M&P thumb safety

[Shocker 151]

I'm going to get an M&P for my next purchase but I'm hung up on the thumb safety issue. Its available with and without on the regular (not really interested in the Pro).

 

Some say keep the safety, it would help if a BG takes your gun away from you or if you were (somewhere in America) carrying and you can always leave it off if you so choose...some say forget it, the passive safeties and intelligence are all you need and it might get bumped into safe accidentally...

 

You can also get a safety model and remove the safety later but let's not worry about that.

 

Thoughts?

 

PS, I'd shoot this in IDPA and as I understand it the gun doesn't have to be on safety in the holster since it's a DAO so that's a non-issue.

[mikeyboyeee 66]

MANY people here will tell u NO safety. I personally do not have an issue with one myself. My taurus 709 slim has one and when I am able to carry it, the safety will be on.

 

My xdm compact does not.

[MrP 81]

I'm going to get an M&P for my next purchase but I'm hung up on the thumb safety issue. Its available with and without on the regular (not really interested in the Pro).

 

Some say keep the safety, it would help if a BG takes your gun away from you or if you were (somewhere in America) carrying and you can always leave it off if you so choose...some say forget it, the passive safeties and intelligence are all you need and it might get bumped into safe accidentally...

 

You can also get a safety model and remove the safety later but let's not worry about that.

 

Thoughts?

 

PS, I'd shoot this in IDPA and as I understand it the gun doesn't have to be on safety in the holster since it's a DAO so that's a non-issue.

 

First of all, get interested in the Pro, especially if you like gun games. While hard to come by, most people seem to really like them. If you buy it with the thumb-safety and remove it, it will DQ the gun from IDPA at least at sanctioned matches. Have you used guns with manual safeties before? Go with what you prefer. The retention issue is negligible, taking a class on weapon retention is invaluable. With that said, the number of "gun-grabs" is astronomically low. It's all up to you.

[Shane45 807]

I only have pistols with a manual safety. This stems from being primarily a 1911 guy but even in a crunch and ticker I require a manual safety. Among the normal reasons everyone always states, I just simply feel the need for that mechanical barrier.

[Underdog 1,593]

My personal opinion is for a safety. It is your choice to use or not.

 

I have a couple of Glocks and I would actually prefer that at least one of them had a thumb safety. The manufacturers have taken the backstraps to heart. Why can't they make guns that come with removable/installable safeties on them and give the owner the choice. I just don't want to cut my frame to install it, and because I cannot daily carry it isn't such an issue.

 

For my nightstand gun, I would prefer that it didn't have the safety and that it was ready to go when the magazine was slammed into it. If it was ever needed, I would want it as simple as possible. But, I do have small children and an extra layer would not hurt. What if my safe fails? That second could be so important while one is fidgeting with the magazine and trying to put it in.

 

If it was only for a range gun that would be used in a controlled environment, then it is probably not needed.

 

It really angers me when people say the safety is between your ears. Everone knows that. They then go on to talk about training. And, yes, training is important, but it is not possible or practical in many situations to get enough of it. A safety adds one more level of protection for someone that isn't trained as well as he or she should be.

 

And, to tell you the truth, even if you are trained well, it isn't a bad idea. If I lived in a state in which I could carry on a daily basis, then I would really want the thumb safety installed on the Glock and I would train to use it and make it part of my muscle memory skills. Many will say that with training you don't need one. Many will say that you might need to make a shot and forget to take the safety off. But, I say, that just as being careful and training without it. You can train with it.

 

I would prefer 100% unholstering and reholstering with a safety applied. If I carried, I would also consider a NY Trigger, but i feel hhat that would really be a disadvantage.

 

So, given the option, and considering the use of the gun, I would opt for the safety.

[Old Glock guy 1,127]

I just acquired an M&P 9mm without a safety. My thinking was that since I have a few Glocks, which have no external safety, that I would be comfortable with that arrangement. Plus, to my thinking if I ever faced an HD situation, it would likely be in low light or no light, and I would not want the added burden of trying to figure out whether my safety was on or off. I suppose one could just leave the saftey off all the time, but then what's the point of having it?

