Another shooting at Heritage Guild tonight

[brucin 923]

Deer slayer said:

 

" How would you like it if you were in the port plinking away, and the dude with a rental walks in next to you and blows his brains out?"

 

Well tonight I'm in a bit of a pissy mood so I would hope they didn't get anything on my shoes.

[sof 0]

 

As stated earlier, my wife and I were there when it happened although we had just finished up and were in the sales area of the store getting our drivers licenses back. We went again this Monday and had a chance to talk to one of the ROs who was in the shooting range area when it actually occurred, and he said the guy was acting kind of weird before hand. Pacing around, in and out of the port, nervous and jerky. They had a meeting of the ROs and they are getting training in assessing the behavior of the shooters and profiling them. No word on what that means and it would probably be hard to define how weird relates to suicidal/homicidal. It's interesting to note that the lanes are being videoed at all times and the incident is on file. We agreed that the owner of the range must be connected for there to be so little being made of this in the local news. Hopefully that will help curtail the copycats and outright loonies by keeping the idea from spreading.

To me, the oddest thing is that the guy bought a box of 50 shells and shot 49 of them downrange.

Anyhow, there is no talk of changing the rental policies at present.

[HBecwithFn7 296]

As stated earlier, my wife and I were there when it happened although we had just finished up and were in the sales area of the store getting our drivers licenses back. We went again this Monday and had a chance to talk to one of the ROs who was in the shooting range area when it actually occurred, and he said the guy was acting kind of weird before hand. Pacing around, in and out of the port, nervous and jerky. They had a meeting of the ROs and they are getting training in assessing the behavior of the shooters and profiling them. No word on what that means and it would probably be hard to define how weird relates to suicidal/homicidal. It's interesting to note that the lanes are being videoed at all times and the incident is on file. We agreed that the owner of the range must be connected for there to be so little being made of this in the local news. Hopefully that will help curtail the copycats and outright loonies by keeping the idea from spreading.

To me, the oddest thing is that the guy bought a box of 50 shells and shot 49 of them downrange.

Anyhow, there is no talk of changing the rental policies at present.

 

This is encouraging.  I'll certainly do my part.  Life is good.

[BlueLineFish 615]

Joe, in some ways that isn't a bad idea. I was at Brick Armory once a few years ago. Two girls rent a gun, one of them walks back into the store carrying the gun, finger inside the trigger guard, says the gun stopped working. Dude, I was about to hit the floor! The guy at the counter grabs the barrel and points it at the floor as quick as he could. Tells her she must put the gun in the gun bag when not using it. She was like, ok, but it isn't working so what's the big deal.................. I never went back there after that day.

i agree. The lack of supervision at these public ranges is why i never go. To many knuckleheads out there.

[Sell682 1]

These are the things as shooters we cannot prevent but we must always be aware of our surroundings and call out a possible problem before it escalates.

 

Example : I was at the bullet hole one day and as I was reloading my magazines I noticed the guy next to me had a malfunction . He had his gun out and was jerking the trigger to see if it would go off. Then he starts to turn the barrel away from down range and towards me. I stepped back and immediately yelled at him before he tried to rack the slide as the barrel of his gun was pointing at my port and his finger still on the trigger. At that time the RO came over and took over the matter.

 

Funny thing is the guy acted as if I was at fault for calling him out in his actions.

 

So always be aware of you surroundings at any ranges.

[gleninjersey 2,141]

While the idea of having an employee with you at all times sounds like a good idea unfortunetly it won't stop somoeone from doing this if that is their intention. Think about the time it takes to do it. 2 or 3 seconds maybe? There is almost always a RO there on the firing line, sometimes more than one. ROs are there to help guide newbies safely through the process, answer questions and reduce the risks involved by keeping an eye on things, as is ever shooter on the firing line to some degree. The biggest safety feature is the one between everyones ears. Heritage Guild makes you sign 2 pages of waivers and watch a safety video prior to shooting there. This is not only to protect themselves but also educate everyone to the possible dangers and risks they may be exposing themselves to once they enter a range. In the video it stresses activities that are dangerous and reminds you that ANYONE can call a cease fire and that everyone on the range is responsible for safety.

