Can I ask a question - Gun Show Loophole

[vladtepes 1,060]

Actually let me ask you this....... Being from NJ, when you do a FTF transfer, you ask for a FID and DL and P2P if necessary. You are telling me you would sell a gun to someone who doesn't have that?? I will venture a guess and say no b/c that person might be a prohibited. That helped keep that gun out of his hands. So yes it does work it just isn't fool proof.

 

correct.. MANY other states do not have those rules... and there is no way to tell if they can legally even own a gun..

[brocglock23 4]

correct.. MANY other states do not have those rules... and there is no way to tell if they can legally even own a gun..

that's why I believe NJ's system isn't that terrible, just the restrictions on us are. If PA had our FID system and NJ had PA's gun laws, things wouldn't be so bad if you ask me.

[Qel Hoth 33]

Fully agree with that. I work in Camden, Trenton, Plainfield and the bad areas of NJ. That's why I said it's feel good legislation and if a criminal wants it bad enough they will find a way. I don't think it is a horrible system though, Do our laws suck, yes. Does the system hurt someone who is not a prohibited person, No. So no, Not delusional. This system does make it a little harder for criminals. Not impossible.

 

The NJ laws do harm people who are not prohibited persons. If someone who has no mental health history and no criminal convictions decides they want to buy their first gun TODAY, for whatever reason, they cannot. If someone who loses (theft, fire, etc) their firearms, they cannot replace handguns unless they have permits on hand, and they too are not damaged. If one's FID is in the house and the house burns, one cannot purchase any firearms until the FID is replaced.

 

By requiring someone to first acquire a permit or ID card in order to buy firearms, and this permit or card is not issued on the spot, the state has created a system which may well deprive lawful, sane citizens of the tools they wish to use for self defense. 30 days (more like 2+ months in most towns) is simply too long for the state to deny you what you need to defend yourself and your family.

[vladtepes 1,060]

The NJ laws do harm people who are not prohibited persons. If someone who has no mental health history and no criminal convictions decides they want to buy their first gun TODAY, for whatever reason, they cannot. If someone who loses (theft, fire, etc) their firearms, they cannot replace handguns unless they have permits on hand, and they too are not damaged. If one's FID is in the house and the house burns, one cannot purchase any firearms until the FID is replaced.

 

By requiring someone to first acquire a permit or ID card in order to buy firearms, and this permit or card is not issued on the spot, the state has created a system which may well deprive lawful, sane citizens of the tools they wish to use for self defense. 30 days (more like 2+ months in most towns) is simply too long for the state to deny you what you need to defend yourself and your family.

 

I don't see the need for any goofy card..

 

just keep it simple and do the background check..

[Spartiati 63]

 

 

It is. And thank you. But antis are people that are not willing to listen, learn, or honor. Many of the people here are definitely not antis, just people that have lived in a bubble and don't know, or are still figuring out, how the other 250 million people in this country live and how everybody lived just fine before the BRADY BILL (FFL background checks started only about 15 years ago), or that most gun sales don't involve background checks and the only difference is that Liberty and Justice are denied.

 

Sounds like in your mind the very act of declaring someone a prohibited person is not constitutional? If you disagree then how do you enforce it without a background check? Just trying to understand.

[Qel Hoth 33]

Sounds like in your mind the very act of declaring someone a prohibited person is not constitutional? If you disagree then how do you enforce it without a background check? Just trying to understand.

 

Honestly, there is a valid constitutional argument for that very statement. What is to stop the government from saying that anyone who disagrees with the government is now a prohibited person? Oh, wait... they already did.

 

This is just the thing that the 2A was designed to prevent. It isn't about self defense, and it certainly isn't about hunting, it's sole purpose is to provide a meaningful way to prevent the government from forcing it will upon the people.

[brocglock23 4]

The NJ laws do harm people who are not prohibited persons. If someone who has no mental health history and no criminal convictions decides they want to buy their first gun TODAY, for whatever reason, they cannot. If someone who loses (theft, fire, etc) their firearms, they cannot replace handguns unless they have permits on hand, and they too are not damaged. If one's FID is in the house and the house burns, one cannot purchase any firearms until the FID is replaced.

 

By requiring someone to first acquire a permit or ID card in order to buy firearms, and this permit or card is not issued on the spot, the state has created a system which may well deprive lawful, sane citizens of the tools they wish to use for self defense. 30 days (more like 2+ months in most towns) is simply too long for the state to deny you what you need to defend yourself and your family.

You're talking laws while I'm talking system. Is the law you need a permit stupid, yeah. I think the "goofy card" and NICS should do the job. I like the idea of the card but I don't like how long it takes. If there was a way that you could go get a new one at the local PD the same day I wouldn't mind the card either.