[Underdog 1,593]

I just acquired an M&P 9mm without a safety. My thinking was that since I have a few Glocks, which have no external safety, that I would be comfortable with that arrangement. Plus, to my thinking if I ever faced an HD situation, it would likely be in low light or no light, and I would not want the added burden of trying to figure out whether my safety was on or off. I suppose one could just leave the saftey off all the time, but then what's the point of having it?

 

 

There wouldn't be too much point in having it, unless you were going to carry it every day. Then a safety would probably be a welcome addtion.

 

I actually like the thumb safety on a 19ll, but hate the grip safety. I won't get an XD because I don't like grip safeties too much.

[bry@n 195]

I have an mp9 without the safety nor the mag safety. I wouldn't want it any other way.

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

You cant just leave the safety off. Part of my problem with them is that they can be put on by accident or break in the on position at the worst times. Anything mechanical can and will fail. Less devices the better. Its not like with a safety you can all of the sudden point it around unsafely or anything so whats the appeal?

 

Keep you booger hook off the bang switch and it wont go bang!

[Shane45 807]

So whats the likelyhood of a broken safety or accidental engagement vs brain fade / equipment hang /etc etc causing an AD/ND? The manual safety is in my opinion a layer of additional safety against human error which is the more likely scenario in my mind.

 

 

I know of a number of Dept's that abandoned the Glock because of the rash of ND's. I know of 1 officer that took one in the hip because he packed his glock in the glock case loaded and when they packed the trunk, it compressed the case enough to set it off. I know another that had a discharge when a strap/buckle from his vest managed to get in the trigger guard upon reholstering. I know of a couple of ND's in high stress situations (holding suspects at gunpoint) that had ND's when they went to manipulate something with their left hand and had a gross motor skill reflexive response in their right hand. This has also happened for auditory input causing a reflexive responce. All these are fringe examples but all could hae been prevented by a manual safety.

 

An article that discusses the topic. I agree that in most cases its a ND but that underlines my point that human error is the more likely issue.

 

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/729088/posts

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

So whats the likelyhood of a broken safety or accidental engagement vs brain fade / equipment hang /etc etc causing an AD/ND? The manual safety is in my opinion a layer of additional safety against human error which is the more likely scenario in my mind.

 

 

I know of a number of Dept's that abandoned the Glock because of the rash of ND's. I know of 1 officer that took one in the hip because he packed his glock in the glock case loaded and when they packed the trunk, it compressed the case enough to set it off. I know another that had a discharge when a strap/buckle from his vest managed to get in the trigger guard upon reholstering. I know of a couple of ND's in high stress situations (holding suspects at gunpoint) that had ND's when they went to manipulate something with their left hand and had a gross motor skill reflexive response in their right hand. This has also happened for auditory input causing a reflexive responce. All these are fringe examples but all could hae been prevented by a manual safety.

 

An article that discusses the topic. I agree that in most cases its a ND but that underlines my point that human error is the more likely issue.

 

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/729088/posts

 

 

Well.... I wouldnt pack a loaded gun in a case. And if I did, under the assumption that it was unloaded, I wouldnt put the safety on anyways.

 

As for holding suspects at gunpoint... would you do that with the safety on anyways? It would be off, in which case it wont be preventing anything...

[Shocker 151]

Bah, should have made this a poll. But over on S&W forum they did a poll and it was pretty much right down the middle.

 

I never owned a gun with a safety before but my DA/SA Sig has a very heavy DA pull, almost twice the M&P. My revolver is a revolver.

 

First of all, get interested in the Pro, especially if you like gun games.

 

I don't want the 5" barrel, and the 4.25" in the Pro Series only adds night sights and performance sear. I feel I can do better with an Apex kit which is still SSP legal

[Shane45 807]

From what I understand they were on assignment and moving quickly/a lot but the point is the oddball scenario. Yes my safety would be on if the suspects were under my control. For example proned out or grabbing some hood etc etc. But I could fathom the secnario it would be off too. But having a safety gives me the choice.

 

I cant speak for anyone else if there is a concern of forgetting to take off the safety but what I can say for me is that it has never happened to me including many many matches that require the engagement and disengagement of said safety between many transitions of position, manipulating doors or retrieving simulated downed team mates, or retrieving the psitol from drawers, safes and tables as well.