 

I don't think the story is being covered up. Suicides happen multiple times a day. Unless the persone is someone of some type of news worthy importance why should this one get any more news coverage? The antis don't have much to profit from by trying to make an issue out of this story. A person, by their own actions, ended their life and didn't harm any one else. Sad? Yes, absolutely. But how is it different than someone using a razor blade, pills or walking in front of a train (which has happened several times this year between NJ Transit and NYC subways)? Those stories get reported and then on to the next horrible piece of news. It's the mental illness that is the problem/issue and not how someone ended tbeir life.

[CMJeepster 2,781]

It's the mental illness that is the problem/issue and not how someone ended tbeir life.

There we have it, folks!  Work on the core issue, not the instruments.  Limiting mag capacities won't stop violence any more than limiting the size of a spoon will stop people from getting fat.  One doesn't need to rent a firearm to commit suicide.  $10 at any hardware store will get you enough rope to do the job.

[HBecwithFn7 296]

While the idea of having an employee with you at all times sounds like a good idea unfortunetly it won't stop somoeone from doing this if that is their intention. Think about the time it takes to do it. 2 or 3 seconds maybe? There is almost always a RO there on the firing line, sometimes more than one. ROs are there to help guide newbies safely through the process, answer questions and reduce the risks involved by keeping an eye on things, as is ever shooter on the firing line to some degree. The biggest safety feature is the one between everyones ears. Heritage Guild makes you sign 2 pages of waivers and watch a safety video prior to shooting there. This is not only to protect themselves but also educate everyone to the possible dangers and risks they may be exposing themselves to once they enter a range. In the video it stresses activities that are dangerous and reminds you that ANYONE can call a cease fire and that everyone on the range is responsible for safety.

This has been my experience at HG as well. I have gone mostly when there aren't many on the range, and several ROs were there to help. I recall once having an issue with a rental of theirs. The spent brass didn't clear the slide ejector. I put the weapon down (pointed downrange of course), and called them over. They fixed it immediately. And off, I went again. They went back to what they were doing.

 

I don't think the story is being covered up. Suicides happen multiple times a day. Unless the person is someone of some type of news worthy importance why should this one get any more news coverage? The antis don't have much to profit from by trying to make an issue out of this story. A person, by their own actions, ended their life and didn't harm any one else. Sad? Yes, absolutely. But how is it different than someone using a razor blade, pills or walking in front of a train (which has happened several times this year between NJ Transit and NYC subways)?

Well, this particular incident did make the local news (lehighvalleylive.com) etc. Not sure if it made local electronic media. I guess it didn't make "national," as you say, since there weren't any shooting victims other than the shooter himself (of course, the RSOs and staff were "emotional" victims).

 

But, "constant vigilance," nonetheless.  Not trying to put on a "tin foil" hat, here, but I think it's unrealistic to believe the MSM would never, ever, "not" spin an incident involving guns toward their anti-gun agenda, if they could.  As stated in another thread, how often are "successful home/self defense with gun" incidents actually reported, as opposed to "criminal (or even accidental) violence" incidents where a gun was used? The MSM usually reports the latter, promptly and often and with their idea of "appropriate emphasis." The former might take a while, if at all (social media helps get those on the national news, maybe a few days later), but mostly with some kind of anti-gun spin on it.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

Years (decades) ago most everyone had some sort of small arms training courtesy of the Military.  With the close of the Viet Nam War and the end of the Draft, our Servicemen eventually became Grandfathers.  Some taught their offspring and Grand-kids to shoot, some didn't.  Highpower Rifle, Bullseye and PPC were the only "gun games" around, and they both require accurate shooting, so the only folks interested in "the shooting sports" already had some inkling of training or experience.  Fast-forward to today and that is NO MORE!  We have middle-aged and seniors discovering the joys and responsibilities of firearms ownership for the first time, and some are members of this Forum (and that's a good thing).  Most do really well but there are some that will "sweep" everyone in a pit, causing guys like Jon to hit the deck and report on this event on these Forum threads.

