Philadelphia Police Threaten To Kill Open Carrier

[Ray Ray 3,566]

I'm not sure why so many are hating on open carry. If given the chance to carry a firearm, I'd prefer open carry but that's just me. Carry the firearm(S) however you feel comfortable, safely, and effectively and that's it. As for the story with the cop and the guy in Philly open carrying, I really don't care.

[Babaganoosh 192]

Also I think I would OC vs CC sometimes, but mostly because I am lazy and don't want to constantly worry about printing

[DevsAdvocate 112]

2 gays making out in public is no different then 2 straight people who make out in public. Granted I don't like to see either of them... Well unless the 2 chicks are hot.

 

Either way, whether you like it or not, it's still legal right?

[Babaganoosh 192]

Either way, whether you like it or not, it's still legal right?

 

 

Yeah it is legal. However I am not argueing that. You said gays making out is "stupid". I am argueing that point. It's no more or less stupid than a straight couple making out. For the most part they make out because they are into the other person and not because they are trying to prove a point. (Unless it was for a photo op) Just playing er... devils advocate here.

[SSlav 14]

The only issue I have with the OC guy is non-compliance. In this situation you are not doing anything illegal, you first comply and then sort it out. Other than that I am entirely on his side.

[Anselmo 87]

I'm not sure why so many are hating on open carry. If given the chance to carry a firearm, I'd prefer open carry but that's just me. Carry the firearm(S) however you feel comfortable, safely, and effectively and that's it. As for the story with the cop and the guy in Philly open carrying, I really don't care.

 

The hating on OC has nothing to do with tactical reasons. I believe the guy in the story is carrying OC not for tactical reasons but to make a point.

 

Two guys making out in public might be legal but it might cause a ruckus because some people don't accept things so easily. That is the analogy. Just because you can do something doesn't always mean it is a good idea. Remember that soccer mom that open carried? Caused a ruckus with the other soccer moms. "And her lawyer -- Robert Magee -- says that while Pennsylvania requires a permit for a concealed firearm, it doesn't require a license to carry one openly except in Philadelphia."

[67gtonut 847]

I'm not sure why so many are hating on open carry. If given the chance to carry a firearm, I'd prefer open carry but that's just me. Carry the firearm(S) however you feel comfortable, safely, and effectively and that's it. As for the story with the cop and the guy in Philly open carrying, I really don't care.

 

 

I would also prefer to Open Carry..... just more comfortable. But my choice in holster would be much different.

[11b1p 14]

I would also prefer to Open Carry..... just more comfortable. But my choice in holster would be much different.

Ok listened to like 20 seconds of this. OP was looking for trouble. Was arguing with the cop. He got exactly what he wanted.

[Babaganoosh 192]

Ok listened to like 20 seconds of this. OP was looking for trouble. Was arguing with the cop. He got exactly what he wanted.

 

So what if he was argueing with a cop. Legally the guy was doing nothing wrong. The cop was in the wrong, not him. For what its worth I think the guy remained very calm given the situation. Try listening to more than 20 seconds of it. also the guys voice is going to sound like he is yelling because the recorder is on his person.

 

If the cop told you to suck his D would you argue that? Just because a cop says something doesnt make it right.

[PeteF 1,044]

So what if he was looking for trouble. Sometimes the envelope has to be pushed in order to get results or make people aware of things. Just glad that nobody got hurt.

 

 

Agreed 100%,

 

I remember another another trouble maker by the name of Rosa Parks. I guess she was an idiot also.

[hopper 36]

I give the guy alot of credit doing this but i"ll give you four names why the officers acted this way , Sgt Liczbinski , Sgt McDonald , Officer Skerski and Officer Cassaday all killed by a gunman , granted the OC was not in a criminal act and the officers should have known the law but i think we all can understand why the officers reacted the way they did .

[11b1p 14]

I give the guy alot of credit doing this but i"ll give you four names why the officers acted this way , Sgt Liczbinski , Sgt McDonald , Officer Skerski and Officer Cassaday all killed by a gunman , granted the OC was not in a criminal act and the officers should have known the law but i think we all can understand why the officers reacted the way they did .

I've listened to it all now. I don't think anyone involved is completely innocent. The cops are dicks and this guy is out looking for trouble. Nothing good happens when people like this meet.

