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Howard

Need PC advice from a computer guru

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Just moved to FL from NJ and now my Desktop computer died :( Have not gone computer shopping in quite some time and don't know where to buy around here or even what to buy. If anyone is an expert I would appreciate advice. Besides the normal daily stuff I use the machine to process photos from my Full Frame Nikon D800e camera in Adobe Lightroom. My current machine, although dated, was quite powerful. It was an early i7 3ghz processor with 24 gb memory and a good but not great graphics card. Have four 2TB hard drives in it along with a 256gb SSD and DVD Drive. Have two good monitors hooked to it so really only need the guts not an off the shelf complete system. Any and all suggestions welcomed. I had built it from components that I bought at Microcenter in Patterson, unfortunately they don't have a store with me but I guess I could buy parts from them online if I had a shopping list.  Any advice welcomed.  Thanks

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Do you know what died on the old PC?  Maybe if it's a simple component, replace that?

I keep an eye on Reddit, r/buildapcsales - https://www.reddit.com/r/buildapcsales/

Look out for some deals on prebuilts and see what people are saying about 'em.

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This may be the lazy path of least resistance but I have been happy buying all (work and home) PC's from Dell.  Sign up for their email offers they have almost every week.  Building your own has its rewards but as you said, you need a MicroCenter or such nearby.

With all those disk devices, you might consider a multi-port SATA to USB box to keep your files on-line.

All your processing needs means sticking with the I7.  Don't sweat the GHz clock rate but rather get all the RAM that will fit.  RAM is, performance-wise, your best bang for the buck.

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I thought it was the power supply, but I ordered and will be sending back a replacement, as that did not take care of it.  I am guessing it is something on the motherboard.  It gets about halfway though starting up and then just shuts down.  Guessing perhaps a capacitor on the MB went bad or something like that.  

The only problem with Dell is that they use (or used to use) a bunch of proprietary boards and combined function boards.  Rather stick with an ASUS motherboard and discrete components.  Agreed RAM is king, as is an SSD for the system.

Love my iPhone and iPad, but don't like MACs.  You pay a heck of a lot more for their hardware and the operating system is no better than Windows anymore and all the software runs on both.

 

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Can you boot from a Windows CD or DVD? Or a USB stick?

This should indicate whether it's the mother board, or boot disk related. You need to specify what 'halfway starting up' means.

 

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*Are you saying that the PC doesn't make it through POST?

*Are you able to see Windows load?

*Try reseating the components like the RAM and video card on the MB. Also, try to boot with each stick of RAM.

*Can you boot to SAFE MODE?

Regards,

TokenEntry

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It’s not a boot problem perse. It goes through the bios startup and shows all the equipment, sometimes it does there. Other times it makes to the windows 10 logo and then goes down. It seems like it is losing power at that point. The current power supply has three lights on it and when it dies two of them go out. The new power supply did not have lights, but similar problem. Assuming something on the MB went, probably a capacitor I am guessing.

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1 hour ago, Howard said:

Love my iPhone and iPad, but don't like MACs.  You pay a heck of a lot more for their hardware and the operating system is no better than Windows anymore and all the software runs on both.

 

I was with you until you said Mac OS is not better than Windows... 

First of all integration between Apple devices is amazing... so already having those mobile Apple devices it would be a great addition.. 

IF you game.. I will accept that Windows may be a better choice.. but if you don't.. Mac all day long.. 

I spent YEARS hating on Apple mostly due to the absurd price tag.. then I got a MacBook Pro from work.. that was in 2013.. that computer is still running strong enough that I run an insane amount of applications on multiple desktops all day every day with zero issues... I have not restarted that computer in months maybe even close to a year.. no errors.. no crashing OS or applications.. 

Mac has been far more stable and reliable than Windows ever has been for me.. I finally bit the bullet and got a Mac for my house and now literally everything I own is Apple (except my watch that is a Suunto).. I am not sure if it is the Unix base that Apple OS uses.. but seriously its not even a comparison between the two environments..

My Mac that has similar hardware specs to my other computer at work that is Windows based and runs circles around the Windows machine.. Apple support is also exceptional.. if you have a computer.. and it will run the latest OS release.. you get it.. for free.. no upgrade costs.. 