 

It used to be that you could walk into a public range and everyone was always safe.  NOT any more!  Due to a combination of a new Shooters' complete lack of experience, NO mandatory training requirements (don't want to piss-off the 2A Chest-Pounders), RO's who don't shoot competitively not having the training/number of rounds down range to spot potential problems before they happen, and the current price of supplies limiting safe practice and/or paying for training, we have now what I can best describe as a Perfect Storm:  Accidents waiting to happen!  When you mix-in one-sided stories and examples of RO's busting balls and the resulting egos being trampled-on, the Big Picture I see appears to take shape.  Folks with limited experience/training being encouraged to operate rented arms that they haven't been checked-out on, and this includes where the mag release is and how to work a slide and use a safety.  In the "old days" folks would let you try their guns and you could even swap ports and see if you wanted to buy that model.  If you didn't know how to work something, you were SHOWN by the owner before a single round left the muzzle!  Today's business plan and rules don't allow for much of that, since the business makes more money if Shooters don't share their knowledge and love of the hobby/sport.  If I ever wanted to try someone's gun, I just politely asked and fellow Shooters would trip-over each other to make it happen, as is the case nowadays at the Club Leagues I attend.  These same Leagues are open to the public.  

 

The last time I was in Lakewood, I stopped at Shore Shot to see what all of the fuss is about.  As I was standing in-line to pay for a bottle of gun oil, I was swept by a 20-something woman coming-out of the range with a hand gun in her hand with the action closed.  Apparently there was a problem with the rental and the RO was outside BS-ing at the sales counter....  I put the bottle of oil back onto the POP display and immediately left the place, never to return!  If it were up to me, gun rentals wouldn't exist, at least without some form of training on the gun so some of these Noobs would know how to open the action and clear the gun.

 

As to the suicide problem at ranges, well I'm not going to say that it can't happen at a Private Club, but on the other hand, I can't remember reading about the last time it did.........

[Newtonian 453]

Yeah that works out real well for first time gun buyers trying to find a gun they like. Or maybe an out of town enthusiast who wants to relax and blow off steam at a range?  If you are going to kill yourself there is NO WAY that you can be stopped. For example: Kid steals car drives 100 mph into traffic, Person jumps off bridge, person steps in front of train etc.  So why waste time effort and money to prevent something that can't be stopped?

I agree in principle. 

 

But let me pose this question to you: If, God forbid, someone you knew was going to commit suicide, regardless of the means, would you prefer they did it at their own home or yours? At your place of business or someone else's?

 

There is also the issue of someone in that state of mind perhaps taking one or two others with him.

 

You can't stop them, but at least you don't have to clean up the mess. Or suffer a bad reputation in a state where gun owners are already stigmatized. 

[gleninjersey 2,141]

Smokin .50, most.private clubs are more than likely fillled with veteran shooters who are much more familiar with firearm safety. Shooting at a private club is certainly your right and privlege to fully enjoy but ask yourself is it helping any of the problems you have encountered? I'm sure you have probably helped lots of newbies in your time but your attitude of "I belong to a private club where nothing bad ever occurs and it is so much bette and safer than any public range." kind of sucks.

 

I happen to enjoy shooting at Heritage and think they run a first class place. I've taken my wife there and wouldn't hesitate to take any friends who have never handled a gun before there. One thing I do is to try to be alert as possible to my surroundings when at the range. At the very lest I acknowledge people in the ports next to me with a friendly nod when entering. At an appropriate and safe time I'll usually say hello and "Watcha' shooting?". If they don't want to chat thats fine, but generally it's the opposite and I've had many nice conversations with someone who was a complete stranger up until a few moments before. If they are a new shooter I tell them if they need anything or have any questions to feel free to ask. Often I've switched ports and let someone try my guns while I try theirs. When leaving I thank them and tell them it was nice chatting/meeting them and maybe we'll see each other again.

 

I understand you love your private range and want to attract new members but I don't see how your comments or attitude help new shooters or the firearms community.

[Newtonian 453]

Years (decades) ago most everyone had some sort of small arms training courtesy of the Military.  

 

...

 

It used to be that you could walk into a public range and everyone was always safe.  NOT any more!  Due to a combination of a new Shooters' complete lack of experience, NO mandatory training requirements (don't want to piss-off the 2A Chest-Pounders), RO's who don't shoot competitively not having the training/number of rounds down range to spot potential problems before they happen, and the current price of supplies limiting safe practice and/or paying for training, we have now what I can best describe as a Perfect Storm:  Accidents waiting to happen! 