[brocglock23 4]

This is just a hypothetical... One day you wake up and decide you want a gun. You go to the police station, Get your morphotrac right then and there, you get your picture taken and they give you a card. Go buy whatever you want, 20 handguns, 14 AK's, 17 AR's and a few shotguns. you go to pay and they say okay Mr. Smith that will be $40K plus $18 for the NICS check. does that sound so terrible b/c I think that would be a fantastic idea. No crazy permits, You know who is not prohibited and you don't even need a matching DL b/c your picture is on it.

[johnp 45]

This is just a hypothetical... One day you wake up and decide you want a gun. You go to the police station, Get your morphotrac right then and there, you get your picture taken and they give you a card. Go buy whatever you want, 20 handguns, 14 AK's, 17 AR's and a few shotguns. you go to pay and they say okay Mr. Smith that will be $40K plus $18 for the NICS check. does that sound so terrible b/c I think that would be a fantastic idea. No crazy permits, You know who is not prohibited and you don't even need a matching DL b/c your picture is on it.

 

The FPID card does nothing to insure that the buyer isn't prohibited, in your scenario. The NICS check is what would decide who is or isn't prohibited.

[H.M. Murdock 0]

I can't believe I'm going to say this but I have a beautiful 2 year old daughter and another baby on the way. If it helped to make the world a better place by doing background checks I'd be all for it. Minus the stupid limiting laws on firearms I think NJ actually has a pretty decent system. But then again it is also just "feel good" legislation b/c if someone wants something bad enough they will get it.

 

I'm trying to wrap my head around what part of NJ's "system" is pretty decent. My ability to purchase a new handgun is effectively blocked at the municipal level for an arbitrary period of time. In a process that informs my employer that I am purchasing a gun. Then I am strictly limited to the quantity of handguns I can purchase. Then I have to submit to a state background check that is essentially the federal background check plus an unreasonable fee and a restricted schedule. Then my handgun is automatically registered with the municipality and the state police. Then when I finally take possession of the handgun it is illegal to possess in all but a set of narrowly definited circumstances in which stopping to take a leak on the way to the range could be deemed unreasonable and put me in jail for the rest of my life. Even my ability to obtain a non-resident license in some other states is hindered because the state of NJ is shall issue when it is actually no issue.

[brocglock23 4]

I'm trying to wrap my head around what part of NJ's "system" is pretty decent. My ability to purchase a new handgun is effectively blocked at the municipal level for an arbitrary period of time. In a process that informs my employer that I am purchasing a gun. Then I am strictly limited to the quantity of handguns I can purchase. Then I have to submit to a state background check that is essentially the federal background check plus an unreasonable fee and a restricted schedule. Then my handgun is automatically registered with the municipality and the state police. Then when I finally take possession of the handgun it is illegal to possess in all but a set of narrowly definited circumstances in which stopping to take a leak on the way to the range could be deemed unreasonable and put me in jail for the rest of my life. Even my ability to obtain a non-resident license in some other states is hindered because the state of NJ is shall issue when it is actually no issue.

I am in agreement with that the delay with the permits is a joke. I don't think you should be limited on handgun purchases however I do agree with the mental health background check and the finger printing. I think even that needs to fixed with how long it takes. It should be like going to the DMV, in and out. And the transportation laws are insane. along with the conceal carry permits. or lack there of issuing.

The FPID card does nothing to insure that the buyer isn't prohibited, in your scenario. The NICS check is what would decide who is or isn't prohibited.

The FID card would be the confirmation that a mental health background check was done at some point. I know that my theory isn't perfect and i'm sure has blind spots but I'm just honestly trying to think of the anti-gunners point of view and think of a way to compromise but not put stronger regulations on certain guns.

[Josh S 0]

Can I ask a question BrocGlock23? What DMV do you go to, I am never in and out of those horrid places.

[vladtepes 1,060]

I'm in pa now... But DMV in south jersey was always pretty fast...

[brocglock23 4]

I've had to do business in Turnersville, Runnemede and West Deptford. Over the past 10 years these locations haven't been too bad. Now when I got my license in Deptford ( doesn't exist anymore) 13 years ago that was terrible.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

Vlad, why don't you bring this "gunshow loop-hole" thing up in the Pennsy gun forum place. And then tell them your a transplant from NJ. I'm sure they'll really like that. Because, lets face it, mipafox is being nice about the argument. They will destroy you on it.

[TK421 2]

Vlad, why don't you bring this "gunshow loop-hole" thing up in the Pennsy gun forum place. And then tell them your a transplant from NJ. I'm sure they'll really like that. Because, lets face it, mipafox is being nice about the argument. They will destroy you on it.

 

[Spartiati 63]

Honestly, there is a valid constitutional argument for that very statement. What is to stop the government from saying that anyone who disagrees with the government is now a prohibited person? Oh, wait... they already did.