I would literally never purchase anything other than Apple as long as I can help it.. 


 

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13 minutes ago, Howard said:

It’s not a boot problem perse. It goes through the bios startup and shows all the equipment, sometimes it does there. Other times it makes to the windows 10 logo and then goes down. It seems like it is losing power at that point. The current power supply has three lights on it and when it dies two of them go out. The new power supply did not have lights, but similar problem. Assuming something on the MB went, probably a capacitor I am guessing.

Did the desktop work when you got to FL and it shortly started having issues? It seems like an issue where the CPU is overheating from what you're describing.

Regards,

TokenEntry

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1 hour ago, vladtepes said:

that computer is still running strong enough that I run an insane amount of applications on multiple desktops all day every day with zero issues... I have not restarted that computer in months maybe even close to a year.. no errors.. no crashing OS or applications.. 

I have an 11 year old PC that does that too.  So, what's your point?  I turn it off every 3 or four months to blow out the power supply and dust off the mobo.

 

1 hour ago, Howard said:

Assuming something on the MB went, probably a capacitor I am guessing.

Open the case and inspect the mobo, if you suspect it's a cap, there will be signs of bulging or leakage.

I'm unclear on something.  Did the PC survive the move and started acting up after a period of time or did it not survive the move?

Try this, it's surprising how often this worked when I was a PC tech.  If you can't figure out what's wrong, take it apart, , clean, inspect and put back together.  Sometimes a stick of memory creeps out or becomes oxidized on the contacts and causes just enough problems to keep the machine from booting.  Same with video cards and such. 

It could also be overheating.  Processors heat up very fast and without proper heat sinking, the machine will automatically shut down to prevent damage to the CPU..

 

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Open the case and inspect the mobo, if you suspect it's a cap, there will be signs of bulging or leakage.
I'm unclear on something.  Did the PC survive the move and started acting up after a period of time or did it not survive the move?
Try this, it's surprising how often this worked when I was a PC tech.  If you can't figure out what's wrong, take it apart, , clean, inspect and put back together.  Sometimes a stick of memory creeps out or becomes oxidized on the contacts and causes just enough problems to keep the machine from booting.  Same with video cards and such. 
It could also be overheating.  Processors heat up very fast and without proper heat sinking, the machine will automatically shut down to prevent damage to the CPU..
 



Good suggestions will try them. I had some related issues where it shut down before the move. Survived move fine and ran for three weeks before acting up. Then one morning it went to sleep and did not want to wake up. The dirt or loose component makes a lot of sense. Thanks.
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28 minutes ago, Scorpio64 said:

I have an 11 year old PC that does that too.  So, what's your point?  I turn it off every 3 or four months to blow out the power supply and dust off the mobo.

I think his point is that Windows OS sucks.

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To me it sounds like it's either the CPU itself because its now bad, or your dealing with a thermal shutdown (ie CPU too hot) since it sounds like it happens at different times.   The thermal paste that goes between the CPU and heat sink can and will dry up and become useless/less effective after a while.  This sounds like it could be approaching that age where this could be an issue.  Now it could have also already over heated the CPU to a point where its bad and would need to be replaced, but I would suggest at least getting a $6 tube of thermal paste, taking the heat sync off the cpu and cleaning up the old paste on both the CPU and heat sink and putting new stuff on it following the directions. 

I have seen in the past a bad component also cause an issue after post. This is a fairly simple test as well.  Just take note exactly how and where everything is connected and disconnect everything, ram, drives, dvd, etc even the mouse and keyboard.  Start it up and take notes on where it gets to, what it does and what, if any messages is gives you.  Then start adding stuff back one at a time, powering it up fresh each time.  Keyboard next (as your board may give you a no keyboard error so at this point that one would be resolved) , then the mouse. Then one stick of ram. then the boot drive (assuming its the SSD) etc.  If its acts the same way on any of those steps even before you get the rest of the equipment back in, then I would push my focus back to the CPU as stated above.

On a side note .. all those extra drives .. for photo/video space etc and lightroom.   My suggestion would be to invest in a Synology NAS unit and put in what drives you want in it, rather than keeping them in the PC.  Use a RAID level that gives you the performance and protection you would need/want.