 

Great post. 

 

When people tell me they won't join Cherry Ridge because of "all those silly rules," I just smile and think "thank heaven."

[Smokin .50 1,907]

Smokin .50, most.private clubs are more than likely fillled with veteran shooters who are much more familiar with firearm safety. Shooting at a private club is certainly your right and privlege to fully enjoy but ask yourself is it helping any of the problems you have encountered? I'm sure you have probably helped lots of newbies in your time but your attitude of "I belong to a private club where nothing bad ever occurs and it is so much bette and safer than any public range." kind of sucks.

 

I happen to enjoy shooting at Heritage and think they run a first class place. I've taken my wife there and wouldn't hesitate to take any friends who have never handled a gun before there. One thing I do is to try to be alert as possible to my surroundings when at the range. At the very lest I acknowledge people in the ports next to me with a friendly nod when entering. At an appropriate and safe time I'll usually say hello and "Watcha' shooting?". If they don't want to chat thats fine, but generally it's the opposite and I've had many nice conversations with someone who was a complete stranger up until a few moments before. If they are a new shooter I tell them if they need anything or have any questions to feel free to ask. Often I've switched ports and let someone try my guns while I try theirs. When leaving I thank them and tell them it was nice chatting/meeting them and maybe we'll see each other again.

 

I understand you love your private range and want to attract new members but I don't see how your comments or attitude help new shooters or the firearms community.

 

Glen,

 

Here's some more info, as I see it:  

 

Most Private Clubs are filling-up with Newbies that need some form of training.  League Shoots are the best form of training, as they always reinforce safety through education and peer pressure.  As a Discipline Chair running a League where we draw loaded sidearms from a holster, I can emphatically state that every League the Club has does some good and contributes to the safety of the sport in general!  All of our Leagues are open to the Public, and the range calendar is posted on our web site.  Perhaps you might wish to visit to see what all of the fun is about?  I'm sorry if you think my attitude sucks.  I don't like being swept by Newbies.

 

My comments and attitude are the result of decades of experiences, some good, some great and some, well, not so great.  Encouraging new shooters to get training or to become active in Leagues helps the Shooter as well as the entire firearms community.

 

Private Clubs have their own share of problems and misfits.  It's not a Utopia.  Every-so-often we discover the real need to refund a Member's money and ask them to no longer show-up, as their attitude about SAFETY makes them un-trainable.  We enjoy the benefits of membership.  One of those benefits is NOT being swept...

 

As to your ability to make new friends and enjoy yourself at HG, I think that is just fantastic and I applaud you for it, for that is the way it's supposed to be.  NOT every commercial range allows you the freedom to do what you describe.  I wish you all of the success you can handle in your shooting endeavors and trust that your continued usage of situational awareness will keep you safe.

 

Have a great weekend!

 

Dave

[M4BGRINGO 139]

If you didn't know how to work something, you were SHOWN by the owner before a single round left the muzzle!

 

This is what a friend did for me a few short years ago. He brought everything he owned to Brick Armory to let me try. I watched him work the gun, loading either a mag or single rounds in the revolver, saw what to do with the safety, mag release, cylinder release, etc..... I would then shoot that gun. Back in the case it would go when I was done and the gun was cleared, and the next one came out.

 

I then applied for my FID card and within a few short months outnumbered his collection by at least a 2-1 margin which has grown even larger, as you well know Rosie!

 

If I ever wanted to try someone's gun, I just politely asked and fellow Shooters would trip-over each other to make it happen, as is the case nowadays at the Club Leagues I attend.  These same Leagues are open to the public.  

 

Hmmm.... Seems like I almost had to force you to come to PCC one night and use my CX4, which you out-performed me with! 

 

The last time I was in Lakewood, I stopped at Shore Shot to see what all of the fuss is about.  As I was standing in-line to pay for a bottle of gun oil, I was swept by a 20-something woman coming-out of the range with a hand gun in her hand with the action closed.  Apparently there was a problem with the rental and the RO was outside BS-ing at the sales counter....  I put the bottle of oil back onto the POP display and immediately left the place, never to return!  If it were up to me, gun rentals wouldn't exist, at least without some form of training on the gun so some of these Noobs would know how to open the action and clear the gun.

