Probably gonna be put on walking post for sticking up for fellow gun enthusiast..

[TacGuy911 25]

I may be taking a risk here with my opinion but here it goes. As a fellow LEO what I would have done is after subject was loaded into the bus I would have taken the homeowner aside and verified the firearm to be legal. While I am not looking to jam a fellow gun owner up I will surely cover my own a** since the firearm was mentioned on a taped line. If he has his papers great. If not I would check back at HQ. I find, with me anyway, it's when I don't check is when it comes back and bites me in the a**.

 

I understand the want to cover your a**.. There is no real reason to HAVE to check.. Homeowner committed no crime and is not suspected of committing a crime so there is no real need to check.. If you wanted to you could ask and if the homeowner is willing to show paperwork then so be it.. But if they choose not to the case ends there.. They are not required to show anything.. But the fact that the Sgt. DEMANDED to see paperwork is what got me.. And like I said.. There was no real reason to need to see it.. There was no suspicion of a crime being committed by the homeowner or any resident of the home.. You can always ask.. Just understand that it is not "required" that they show anything.. But hey.. In this case you have the pedigree for the report so if it concerns you that much you can always do a quick run through the system back at the station.. But again.. My question is Why?

[Ray Ray 3,566]

I may be taking a risk here with my opinion but here it goes. As a fellow LEO what I would have done is after subject was loaded into the bus I would have taken the homeowner aside and verified the firearm to be legal. While I am not looking to jam a fellow gun owner up I will surely cover my own a** since the firearm was mentioned on a taped line. If he has his papers great. If not I would check back at HQ. I find, with me anyway, it's when I don't check is when it comes back and bites me in the a**.

 

So covering your @$$ means violating someone else's rights? Rethink that Joe

[Malsua 1,422]

While I am not looking to jam a fellow gun owner up I will surely cover my own a** since the firearm was mentioned on a taped line.

 

This is exactly the problem. There should be repercussions for illegal overreach. For you, there is no downside to violating his rights. There should be. Do you genuinely think anyone would even get a reprimand if the guy had an illegal gun and two weeks later he robbed the qwiki-mart? No, there would be an article in the paper and an "internal investigation" that would amount to nothing and that would be the end of it.

 

In this case, a man in his home, not suspected of any crime is _ENTIRELY_ within his rights to refuse your requests. You know and I know that wouldn't be good enough. You see, for most LEOs it isn't a request, it's a demand. If he continued to defy, you'd take him to the station and jam him up. There is no downside for you. If the man was a billionaire, you wouldn't even consider it because he'd sue you, your chief, your department, your mayor, your town, your dog and probably get half of it. Essentially, the regular guy is relying on your benevolence and since there's no positive gain in granting it, it is in quite short supply.

[Luke_WO 11]

However you want to go about "verifying the legality" of the gun - whether you do it discretely after the issue has been resolved, or if you make a huge scene in front of everyone - it's unnecessary and invasive either way.

 

And like the OP said, the fact that the sergeant DEMANDED to see the paperwork is what's really disturbing.

[BlueLineFish 615]

All I am saying is to ask the homeowner. If he protests then it's over. I will not MAKE him. I will search vehicles I pull over if I believe I have a reason to. I in no way look to violate people's rights but if I ask and you agree then it's on you. I am allowed to ask. I am not forcing anything on anybody. All it is is a mere inquiry. If you want to think I am part of the problem then so be it. I do not agree with the Sgt demanding it. There are a lot of different ways to handle a call. I in no way feel the op was wrong for doing what he did.

[TacGuy911 25]

However you want to go about "verifying the legality" of the gun - whether you do it discretely after the issue has been resolved, or if you make a huge scene in front of everyone - it's unnecessary and invasive either way.

 

And like the OP said, the fact that the sergeant DEMANDED to see the paperwork is what's really disturbing.

 

Just to make sure we are on same page.. Sgt. didn't demand it to the homeowner.. It was demanded of me to go check.. Homeowner just happened to overhear the convo and to avoid any issues just went and got the paperwork..

[Luke_WO 11]

Just to make sure we are on same page.. Sgt. didn't demand it to the homeowner.. It was demanded of me to go check.. Homeowner just happened to overhear the convo and to avoid any issues just went and got the paperwork..

 

Appreciate the clarification. But at the end of the day, ordering the homeowner to produce the paperwork and ordering you to take care of it yourself amounts to the same thing, as far as I'm concerned. Good on you for trying to take a stand.