[SpecialK 193]

Just listened to the whole thing. I would hope for some form of punishment for the officer that did not know the law, but I think firing him would be a little far. He should be punished to the degree that he ends up knowing that acting that way is unacceptable. This way the city retains a cop that is now educated better on how to handle one more situation.

 

This situation in the end became a learning experience for a lot of cops. It is sad that this is how they had to figure out the law they are supposed to uphold, but at very least now they know.

[JC_68Westy 1,024]

Go practice your OC rights out west, ranches, farms, hunting prop, boats , what ever..... Lansdale? NE Philly? It is just provocative, confrontational, dangerous, irresponsible, self-centered and down right stupid.

This is very similar to the argument that anti-CCW/anti-gun people in NJ attempt to use. "NJ is too densely populated to allow people to CCW/have guns"

[SSlav 14]

i"ll give you four names why the officers acted this way , Sgt Liczbinski , Sgt McDonald , Officer Skerski and Officer Cassaday all killed by a gunman , granted the OC was not in a criminal act and the officers should have known the law but i think we all can understand why the officers reacted the way they did .

 

 

Unaemed former Marine shot and killed by an off duty cop in a night club

 

Police kill unarmed Sean Bell and wound several of his unarmed friends

 

Police shoot and kill unarmed Amadou Diallo

 

Transit cop shoots and kills and unarmed man laying handcuffed at his feet.

 

 

Police officer shoots and kills an unarmed drunk driver

 

Unarmed autistic man killed by LAPD

 

And many many other unarmed people all killed by a police officer

 

[sarrcasm]

Following your logic any time I see a police officer I should start shooting first as self defense. After all look at all these people who made the mistake of not having a gun and not shooting at police first.

[/sarcasm]

 

When I pay someone to do something I expect them to be professional and polite. It is clear that these officers were neither.

[Turbofire 2]

The one thing that really annoys me about the OCer is not getting on his knees when told to do so if it wasn't for that I think the officer would of been in a more reasonable mood or at least he would have the high ground. On the other hand I always find it unfair that in any altercation we forgive the officers actions as part of a stress filled adrenaline dump but the civilian with the gun in his face is supposed to be as cool as a cucumber and react with slow yet instantanious precision. At the end the officer mentions they have the right to stop him and check his permit, I'm pretty sure the standard permit check doesn't include guns drawn and a face plant on the sidewalk.

 

 

Hmmm an unwritten ban, sounds alot like NJ. "Sure you have the right but you will be hassled so is it really worth it?" " Since you have acknowledged that you will be hassled if you do it now your just looking to make trouble."

 

I have watched a bunch of these open carry videos and at first like others it seemed to me like just trouble makers, but I've grown to really understand the points they try to make. Forgetting 2a its amazing what a joke 4a has become and how simply invoking it is "being a wiseass", yet another right with "consequences". There's a series of video's about Keene, NH (freekeene.org) and the residents have made some real headway in educating the populace and police.

 

 

Having said all that I'd rather ccw, personally.

[hopper 36]

Unaemed former Marine shot and killed by an off duty cop in a night club

 

Police kill unarmed Sean Bell and wound several of his unarmed friends

 

Police shoot and kill unarmed Amadou Diallo

 

Transit cop shoots and kills and unarmed man laying handcuffed at his feet.

 

 

Police officer shoots and kills an unarmed drunk driver

 

Unarmed autistic man killed by LAPD

 

And many many other unarmed people all killed by a police officer

 

[sarrcasm]

Following your logic any time I see a police officer I should start shooting first as self defense. After all look at all these people who made the mistake of not having a gun and not shooting at police first.

[/sarcasm]

 

When I pay someone to do something I expect them to be professional and polite. It is clear that these officers were neither.

Uh proffesional yes , polite no , Uhh excuse me kind sir, what brings you out on this beautiful day carrying a firearm at your side ???? I believe following your logic would get you killed in a instant !!

[PeteF 1,044]

Uh proffesional yes , polite no , Uhh excuse me kind sir, what brings you out on this beautiful day carrying a firearm at your side ???? I believe following your logic would get you killed in a instant !!

 

Big difference between walking down the road with an obviously holstered gun and waving one around.

 

Situation 1.

Cop sees man waving gun around, cop pulls his own gun and deals with situation.

 

Situation 2.

Cop sees man walking down the street, breaking no laws, with holstered gun, should do nothing, or should be played out exactly as you said "Uhh excuse me kind sir, what brings you out on this beautiful day carrying a firearm at your side?"