 

This is almost identical to the incident at Brick Armory the 2nd (and last) time I went there.

 

As to the suicide problem at ranges, well I'm not going to say that it can't happen at a Private Club, but on the other hand, I can't remember reading about the last time it did.........

 

That can happen anywhere, but I am sure most people contemplating suicide will prefer to do it around strangers rather than friends/family, thus the renting of guns at a Public Range.

[raz-0 1,259]

Most suicides let it be known to some extent that they are going to off themselves. To whom and for how long is variable. Going through the whole club membership thing is probably not impulsive enough to be within that range. The odds ofr a private club suicide are an existing member who is depressed enough to do so. If they are the kind of person who doesn't want to go an do it someplace where only strangers are inconvenienced, they'll probably just do it at home. 

[mikka1 2]

That's not the first time I see similar conversation and there is one thing I totally can't understand or even imagine - "liability of a range".

Forgive my illiteracy as I grew up in another country and was lucky enough to move to the US only several years ago thus never ever facing all ins and outs of American legal system, but I feel totally lost when someone is saying about "liability of a range owner" in case of an incident like the one discussed here. I remember being told once by Anthony from G4H (hopefully I don't reveal any secrets by saying this) that he pays some high 5-figures for liability insurance and even with that price tag insurer makes him implement some measures like "no rentals to single shooters" etc...

 

So, seriously, enlighten me - if I'm the owner of a convenience store / dollar store selling different kind of stuff including, let's say, carpet knives or cutlery knives, and one unlucky day a nut comes in, takes the knife from the shelf, opens its packaging, cuts his throat and dies from bleeding out in minutes, will I also face all kinds of liability lawsuits from his relatives?!

 

Getting back to range stuff, I can possibly imagine a range to be held liable for an *accident* with a stupid newbie excited about how bullets leave the barrel who decides to look into it and pull the trigger with predictable outcome (so the range can be technically accused in improper safety training), but I really can't understand at all how a person or a company can be blamed in an intentional deliberate act committed by another adult person acting with full understanding of what was going to happen as a result. Again, forgive my complete ignorance, this just doesn't fit my picture of the universe. What if tomorrow another suicidal pal decides to jump somehow in front of my car on a highway when I'm doing 65, am I also going to be held liable for this!? Or if a friend of mine with suicidal thoughts (which, believe me, is not that easy to spot. I mentioned some time ago that a person I knew quite well from the school offed himself this summer by jumping out of his window and even people who spent time with him on a regular basis had absolutely no idea that he might have ever come with such a "solution") borrows my car and decides to off himself by hitting something, am I also on the hook basically for the rest of my life?!

 

-----

 

P.S. I've been blamed several times already in different situations that I was trying to fob off on my set of values by asking people in the US "stupid" questions like this. I've been also told many times (sometimes quite aggressively though I couldn't really get why) that I was not in Europe anymore and that I should have just accepted the life as it was here and "in Rome live as the Romans do". Believe me, it's not my intent to harass / humiliate / fool / joke  or insult anyone by such questions, I just really still don't understand some things even after living several years here (notably like why all gas stations nationwide list their prices as 3,259 for a gallon, if there is no practical way to charge a person with a fraction of a cent, so it's still 3,26 which realistically doesn't make a difference from 3,25 even if filling up a tank of a large truck, or why all prices everywhere are listed without taxes or... lots of other things I still need to try to figure out for myself), and when I don't understand I start to ask questions... :-)

Sorry if this long post is not quite relevant to the topic, just tried to formulate one of the questions that bothered me for some time :-)

[M4BGRINGO 139]

Welcome to America Mikka1, the home of the 10:1 lawyer to civilian land! Here, in the wonderful US of A, we have people try to sue for something every second of the day! Sometimes the lawsuits are tossed before they ever get to a court, other times morons that spill hot coffee on themselves are set for life, go-figure! We are the land of the "not responsible for my actions".