[TacGuy911 25]

All I am saying is to ask the homeowner. If he protests then it's over. I will not MAKE him. I will search vehicles I pull over if I believe I have a reason to. I in no way look to violate people's rights but if I ask and you agree then it's on you. I am allowed to ask. I am not forcing anything on anybody. All it is is a mere inquiry. If you want to think I am part of the problem then so be it. I do not agree with the Sgt demanding it. There are a lot of different ways to handle a call. I in no way feel the op was wrong for doing what he did.

 

You are correct.. There is not problem in asking.. As long as you are prepared for the homeowner to say no and be able to walk away.. But again.. Start demanding and you are looking at lawsuits and going down a road you don't want to get in.. But as i stated.. Criminals aren't going to tell the police that they have a gun.. The guy was not committing a crime and was inside his house.. The gun was already placed back into the lock box by the time there was police/homeowner contact.. The point is that there is no "need" to check.. But as you stated.. You can always ask.. But you know there is that 1 cop on the job that will get that no response and it turns into a "What do you have to hide.. Get your paperwork.. No? Lock him up for obstructing".. There is always that 1 cop that just doesn't know..

[Shane45 807]

Blue line, your line of thinking is as problematic as the Sarge's. Forget about the "mis"interpretation of the law for a second. If the PD would LIKE to be informed they are responding to an armed house, you better learn not to penalise the public for doing you a courtesy..... Keep turning the eye on the innocent homeowner who had no obligation to inform anyone and you will cause people to stop informing you. Wouldnt you rather be informed? Understand I do appreciate the tangle for LEO, sworn to uphold the constitution and then asked to break that vow on a reguler basis from what can turn out to be anti gun brass. But from a common sense perspective of LEO safety, it still doesnt make sense.....

[BlueLineFish 615]

Most of the time its the bosses because they don't have a clue. We also know perps do very stupid things.myour homeowner does sound like a responsible guy so I would ask but not really press the issue. I always ask whatever I want. It's subject choice to answer. If they have to answer but don't the I will charge obstructing. If they don't have to answer then good for them for knowing the laws. I am amazed at how quick people are to bash me. Oh well.

[KpdPipes 388]

This is exactly the problem. There should be repercussions for illegal overreach. For you, there is no downside to violating his rights. There should be. Do you genuinely think anyone would even get a reprimand if the guy had an illegal gun and two weeks later he robbed the qwiki-mart? No, there would be an article in the paper and an "internal investigation" that would amount to nothing and that would be the end of it.

 

In this case, a man in his home, not suspected of any crime is _ENTIRELY_ within his rights to refuse your requests. You know and I know that wouldn't be good enough. You see, for most LEOs it isn't a request, it's a demand. If he continued to defy, you'd take him to the station and jam him up. There is no downside for you. If the man was a billionaire, you wouldn't even consider it because he'd sue you, your chief, your department, your mayor, your town, your dog and probably get half of it. Essentially, the regular guy is relying on your benevolence and since there's no positive gain in granting it, it is in quite short supply.

Well mal once again thank you for your years of service in LE and your first-hand experiences in how "It really is".

[Shane45 807]

BLF, Im not bashing, I save that for LE's that say only cops and Mil should have guns . Im just pointing out that punishing good intentions will lead to more of the us/them seperation of LE and the comunity which is counterproductive to you going into a situation better informed.

[SpecialK 193]

Most of the time its the bosses because they don't have a clue. We also know perps do very stupid things.myour homeowner does sound like a responsible guy so I would ask but not really press the issue. I always ask whatever I want. It's subject choice to answer. If they have to answer but don't the I will charge obstructing. If they don't have to answer then good for them for knowing the laws. I am amazed at how quick people are to bash me. Oh well.

 

And for someone who moved here legally with guns? I have no paper work on me or at your HQ! What then? You just going to take my word on it that I moved here with them and didn't acquire them illegally after I got here???? You have no right to ask for the papers in the first place. You are in uniform, you have a badge, you are not to investigate people for no reason!

[Malsua 1,422]

Well mal once again thank you for your years of service in LE and your first-hand experiences in how "It really is".

 

Does a Gazelle need to be a lion to know he's being eaten by one?

[BlueLineFish 615]

And for someone who moved here legally with guns? I have no paper work on me or at your HQ! What then? You just going to take my word on it that I moved here with them and didn't acquire them illegally after I got here???? You have no right to ask for the papers in the first place. You are in uniform, you have a badge, you are not to investigate people for no reason!