As far a a MAC because you use lightroom/photos... eh .. yea you could but that's a steep learning curve if you have never used mac before.  They are good.  I run both PC and apple products, and have used lightroom on both but you can do just as much on PC and if that's where your experience and expertise is, i wouldnt suggest a platform change at this time unless their is a specific reason to do so, like a piece of software that does not exist for windows.

As far as getting a Dell.  Actually they hold up quite nicely now a days.  However I would stick with a PC from the "business side" of their "work" side of things.   When you go in to get a desktop per say you pick "home PC' or "work PC.   Its does make some selections either not available or available depending on your selection, but for instance you can get an XPS either way, however its the support here that makes the difference.   When you get the support package add on.. and i would also suggest adding the 3 or 4 year package on. When you call for support and you have "home support" your getting somebody physically in India, Pakistan etc.  Not very knowledgeable, they follow scripts and are a pain to deal with, most of the time hard to understand.   When you have "work" support, the support desks are here in the states (sometimes canada) and you run into a lot less problems. not saying you still won't get someone with an accent, but the help desks here in the states for the business users are miles ahead and better than that of the "home PC" support desks

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Your first sentence sounds exactly like me.  Just moved to FL ( Naples ) at the end of last year.  PC just died.  It was 10 yrs old and showing signs of the end.  I too would shop in Micro Center, great for picking up parts.  Their online is a different store that has next top nothing.  Wound ordering all parts off Amazon.

Problem with old PC's is that most parts can't be reused in a new system.  Your older I7 system probably had DDR3 ram, current systems use DDR4.  Older cases probably had USB2 front ports, newer MB's and cases have USB3 or 3.1.  The older I7 most likely has a different pinout then current ones, along with requiring a different chipset on the MB to support it.

I'd guess that you have already checked all fans on the , CPU, PSU, and possibly chipset.  Your computer bios would most likely have a way to check all temps, fans and PSU voltages.

you can check a PSU by removing the large connector from the MB, jumper the green wire to a black, it will power up the power supply, then you can measure the voltages on the pins with a meter.  3.3V wires are orange; +5V wires are red; -5V wires are white; +12V wires are yellow; -12V wires are blue; ground wires are black

Best way I find to check RAM is to use Memtest86+, run it off a bootable USB.  Use something like YUMI to make it easy.

Lots of times on older PC's the battery dies and BIOS settings get messed up, especially with RAM settings.

I find Dell PC's are fine if you never  want to add or change anything in them, I use one just for browsing the internet.

If you are getting a new MB, and will not overclock ( much ) any basic model will work, just get one with the sound and gig ethernet onboard.

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The problem is not something failing at startup, not beeps or error message, system just shuts down.  Thus, I feel it is either an overheat issue with CPU or some sort of short or capacitor.  Will try unplugging everything and seeing if that helps, I recall I once had an issue a few years back and doing that fixed it so maybe same issue.  I guess something could have come loose in the car trip here.

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If you want to monitor temps and voltages, try:

https://www.cpuid.com/softwares/hwmonitor.html

Running a memory test is never a bad thing, I do it on all new memory, kind of surprising how many bad sticks out of the box I've seen.  And bad memory will cause random crashes.

Typically when those caps go bad the bulge at the top and vent, there were major problems years back, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague, but any of those should have died long ago.

You can also check the Windows Reliability Monitor or Event Viewer ( System log ) to see what it shows.

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On 7/13/2018 at 7:47 PM, vladtepes said:

I was with you until you said Mac OS is not better than Windows... 

First of all integration between Apple devices is amazing... so already having those mobile Apple devices it would be a great addition.. 

IF you game.. I will accept that Windows may be a better choice.. but if you don't.. Mac all day long.. 

I spent YEARS hating on Apple mostly due to the absurd price tag.. then I got a MacBook Pro from work.. that was in 2013.. that computer is still running strong enough that I run an insane amount of applications on multiple desktops all day every day with zero issues... I have not restarted that computer in months maybe even close to a year.. no errors.. no crashing OS or applications.. 