[Newtonian 453]

 

Getting back to range stuff, I can possibly imagine a range to be held liable for an *accident* with a stupid newbie excited about how bullets leave the barrel who decides to look into it and pull the trigger with predictable outcome (so the range can be technically accused in improper safety training), but I really can't understand at all how a person or a company can be blamed in an intentional deliberate act committed by another adult person acting with full understanding of what was going to happen as a result. 

You're correct, but this is the USA. Anyone can sue anybody over anything.

 

Imagine a scenario where a range officer could have stopped unsafe behavior, but was instead telling a joke with his back turned, or taking a leak. Is there logical liability? Probably. 

[mikka1 2]

Imagine a scenario where a range officer could have stopped unsafe behavior, but was instead telling a joke with his back turned, or taking a leak. Is there logical liability? Probably.

Well, again, I might be wrong, but just logically I would look at if there was an intent of a person to commit certain act. Looking into a barrel of a loaded gun for fun or trying to play a Russian roulette with a revolver to brag in front of friends = unsafe behavior, that could and should be stopped by RO with a violator permanently removed from the range. Loading the gun, putting its barrel into the mouth or to the temple and blowing the brain off this way = intentional action of a person that in most cases cannot be stopped by anyone simply because it can realistically take seconds.

Again, just IMHO.

[gunforhire 826]

I wonder what happens to the rental guns used this way.  I'm sure the police take them as evidence at first.  Are they returned to the range/store?  Are they put back in rental rotation?  I know at the end of the day a gun is just pieces of metal/polymer but I'd be a little spooked knowing I was renting a gun someone used to end their life.

A suicide is ruled the same as a homocide and gun stays in evidence forever. Like my Glock 19.

[gunforhire 826]

I could certainly live with that, as long as I could still rent without owning. And I'd be willing to go at days/times when they weren't all that busy and could afford to be with me.  Again, this is only a temporary situation for me. I hope to join the ranks of owners soon. Just gotta get "bureaucracied up."

Never work, Action beats Reaction every time!

[gunforhire 826]

This has been my experience at HG as well. I have gone mostly when there aren't many on the range, and several ROs were there to help. I recall once having an issue with a rental of theirs. The spent brass didn't clear the slide ejector. I put the weapon down (pointed downrange of course), and called them over. They fixed it immediately. And off, I went again. They went back to what they were doing.

 

Well, this particular incident did make the local news (lehighvalleylive.com) etc. Not sure if it made local electronic media. I guess it didn't make "national," as you say, since there weren't any shooting victims other than the shooter himself (of course, the RSOs and staff were "emotional" victims).

 

But, "constant vigilance," nonetheless.  Not trying to put on a "tin foil" hat, here, but I think it's unrealistic to believe the MSM would never, ever, "not" spin an incident involving guns toward their anti-gun agenda, if they could.  As stated in another thread, how often are "successful home/self defense with gun" incidents actually reported, as opposed to "criminal (or even accidental) violence" incidents where a gun was used? The MSM usually reports the latter, promptly and often and with their idea of "appropriate emphasis." The former might take a while, if at all (social media helps get those on the national news, maybe a few days later), but mostly with some kind of anti-gun spin on it.

Media has an unwritten code that they do not overly publicize suicides out of respect for the family.

[BlueLineFish 615]

The media has morals...I find that hard to believe

[HBecwithFn7 296]

Media has an unwritten code that they do not overly publicize suicides out of respect for the family.

 

That's not been my experience. And I  have a journalist or two in my extended family. A suicide where the subject is the only victim isn't "news" necessarily, unless there's some other angle to the incident that will get more viewers and ratings. An example being, the Tyler Clementi incident where he jumped off the GW Bridge, having been "video hazed" by his college roommate. This, or if the subject (shooter) also takes other victims with him/her (i.e. "Newtown, Sparks, etc.)... even worse if the addl. victims are children. That's mega news, and will fetch beau-coup ratings.

[gunforhire 826]

That's not been my experience. And I  have a journalist or two in my extended family. A suicide where the subject is the only victim isn't "news" necessarily, unless there's some other angle to the incident that will get more viewers and ratings. An example being, the Tyler Clementi incident where he jumped off the GW Bridge, having been "video hazed" by his college roommate. This, or if the subject (shooter) also takes other victims with him/her (i.e. "Newtown, Sparks, etc.)... even worse if the addl. victims are children. That's mega news, and will fetch beau-coup ratings.