[SSlav 14]

Uh proffesional yes , polite no , Uhh excuse me kind sir, what brings you out on this beautiful day carrying a firearm at your side ???? I believe following your logic would get you killed in a instant !!

If you are too chickenshit to politely question someone with a holstered gun walking along the street you have two choices.

 

1. Don't question him. After all it is a free country, isn't it?

2. Pursue a career as a mortgage broker or some other pursuit where your general lack of manhood will not result in civil liberties of others being trampled on.

[Bob B 103]

Let me say up front that I would never OC, but for those that wish to, it is their right (in PA). Most of the responses, on this board, are pretty much what I'd expect from citizens of NJ who have been conditioned to equate guns with evil doings. Before you all jump down my throat, I'm speaking of sub-conciously. I, too, don't think it's a good idea, but one that some people embrace and not necessarily just to make a point. I think that you will also find that most OCer's are aware of the security issues with OC and usually use some type of level i or II secure holster.

 

OK, the main point for my response is the point that most people seem to have missed. The police had no RAS (that's Reasonable Articulable Suspicion - a lesser degree of Probable Cause) to stop this OC in the first place, let alone treat him as they did. He was engaged in a lawful activity and there was no indication of any kind that he was doing something illegal. You can't just stop someone, detain and question them, on a whim (regardless of what Mayor Nutter thinks) - you have to be able to reasonably articulate your suspicion of what he was doing illegally. Since open carrying a gun is legal, in the absence of any wrongdoing, they had no reason to stop him. MWAG callers should be (and in most cases outside of Philly are) asked what the MWAG is doing - if he is simply walking down the street, they are informed that is perfectly legal - end of call, no LE involvement.

 

While we can't reasonably expect LE to know every law, it is clear that there must have been a blatant disregard for the training the Phila PD received specific to this issue. The MPOTEC training update included specifics about this very topic. To take it one step further, because of a previous incident, with this same carrier, the Phila PD issued its own internal memo about the legality of open carry (with an LTCF within Philly). What is even more apalling is that in the amount of time this person was detained (I believe the two You Tube postings totalled more than 30 minutes) the officers on the scene - including supervisors - could find no one that knew the law regarding open carry.

 

While I don't agree with the OC philosophy, I support his choice to do so and give him kudos for having the cajones to stand up for what he believes in, especially in the face of this totally debauched police action.

 

JMHO

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

Exactly right.

 

I don't think he was looking for trouble. I think he was prepared for it. The root cause of the trouble was that the LEO's didn't know the law - none of them. I just hope that this time they are getting the training that they need so that they don't make the same mistake again.

[Bob B 103]

Call me Francis but I think this just gives foundation to enact further gun control laws. Just carry concealed and no one knows unless they need to know. Carry open and the police are going to ask questions. It's common sense. Win the battle; lose the war.

 

Well, what you are saying is that we should not exercise our rights, because if we do, they might be taken away. Well if we don't they will surely be taken away. NJ is proof of that.

[NicePants 58]

While that guy may have handled it badly by not complying, if ignorance of the law is no excuse for civilians, can it be an excuse for LEOs? That's the whole issue here. If that guy sues, he might just win.

[Dan 177]

The OCer may have been looking for trouble, but that is because the Philly PD is so adept at walking into it. If he could OC walking down the street with no problems, we would say he is exercising his rights. If he walks down the street, and the PD stops and harasses him , then he is being a trouble maker?

 

That's like saying that you choose to not speak out about your feelings of the government for fear of govt retribution. If you are afraid of exercising your rights, or choose not to do so for fear of "causing trouble" with the govt (LE), then what good is the right to start with.

 

That being said I'm appalled at how the PD responded to this guy. I also feel the OCer should have complied immediately with the cop's demands. The place to prove the cop wrong is court, and possibly a civil suit, not on the street. If they don't feel like learning their state's laws, and feel people should not be able to open carry... they should move to PRNJ.

 

Rights..use them or loose them.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

At the end the officer mentions they have the right to stop him and check his permit, I'm pretty sure the standard permit check doesn't include guns drawn and a face plant on the sidewalk.

 

 

More ignorance of the law. The police do NOT have the right to stop him for the purpose of checking his permit unless he is suspected of doing something illegal (RAS) - otherwise it is a Terry stop - which Philly seems to think is OK. Of course Philly thinks violating their own state's constitution is OK also. I just love liberal logic - that's an oxymoron if ever there was one.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[Anselmo 87]

My link

 

 

Here is another encounter with Landsdale PD regarding OC. Seems Landsdale knows the laws.

