percentage a huge amount of thought, but if you factor those three time spans together I would guess it is somewhere between 30-70 percent -just a SWAG.  I could probably refine that if I cared to take the time and think more - but bottom line it is a very important part of the business model.

[Michael2013 56]

GFH has separate counters for members and non-members, hence separate lines.  Last time I went there, I was 2nd in line for members, and the non-member line was about 10-person long.

[Newtonian 453]

I forget. Think 13 at 25 yards and 6 at 50.

If you go to their web page, you can actually walk through it with the virtual online tour.

 

 

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With just 20 ports and 90 people per hour walking through, even if you arrived at opening and they enforced a one-hour limit the wait would be > an hour. By 2pm the wait would be five hours. I would consider running blind buck naked onto Rte 80 if I had to wait that long.

 

(Plug for my favorite outdoor range deleted out of respect).

[chris327 30]

GFH has separate counters for members and non-members, hence separate lines.  Last time I went there, I was 2nd in line for members, and the non-member line was about 10-person long.

i think the two lines is so members dont have to wait while renters pick out what to rent, buy ammo, get everything they need explained ect. when no members are waiting they pull from the non member line.