When I had the guy kill himself the media did not even report it and they were there after the fact, All you usually see when it is a regular joe is a local blurb and no real media attention.

 

Ant

[pbkid6974 1]

i never heard anything about a suicide at GFH. the only reason i heard about the ones at HG was this forum. if there is no way to make it a tragedy then the media will not pick it up. the tyler clementi thing was because he was "bullied". thus continued the agenda to pussify america. that other college girl that jumped from the bridge earlier this year was big news because no one knew what happened until they found her body. then it promptly dropped from the news. the only time you hear about suicides are when they affect more than a few people, they can champion against the cause, or someone else is killed. someone offing themself with a gun does not further the antis agenda. they know the person would have found another way to do it.

[Blacksmythe 71]

I wonder what happens to the rental guns used this way. I'm sure the police take them as evidence at first. Are they returned to the range/store? Are they put back in rental rotation? I know at the end of the day a gun is just pieces of metal/polymer but I'd be a little spooked knowing I was renting a gun someone used to end their life.

imagine what the history on a mil-surp rifle might be. If mosins,Enfield's, FALs, m1's M16,s and AK's could talk.

[Albanian 121]

I wonder if my sks has killed anyone. When I got it, it's original spring was worn out I had to replace it, so it definitely saw use.

[gleninjersey 2,141]

i never heard anything about a suicide at GFH. the only reason i heard about the ones at HG was this forum. if there is no way to make it a tragedy then the media will not pick it up. the tyler clementi thing was because he was "bullied". thus continued the agenda to pussify america. that other college girl that jumped from the bridge earlier this year was big news because no one knew what happened until they found her body. then it promptly dropped from the news. the only time you hear about suicides are when they affect more than a few people, they can champion against the cause, or someone else is killed. someone offing themself with a gun does not further the antis agenda. they know the person would have found another way to do it.

 

From my readings I believie it occured some time ago before Anthony opened the range and he was training on a one-on-one basis.

 

Anthony, sorry that horrible experience every happed to you.  Sucks.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

 

If you didn't know how to work something, you were SHOWN by the owner before a single round left the muzzle!

 

This is what a friend did for me a few short years ago. He brought everything he owned to Brick Armory to let me try. I watched him work the gun, loading either a mag or single rounds in the revolver, saw what to do with the safety, mag release, cylinder release, etc..... I would then shoot that gun. Back in the case it would go when I was done and the gun was cleared, and the next one came out.

 

I then applied for my FID card and within a few short months outnumbered his collection by at least a 2-1 margin which has grown even larger, as you well know Rosie!

 

If I ever wanted to try someone's gun, I just politely asked and fellow Shooters would trip-over each other to make it happen, as is the case nowadays at the Club Leagues I attend.  These same Leagues are open to the public.  

 

Hmmm.... Seems like I almost had to force you to come to PCC one night and use my CX4, which you out-performed me with! 

 

The last time I was in Lakewood, I stopped at Shore Shot to see what all of the fuss is about.  As I was standing in-line to pay for a bottle of gun oil, I was swept by a 20-something woman coming-out of the range with a hand gun in her hand with the action closed.  Apparently there was a problem with the rental and the RO was outside BS-ing at the sales counter....  I put the bottle of oil back onto the POP display and immediately left the place, never to return!  If it were up to me, gun rentals wouldn't exist, at least without some form of training on the gun so some of these Noobs would know how to open the action and clear the gun.

 

This is almost identical to the incident at Brick Armory the 2nd (and last) time I went there.

 

As to the suicide problem at ranges, well I'm not going to say that it can't happen at a Private Club, but on the other hand, I can't remember reading about the last time it did.........

 

That can happen anywhere, but I am sure most people contemplating suicide will prefer to do it around strangers rather than friends/family, thus the renting of guns at a Public Range.

 

 

Great post Mike!  Thanks for your perspective.  (Sorry I kicked yer butt with yer own gun, lol.  PCC was very enjoyable and run by a great bunch of folks too!).