 

This is just the thing that the 2A was designed to prevent. It isn't about self defense, and it certainly isn't about hunting, it's sole purpose is to provide a meaningful way to prevent the government from forcing it will upon the people.

 

So how do we prevent felons from walking into a gun store and buying a gun? Is there no way possible then? We are supposed to just live with that? Hope the guy at the gun counter has super powers and can determine based on what the person looks like and what he says not to sell him a gun?

 

Honestly you can make that argument about anything. Even due process isn't perfect: juries can and have been manipulated; judges can and have been manipulated. Yet we still have due process and live with it's limitations. never mentioned anything about hunting, as I am aware of what the 2A was designed to do.

 

Sorry but, aside from people saying: these checks are bad and infringe on rights; NICS is an inconvenience; and don't have this argumat with the PA guys they will destroy you, I have yet to hear a convincing argument in this thread which would compel me to believe that NICS infringes on my civil rights.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

And on this topic, we have a marketplace full of guns that are bought and sold EVERYDAY by our forum members and I'm sure these aren't the same firearms being used in crimes on our streets.

 

I also find it funny that Mr. Vladtepes has offered his services of AK work while living in NJ. And I'm sure he's bought and sold firearms on this forum. Now, has he helped a forum member who was actually a criminal and only wanted him to convert his saiga into a baby killing machine? No.

 

So Vlad, stop the BS. And don't be a hypocrite.

[RxBandit 0]

I started a similar thread and was directed here and have found, i think, the answer to my questions...but a new problem has arrived, and it will probably cause disagreement but as responsible gun owners, shouldn't we want to keep guns away from "bad" people? If the 2a is the reason why we shouldn't have NICS checks and need an FFL for a transfer, why is it that the guy who just go out of jail because he robbed a liquor store at gun point and shot the clerk behind the counter can't legally go purchase a firearm? Isn't that what the NICS check and all the hoops we have to jump through provide?

[Ray Ray 3,566]

I started a similar thread and was directed here and have found, i think, the answer to my questions...but a new problem has arrived, and it will probably cause disagreement but as responsible gun owners, shouldn't we want to keep guns away from "bad" people? If the 2a is the reason why we shouldn't have NICS checks and need an FFL for a transfer, why is it that the guy who just go out of jail because he robbed a liquor store at gun point and shot the clerk behind the counter can't legally go purchase a firearm? Isn't that what the NICS check and all the hoops we have to jump through provide?

 

Criminals steal guns, they don't go to gunshows or to private sales. Stop bumping an already debunked thread.

[JustJoe 0]

I started a similar thread and was directed here and have found, i think, the answer to my questions...but a new problem has arrived, and it will probably cause disagreement but as responsible gun owners, shouldn't we want to keep guns away from "bad" people? If the 2a is the reason why we shouldn't have NICS checks and need an FFL for a transfer, why is it that the guy who just go out of jail because he robbed a liquor store at gun point and shot the clerk behind the counter can't legally go purchase a firearm? Isn't that what the NICS check and all the hoops we have to jump through provide?

 

Suspicion confirmed.

Have a nice day.

[KpdPipes 388]

Can I ask a question BrocGlock23? What DMV do you go to, I am never in and out of those horrid places.

 

I dont know about him, but i;ve never waited more than 20 Min at either Hazlet or Eatontown..usually it takes me longer to fill out the forms than to do what I need to

[RxBandit 0]

Suspicion confirmed.

Have a nice day.

Criminals steal guns, they don't go to gunshows or to private sales. Stop bumping an already debunked thread.

You two are honestly missing my point somehow, I'm just trying to have a discussion...but that's fine, have a good night

[anactivegrenade 25]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I read somewhere that a very small percentage of guns used in crimes are traced back to gun shows.

 

Somewhere in the low single digits.. 1-3%???

[Soju 153]

To stir the pot a bit, as it was starting to burn...

 

Why should all felons be prohibited from owning firearms and be stripped of that right?

[Ray Ray 3,566]

To stir the pot a bit, as it was starting to burn...

 

Why should all felons be prohibited from owning firearms and be stripped of that right?

 

not all felons are

[AverageJoe 95]

I'm all for NICs across the board...but not the NJ way...its recockulous that our NICs go to SP first then they call it into NICs charging the $16.04 while every other state gets to call in directly. Give me a hotline for F2F sales.

[vladtepes 1,060]

I'm all for NICs across the board...but not the NJ way...its recockulous that our NICs go to SP first then they call it into NICs charging the $16.04 while every other state gets to call in directly. Give me a hotline for F2F sales.

 

I agree... I am all for nics checks also... Originally I was pretty hard lines about just using an FFL... But a lot of people on the forum pointed out some issues with that... I think a hotline or even a website option would be good...