Mac has been far more stable and reliable than Windows ever has been for me.. I finally bit the bullet and got a Mac for my house and now literally everything I own is Apple (except my watch that is a Suunto).. I am not sure if it is the Unix base that Apple OS uses.. but seriously its not even a comparison between the two environments..

My Mac that has similar hardware specs to my other computer at work that is Windows based and runs circles around the Windows machine.. Apple support is also exceptional.. if you have a computer.. and it will run the latest OS release.. you get it.. for free.. no upgrade costs.. 

I would literally never purchase anything other than Apple as long as I can help it.. 


 

OS X is UNIX based micro kernel and windows is still monolithic.  Microsoft is in the process of making windows more OS X like and you can see it in early previews with Ubunutu running with no perceptible hypervisor.  They quietly released the Ubuntu subsystem about year or so ago.  Eventually they’ll make it the primary kernel and focus most of their efforts on user experience.  You further see this by porting SQL server and their CLR (common language runtime) to Linux the latter removing the need for mono. 

Lastly Mac’s are modestly more than a comparable non-Mac at this point especially in the laptop space.  Mac Pro is a bit pricey.  

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Think I found part of the problem. The heat sink and fan came loose from the processor. I wonder if the cpu can get hot enough to trip with this off during the minute or so during boot or if this is one of multiple issues???

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37 minutes ago, Howard said:

Think I found part of the problem. The heat sink and fan came loose from the processor. I wonder if the cpu can get hot enough to trip with this off during the minute or so during boot or if this is one of multiple issues???

When I was a tech, we used to play a game with old computers destined for the scrap heap.  It was informative too, at least that's what we told our boss.  We'd put our finger on a naked CPU, no heat sink or fan, fire up the mobo and see how long we could tolerate the heat.  It literally took 15 to 30 seconds for a processor to cook, this was before thermal shutdown was built into mobos and CPUs. 

I'm fairly confident you found the problem.

After you remount the heatsink, and the machine successfully makes it through post and looks like it will start up, go into the BIOS and see if there are any POST errors related to thermal shutdown.  Not all mobos support that, but it would be worth looking into.

EDIT:  There are CPU temp monitoring apps you can get for free. They only work after windows has booted.  If you can find the CD for the mobo, the one with all the drivers etc, there may be a CPU temp monitor on that.

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On 7/13/2018 at 2:54 PM, Howard said:

 but I guess I could buy parts from them online if I had a shopping list.  

https://www.newegg.com/ and amazon both usually have very comparable prices to Microcenter. Microcenter's open box discounts are great, and they usually have a nice $30-$50 discount for buying a CPU/motherboard combo. but even still my most recent build i still got my video card from amazon cause it was cheaper.

 

6 minutes ago, Howard said:

Think I found part of the problem. The heat sink and fan came loose from the processor. I wonder if the cpu can get hot enough to trip with this off during the minute or so during boot or if this is one of multiple issues???

To overheat before its finished booting with an SSD? Completely without a cooler? I google'd it and some people say 10 seconds other say 2-3 minutes. Some say they do it and it lasts long enough to boot into BIOS and check settings. What else to consider though, is if it was loose and it did cause overheating especially multiple times then it might have done some damage. I mean shutting down is its fail safe to prevent damage, but if you push its limits... I had a similar experience but my problem was my SSD. My pc shut off for seemingly no reason a few times and I would turn it back on until i got a missing boot device error. Then I opened my SSD and saw some ugly burn marks that probably weren't there yet the first time it shut down on me...

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yea they get hot very quickly, especialy with a heat sink not in the right position.  There is a chance that the CPU is still ok. The way you described the booting earlier sounds like it maybe and just hitting its internal thermal sensor and shutting down.  All depends on if the cpu/mobo was designed to shutdown during a thermal event in order to save the CPU.  But you need to get the heatsink cleaned off, the CPU cleaned off and get a new tube of thermal paste and apply it as directed. And then of course the heatsink needs to be reconnected to properly secured over the CPU.   Then cross your fingers and power up :)   Good luck

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Old Athlons with no HSF would go to around 700F in seconds if the HSF was removed during use. I think Toms hardware or hardOCP did a video on that, vs p4 with built in thermal protection. Always wondered how many athlon systems did this exact same thing in shipping...