[alowerlevel 77]

My link

 

 

Here is another encounter with Landsdale PD regarding OC. Seems Landsdale knows the laws.

Thats the same guy thats in the first post

[Spartiati 63]

Ok listened to like 20 seconds of this. OP was looking for trouble. Was arguing with the cop. He got exactly what he wanted.

I agree he was probably was looking for this but I don't think it makes him a bad guy. He is exposing a problem. Not all, but a number of LEO's feel they can do anything they want. According to directive 137 all an LEO is permitted to do when someone is OCing in Phily, and there is no indication a crime is being committed, is ask for the OC to show his fire arms license. Not say "Hey Junior what the hell do you think you are doing" and "Get down on you f'n knees or I will kill you". I am sorry but this LEO was way out of line. His first contact with the OC should have been "Excuse me sir may I see your fire arms license" nothing less nothing more. Now having sais that I was clear the LEO didn't know the law but I am tired of people defending LEO's i.e. it's not reasonable to assume an LEO should know all the laws. I find this BS, for a citizen, ignorance of the law is no excuse, and in this case an LEO not knowing how to handle OC is inexcusable. It is also inexcusable that his brother LEO's show up and verbally attack the OC. I understand and fully appreciate tat being an LEO is not easy, but this was LEO 101.

[71ragtopgoat 23]

We have seen this attitude by police displayed many times over and over. Katrina and in the Carolina's after a state of emergency and this incident in PA.Demonstrators at the republican national convention in NYC. The bottom line is Police do not feel or are not trained to understand that they are a servant of the people. Instead they are taught that they are the law,the enforcers the end all and be all of whatever incident they are in. I've seen this in things as minor as traffic accidents and halloween egg throwing.

The OP was definitely looking to document the rumored police harassment of both CCW's and OC"s in Philly. So he trolled and got what he was after. If you hear his response to the officers commands he knew what to come back with and also knew the officer would explode at not being able to make the man jump at his orders.Mind you the Police in cities do difficult work so the Officer you get depends on the call he was on before if he just came off a domestic battery he's not likely to be in the state of mind to recite whatever laws are relevant at that time. He just wants calm and order pronto !!

[cubflyer50 1]

I thinks it a stupid thing to do in Philly, open carry......It comes across as arrogance when someone says 'I don't have to show you my i.d."and is taping the whole encounter. I see this all the time and I think it makes a huge rift between LEO's and CCW holders....just show them the ID!! I don't agree the way the officer handled it as far as his language, etc. but he knows that criminals being intent on doing harm can seem very 'polite' and I'm sure he wants to feel certain he's going home to his family...Myself, when in Philly, I ALWAYS carry concealed!! NO reason to OC. Tell him to get a Crossbreed Supertuck.

[notmetoo 41]

I am still amazed that 2a committed folks still think OC is a good idea in certain areas. This is a form of protest and a full expression on ones rights, and the police are not always the ones that need education. But local granny seeing someone walking down the street strapped is going to call the cops. And that cop is going to question you with little to no compassion for the expression of your rights at that moment BECAUSE he would prefer not to have holes created in him. You have the RIGHT by law to OC, other people have the right to call LEO and report you.

 

Yes these cops acted in a less then copacetic way, but you have a person, strapped, ignoring your commands. These cops dont know if this guy is just expressing his rights, or experiencing some sort of zombie invasion fantasy. Same thing is going to happen with a man with a knife. These guys have no idea what the OC subject is doing. Would a cop in Atlanta, St Louis, San Francisco or Seatle have acted the same way, prob not a impolitely. But that is the beauty of the northeast, our collective ability to be use the F bomb while attempting to be polite.

 

Go practice your OC rights out west, ranches, farms, hunting prop, boats , what ever..... Lansdale? NE Philly? It is just provocative, confrontational, dangerous, irresponsible, self-centered and down right stupid.

Agreed. Unfortunately, there are areas where OC just isn't going to fly. Like you reference, out west and the like OC is more acceptable most people don't even blink. How we get to that point here, I don't know, but flaunting it can cause as much or more negative feelings towards it than positive.

 

BTW, I open carried on a camping trip in Utah last summer - got no funny looks and one comment (positive, actually and it was from a fellow NJ'er).