[Krdshrk 3,877]

FYI: M&9 Pro 9mm is for sale on the S&W forums (requires login):

http://smith-wessonforum.com/guns-sale-trade/210176-wts-m-p-9-pro.html#post136128628

[rauchman 3]

I have 2 M&P's that I bought used at the Bullet Hole. Both have the mag safety and no thumb safety. I would prefer that they both had the thumbsafety and no mag safety. Unfortunately, as I understand it, S&W does not sell the parts to convert to the thumb safety. It was explained to me by a S&W CS rep, that the serial #'s on the M&P's contain info as to how the pistol is outfitted (what safety's they have) and to change the safety mechanism's on the pistols would make S&W vulnerable to liability issues.

 

Sorry, I digress. Like I said, I would prefer the thumb safety. One of the chief reasons being that the M&P triggers can be made amazingly sweet, and also very light. Having a TS, would give me peace of mind w/ the light trigger. If you're going to keep the trigger stock at the 6+lb weight, it won't be as much of a factor. But with a worked trigger, to me it's akin to having a slicked 1911 trigger w/out a TS. Dangerous. Secondly, the TS would act as a shelf for your thumb when shooting and possibly provide more support to your grip when shooting. Also, to actuate the TS seems so natural. If you practice your grip to always have your thumb laying on the safety, I don't see the issue since you would automatically have your thumb positioned to snick the safety off.

 

BTW, I've experienced a AD/ND w/a G22 some years ago and it scared the living doo-doo out of me. Fortunately, no one was injured, but it's a mistake I go out of my way to not happen again.

 

I know you said that the fact that you can remove the TS won't factor into your decision, but I do believe it is relevant. You can always remove the TS, you can't add it later.

[diamondd817 827]

Even though there not as popular any more a gun with a DA/SA action is a nice compromise. Most complain about the heavy, long pull first shot of the DA but its acts as a great safety. Just like a DA revolver, you can't pull that trigger by accident, you definitely will be aware that your pulling it. This is one reason I like my PX4's. I have the type g that have no manual safety but they do have a decocker. With a type f you have the manual safety and could leave it off and still have the safety of the first DA pull.

 

In the army you are issued the Beretta M9. It has a manual safety. You are trained to carry with the safety on and to disengage it as you draw. After enough times practicing this it will become a natural response.

[bry@n 195]

Even though there not as popular any more a gun with a DA/SA action is a nice compromise. Most complain about the heavy, long pull first shot of the DA but its acts as a great safety. Just like a DA revolver, you can't pull that trigger by accident, you definitely will be aware that your pulling it. This is one reason I like my PX4's. I have the type g that have no manual safety but they do have a decocker. With a type f you have the manual safety and could leave it off and still have the safety of the first DA pull.

 

In the army you are issued the Beretta M9. It has a manual safety. You are trained to carry with the safety on and to disengage it as you draw. After enough times practicing this it will become a natural response.

 

I agree. I like the da/sa guuns but noot for comp's.

[Jon 264]

I don't like manual safeties on anything other than a light SAO trigger.

[djg0770 481]

I know of a number of Dept's that abandoned the Glock because of the rash of ND's. I know of 1 officer that took one in the hip because he packed his glock in the glock case loaded and when they packed the trunk, it compressed the case enough to set it off. I know another that had a discharge when a strap/buckle from his vest managed to get in the trigger guard upon reholstering. I know of a couple of ND's in high stress situations (holding suspects at gunpoint) that had ND's when they went to manipulate something with their left hand and had a gross motor skill reflexive response in their right hand. This has also happened for auditory input causing a reflexive responce. All these are fringe examples but all could hae been prevented by a manual safety.

 

Cops for decades had no safeties without this "rash" of ND's...

[Shane45 807]

Yeah because for decades they had revolvers with 200lb triggers

[raz-0 1,259]

For the M&P I'd go with no thumb safety. Not because I have anything against them, but because I find the implementation of it on the M&P to have put the wrong shaped lever in the wrong place.