 

Howard, i would suggest limited use of that pc until you totally clean the heatsink and cpu and apply new thermal compound. I use plastic scrapers and then rubbing alcohol, then use artic silver (5?) thermal compound. Make sure it is not the arctic silver ADHESIVE thermal compound, used for attaching a new heatsink to a device with no latch mechanism. A super thin fine layer is all that is needed, i often use an old credit card or razor edge to evenly spread compound. Quite sure you can get single serving size dispensers, the syringe i have is for someone doing tons of PCs.

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30 minutes ago, Malice4you said:

Quite sure you can get single serving size dispensers, the syringe i have is for someone doing tons of PCs.

Even the single serving size is 3x more than is needed.  My method is to put a small amount on my fingertip and smear it on the CPU, whatever is left over (on my fingertip) gets smeared on the heatsink. Basically the same way you would glue two pieces of wood together.

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I would highly discourage applying the thermal paste with your finger as there are oils on the surface. If the concern is how to apply the thermal paste. One can use a razor blade or buy Artic Silver 5 that already has the compound in a syringe. Another concern is to make sure there are no air pockets that can cause uneven heat transfer to the heat sink.

Regards,

TokenEntry

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46 minutes ago, TokenEntry said:

I would highly discourage applying the thermal paste with your finger as there are oils on the surface. If the concern is how to apply the thermal paste.

I have used that method for, at least, 25 years (I learned to do it that way when I worked at Bell Labs), and I've never once had a problem. 

Can you give an example of how oil on the fingertip has damaged a computer?  Do the oils on fingertips somehow react with the oils in the heatsink compound, aka heatsink grease?

The only way one could encounter a problem spreading by fingertip is if they just finished some gardening and didn't wash their hands and got globs of dirt on the processor, or applied too much and did not spread it evenly resulting in large air pockets.

As long as your hands are clean, and you spread a light, even coating to both the CPU and heat sink, and firmly seat the heatsink, you will not have any problems.  But, if you want to stick a razor blade inside your computer case, where nothing could possibly go wrong, then go for it.

 

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4 minutes ago, Scorpio64 said:

I have used that method for, at least, 25 years (I learned to do it that way when I worked at Bell Labs), and I've never once had a problem. 

Can you give an example of how oil on the fingertip has damaged a computer?  Do the oils on fingertips somehow react with the oils in the heatsink compound, aka heatsink grease?

The only way one could encounter a problem spreading by fingertip is if they just finished some gardening and didn't wash their hands and got globs of dirt on the processor, or applied too much and did not spread it evenly resulting in large air pockets.

As long as your hands are clean, and you spread a light, even coating to both the CPU and heat sink, and firmly seat the heatsink, you will not have any problems.  But, if you want to stick a razor blade inside your computer case, where noting could possibly go wrong, then go for it.

 

I'll ask you to show me where applying thermal paste using your finger is the standard or is good business practice to do so. Go read any posts on gaming forums and see what posters have to say about such a thing. You think having 25 years makes one an expert? There are a lot of bad habits/practices that get picked up at the HelpDesk level due to what was taught to them by others early on in their career paths. If you're gonna work on your computer after gardening and not wash your hands, then expect to see bad results for not having common sense. I'd say 99% of the time you'd be fine with doing something like this. However, if you want to give advice to someone then you should not dismiss possibilities where other scenarios could create an issue.

Also, I would not recommend using a razor blade inside the computer case if you don't take proper precautions like unplugging the PSU. Which is has a higher chance of applying thermal paste more evenly, your finger or a razor blade?

Regards,

TokenEntry

 

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You shouldnt man handle the CPU period if your hands are dirty or oily. However its really a moot point as most thermal paste these days is sold in little injector tubes so in reality you would have zero reason to use your finger.  In fact you dont even need to spread it around with a razor blade or a credit card. Your BB to pea sized blob of thermal paste should be smack in the middle of the CPU and then evenly press straight down on the heatsink and the blob will spread out on its own. Just dont lift the heatsink up off it again and do that over and over again.  You really do not want any air bubbles in the paste.

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