 

If I ask and you decide to tell me that answer. Based on the totality of the circumstances I will take you at your word. I have that discretion. Its seems that I am now stereotyped as the cop who could care less about the law and I do what I want because i have a badge. You couldn't be more wrong. I am not looking for your approval on how I do my job because most of you have no idea what the job is like to be on. You want to attack my credibility and i have a major problem with that. Sorry I have an opinion different than the norm but I am allowed to ask what I want when I want. Your choice to answer or not. Think what you want about me. I don't need your approval. OP... stay safe out there and keep doing what you feel is right. I respect the hell out of that. All my other LEO's stay safe as well.

 

After seeing what I am dealing with on this board and how quickly people are attacked for a difference of opinion. How quickly my credibility has come into question from strangers really breeds a lot of resentment for this forum. Looks like i will be spending far less time on here, if at all now, from now on. It's been fun.

[halbautomatisch 60]

OP, we need more cops like you.

 

Your sgt. has been drinking the NJ cool-aide for too long.

[njpilot 671]

BLF, I think if you stepped back and put yourself in the shoes of a non-LEO gun owner in NJ, you may understand the attitude of most here a little better.

 

None of us like being treated like a criminal. None of us likes being considered guilty until proven innocent.

 

Forget about the gun culture and the gun mentality of legislators and some LE in NJ.

 

If you were LEO in PA, VA, FL, TX, AZ or any of the other free, pro-gun states, do you think you would still feel the need to ask the homeowner?

 

Not a bash, just asking.

 

+1 to TacGuy911

[TacGuy911 25]

BLF, Im not bashing, I save that for LE's that say only cops and Mil should have guns .

 

The great governor feels this same way.. thats why he leads by example and doesn't carry.. He just pays, i mean we pay, for his armed police escort.. But don't worry.. The state of NJ is safe...

[Old School 611]

If I ask and you decide to tell me that answer. Based on the totality of the circumstances I will take you at your word. I have that discretion. Its seems that I am now stereotyped as the cop who could care less about the law and I do what I want because i have a badge. You couldn't be more wrong. I am not looking for your approval on how I do my job because most of you have no idea what the job is like to be on. You want to attack my credibility and i have a major problem with that. Sorry I have an opinion different than the norm but I am allowed to ask what I want when I want. Your choice to answer or not. Think what you want about me. I don't need your approval. OP... stay safe out there and keep doing what you feel is right. I respect the hell out of that. All my other LEO's stay safe as well.

 

After seeing what I am dealing with on this board and how quickly people are attacked for a difference of opinion. How quickly my credibility has come into question from strangers really breeds a lot of resentment for this forum. Looks like i will be spending far less time on here, if at all now, from now on. It's been fun.

 

Don't be so thin skinned. You're working and doing a job. Leave it at that. I'm sure it's tough determining the citizens from the dirt bags. Just respect the citizens. Remember ""protect and serve"?

 

You're a civilian like the rest of us. Act like it!

 

Hang in with us and stay around.

[johnoutdoors 10]

Big thumbs up to you TacGuy911!!!

 

BLF, allow me to change the point of view. I drive a UPS truck. I have to follow very strict federal laws dealing with the contents of packages (ie hazmats). I am within guidlines asking the contents of any package that I wish on either end, delivery or pick up. If I pick up a Victoria's Secret package at a customers house and ask the contents, I'm going to get my head handed to me by both the customer and my boss. If I ask the same question of a pick up at the dock of a manufacturing company, I get a clear concise answer. The difference is context, with it the questions are received well and answered promptly. Without it, I am a jerk and a perv. To many nonLEO citizens being asked extra questions that don't seem to pertain to the situation, or that seem aimed at making me the bad guy at a time when I called for help, causes a shift in attitude for the worse.

[SpecialK 193]

Agreed that education would be better, sorry for the out burst. I still am upset that someone that from my understanding who has had to take an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution can feel just fine ignoring that oath to make things easier or safer for themselves. Am I mistaken that NJ police have to take an oath to graduate from the academy they have to take an oath that includes a pledge to uphold and defend the Constitution? Not saying if they don't have to that it makes it any better, but it makes it so much worse if they have.

[Shane45 807]

Guys, may I suggest educating and civil debate. In the end I would rather convince BLF of the merits of our position rather than convince him the gun owning public is nothing but tude!

[Jon 264]

Guys, may I suggest educating and civil debate. In the end I would rather convince BLF of the merits of our position rather than convince him the gun owning public is nothing but tude!