[RecessedFilter 222]

I'm planning to get an M&P 9 in the near future and I will assure you I will be getting the model with no safety and no mag safety.

[Underdog 1,593]

Get a Glock, instead, and have a cominolli safety installed and call it a day. Heck, get the Siderlock and a NY Trigger installed, too.

 

If I wanted an M&P and the safety was available, I would get it. especially if it is easy to remove/disable. Does anybody know what this requires?

 

Seriously, I like thumb safeties. And, with the proper training you can handle the safety, just as you can get away without it with the proper training. It shouldn't make a hill of beans with todays modern firearms in terms of reliability. I would check out the ergonomics with it, though. Can you manipulate it easily?

 

If you don't want the firearm to fire, there should be a setting on it to do this that would allow you to reholster with some relief, etc.

 

I will say that I don't like grip safeties, though. I love the 1911, but would probably not choose it as my first choice to carry it for that reason. Additionally, I really like the Glock, but I will always feel it is lacking in perfection because it doesn't have the OPTION of a factory safety. If I could checkout a thumb safety installed on the Glock and it felt right and it worked for my hand and looked OK, I would get one installed tomorrow. If I could carry it, I would get it installed anyway. As a range toy and a nightstand gun, it doesn't matter as much. And, although the market might be smaller, there would be plenty of people that would probably buy it with the safety if I chose to sell it (Although, I will never sell my G19).

 

Take the advice above and get the safety if you are planning on installing the hair trigger.

[Jon 264]

If you don't want the firearm to fire, there should be a setting on it to do this that would allow you to holster with relief, etc.

 

 

I call this using my head and keeping my finger off the bang switch.

[Underdog 1,593]

I call this using my head and keeping my finger off the bang switch.

 

 

It is not about that, because you have to consiously know if you put the safety on or not. You are still using your head. It isn't about whether or not you put your finger on the trigger. You should train not to do that, anyway.

 

The thing is that if something unusual happens and something catches that trigger, not your finger which should not be there, that would be a bad thing to occur.

 

With a thumb safety, you still have to have the primary safety installed, your head. And, many of us are not able to train as much as we want, and even though we practice the rules of owning a handgun, that safety would be better than not having it.

 

If you don't feel you need one, that is fine with me. But let me have the option.

[djg0770 481]

If you don't feel you need one, that is fine with me. But let me have the option.

 

No damnit! NO SAFETY FOR YOU!! NEXT!

 

<----(evolving from Grammar Nazi to Safety Nazi)

[Shocker 151]

Get a Glock

 

No way

 

if it is easy to remove/disable. Does anybody know what this requires?

 

Tap it out with a punch, as i understand. Factory blanks are readily available to fill the hole that it leaves behind.

[Shocker 151]

I'm going with no safety, with the duty/carry trigger kit, about 5#.

 

I appreciate all the input. I actually agree with most of the folks recommending the safety for some circumstances but the fact is that I won't be carrying, I won't be arresting anybody, and at home it will be secured.

[Shane45 807]

To use police departments as the litmus paper test the simple data would suggest that there is inherrently less safety for a semiauto without a manual safty. It is documented many times over that PD's that have switched from a semi with a safety to one without has experienced an increase in AD/ND's. So much so that some dept's scrapped them and went back. Does that mean everyone will turn into a safety hazard with a Sig, Glock or M&P with no external safety. Certainly not BUT the above would suggest that if you give X amount of people (ALL of whome recieved some form of training) pistols with no external safty the ND/AD's do increase! Conversely the only reports I have come across for a failure to disengage the safety and fire has been when the bad guy got ahold of the weapon during the struggle and didnt know to disengage the safty to shoot the good guy.

[diamondd817 827]

No way

 

 

 

 

 

Haha. That's what I used to say about Glocks. Now I own 3. There is good reason you see more Glocks than any other gun, they are a superior pistol.

 

On another note. I don't think I would ever conceal carry a M&P. I have a M&P 40C and it is a great gun. But the stock trigger is really light. It can be pulled very easily, much easier than any of my Glocks. It almost feel like a match grade trigger. Hey, that's what you want for competitions anyway, so, good choice.