 

+1. No need for the personal attacks, Kev.

[SpecialK 193]

Agreed that education would be better, sorry for the out burst. I still am upset that someone that from my understanding who has had to take an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution can feel just fine ignoring that oath to make things easier or safer for themselves. Am I mistaken that NJ police have to take an oath to graduate from the academy they have to take an oath that includes a pledge to uphold and defend the Constitution? Not saying if they don't have to that it makes it any better, but it makes it so much worse if they have.

[Duppie 73]

If I ask and you decide to tell me that answer. Based on the totality of the circumstances I will take you at your word. I have that discretion. Its seems that I am now stereotyped as the cop who could care less about the law and I do what I want because i have a badge. You couldn't be more wrong. I am not looking for your approval on how I do my job because most of you have no idea what the job is like to be on. You want to attack my credibility and i have a major problem with that. Sorry I have an opinion different than the norm but I am allowed to ask what I want when I want. Your choice to answer or not. Think what you want about me. I don't need your approval. OP... stay safe out there and keep doing what you feel is right. I respect the hell out of that. All my other LEO's stay safe as well.

 

After seeing what I am dealing with on this board and how quickly people are attacked for a difference of opinion. How quickly my credibility has come into question from strangers really breeds a lot of resentment for this forum. Looks like i will be spending far less time on here, if at all now, from now on. It's been fun.

You are quite correct....you don't need our approval as you've pointed out.. twice. But to effectively do your job you do need and want the trust and respect of the law abiding folks you have sworn to protect and serve.Unfortunately your post, perhaps erroneously ,only succeeded in reinforcing the notion that some cops only want to do their 20 and cover their asses sacrificing our basic rights in the process. I am afraid of you but maybe that's the way you want it. Stay safe.

[Anselmo 87]

A cop asking to see your papers is not violating anyone's rights. It's only if the cop demands to see your papers that your rights are violated. It's just that we are drilled to conform and comply with an officer's requests in the belief that they wouldn't ask us if it wasn't legal. The savvy criminals know their rights and aren't afraid to stand up to cop's request. The honest people not so much.

[alec.mc 180]

A cop asking to see your papers is not violating anyone's rights. It's only if the cop demands to see your papers that your rights are violated. It's just that we are drilled to conform and comply with an officer's requests in the belief that they wouldn't ask us if it wasn't legal. The savvy criminals know their rights and aren't afraid to stand up to cop's request. The honest people not so much.

 

Sort of reminds me of the story of being pulled over in your car, cop asks to search your car. You decline, Simply by saying ' No ' is probable cause and your vehicle is being searched regardless.

 

( dont know how much fact is in this, but i've heard it multiple times )

[TacGuy911 25]

Sort of reminds me of the story of being pulled over in your car, cop asks to search your car. You decline, Simply by saying ' No ' is probable cause and your vehicle is being searched regardless.

 

( dont know how much fact is in this, but i've heard it multiple times )

 

Cops will ask for consent first.. If you say no and they have enough pc they will get a warrant and search.. The consent is just the easier route.. If you say no and they search anyway, anything that is found goes out the window... Also depends on the circumstances.. Police can search without warrant or consent but in limited capacities..

[Anselmo 87]

Sort of reminds me of the story of being pulled over in your car, cop asks to search your car. You decline, Simply by saying ' No ' is probable cause and your vehicle is being searched regardless.

 

( dont know how much fact is in this, but i've heard it multiple times )

 

I think that is just tin hat rhetoric. You can't establish PC after the request. The police need PC before the request. That said, just respectfully and politely decline.

[SpacemanFry 51]

If I ask and you decide to tell me that answer. Based on the totality of the circumstances I will take you at your word. I have that discretion. Its seems that I am now stereotyped as the cop who could care less about the law and I do what I want because i have a badge. You couldn't be more wrong. I am not looking for your approval on how I do my job because most of you have no idea what the job is like to be on. You want to attack my credibility and i have a major problem with that. Sorry I have an opinion different than the norm but I am allowed to ask what I want when I want. Your choice to answer or not. Think what you want about me. I don't need your approval. OP... stay safe out there and keep doing what you feel is right. I respect the hell out of that. All my other LEO's stay safe as well.

 

After seeing what I am dealing with on this board and how quickly people are attacked for a difference of opinion. How quickly my credibility has come into question from strangers really breeds a lot of resentment for this forum. Looks like i will be spending far less time on here, if at all now, from now on. It's been fun.

 

LOL, throw tantrum much?