Questions for NJSP Firearms Investigation Unit at NJ SAFE Conference

[John Willett 70]

concerning carry.....and you'd have to give them lead time on this one i think.

 

They will have time to develop a response to any of the questions we send.  The intent in getting questions is that we will forward them before the conference to help them prepare a presentation that addresses those they can address.  Based on my review of what I have been seeing here and on Facebook, there are some I expect will be outside their scope of expertise.  But we have many good questions that I am eager to hear addressed. 

[GRIZ 3,369]

Why can't I have a flash suppressor?

 

How come we can't get carry permits?

 

What are reasonable deviations?

 

Cite examples where NJ gun laws prevented crimes?

 

The problem is people are expecting NJSP to answer questions they can't answer. It's not their job to write the laws. These questions should be answered by the legislature.

 

Why delays on getting ppp through them? Manpower is the answer. If you go to a barracks to apply for your permits I can guarantee they only have a detective assigned to this as a collateral duty. If he has a shooting, two rapes, 4 burglaries, and 12 assaults assigned to him which do you think he's trying to clear? Those crimes or getting you your ppps in 2 weeks. The answer to that is more funding for more detectives. That comes from the legislature so we're back to that.

 

Larger cities have the volume and should have personnel assigned to handling fids and ppps. But who controls large cities in NJ? Liberals who don't want you to have a gun at all.

 

Expecting to have NJSP answer a lot of your questions is not realistic. They are an executive branch of the government and don't make all those laws. A representative from the legislature or even the AG'S office would be more capable.

[1LtCAP 4,263]

i understand that griz.....but........first off....i do think they can gather the answers to most of those questions....at least stats on crime prevented(riiiighgggtttt) by our laws.......but in my mind, they can infuence the legislature, in that if they went to them, and said that they thought that nj gun owners have been proven cleaner than most people in the country, and therefore we think that we should be allowed to issue carry permits.......that would carry some weight, and possibly change things.

 

..

[CMJeepster 2,778]

Carol Bowne.

[Khamil10 5]

Moreover, while we all understand that they do not write the laws, these are in many cases the people who will arrest you (or not) according to their understanding of the law. It is 100% relevant to ask them "if I stop to grab a burger with a handgun in my trunk, and you discover this, will you arrest me?"

[siderman 1,138]

They will have time to develop a response to any of the questions we send.  The intent in getting questions is that we will forward them before the conference to help them prepare a presentation that addresses those they can address.  Based on my review of what I have been seeing here and on Facebook, there are some I expect will be outside their scope of expertise.  But we have many good questions that I am eager to hear addressed. 

Since theyre going to have time....ask them how many violent gun crimes are commited by FPID holders compared to the criminal element. Because we're the ones that are being punished with every damned law they make, why us?

[MLArmory 33]

They will have time to develop a response to any of the questions we send.  The intent in getting questions is that we will forward them before the conference to help them prepare a presentation that addresses those they can address.  Based on my review of what I have been seeing here and on Facebook, there are some I expect will be outside their scope of expertise.  But we have many good questions that I am eager to hear addressed. 

 

This

[Indianajonze 379]

i'd also like to understand more about the NICS new jersey uses and that the state police administer. 1. it's supposed to be instant, yet it is anything but. how are delays of 2-3 hours possible via an instant online system? 2. again, if it is an instant system, why is it subject to hours of operation? why can't it be running on a sunday, for example, or 24/7 in general? understand gun stores obviously aren't open 24/7, but, given the prevalence of delays and backlogs (point 1), why can't the system run during off hours to catch up?

[siderman 1,138]

Since theyre going to have time....ask them how many violent gun crimes are commited by FPID holders compared to the criminal element. Because we're the ones that are being punished with every damned law thay make, why us?

And by "they' of course the legislaters not NJSP.  My guess is this stat isnt kept only because it would confirm the explicit bias toward legal gun owners. And if it is known I'll bet the number is so small that its virtually irrelevant to the crime stats.

[brucin 923]

concerning carry.....and you'd have to give them lead time on this one i think.

 

 with all of the background checks we go through......and if i'm not mistaken, it's at least equal to what people in other states go through for nfa items?  but with all of these background checks, why can't we carry? i'd like to see them list true examples of how our laws have actually prevented crime. with references cited. i'd also like to know how often they re-qualify and train(the avg officer on the street, not special units) in order to remain proficient with their firearm, as compared to the avg gun enthusiast that will be carrying(we know that most of us train monthly or weekly). essentially, i'm looking for their justification in not allowing us the option. i don't think they have any.

Their "justification" is "because I said so".

 

That is how subjects are treated.

[mipafox 438]

I'm sure the answers will be great.

 

How about writing some letters of inquiry to the ATF while you are at it?

 

(don't do that)

[siderman 1,138]

I'm sure we will learn a lot. I'm going to bring a rnd of Hornady Critical Defense and show them personaly how it cant possibly be classified as a hp. Maybe get a selfy with one of the fine officers too.

[John Willett 70]

I'm sure we will learn a lot. I'm going to bring a rnd of Hornady Critical Defense and show them personaly how it cant possibly be classified as a hp. Maybe get a selfy with one of the fine officers too.

 

You should bring some hollow nose too, you know, for comparison. ;-)

 

(Everyone, please do NOT bring any ammo)

 

On a serious note, I agree that it should be a helpful session. 

[mipafox 438]

Have it on this side of the river and we'll bring more ammo than they could carry.
 

I promise to show and bring a few hundred close friends.

[Kevin125 4,772]

You should bring some hollow nose too, you know, for comparison. ;-)

 

(Everyone, please do NOT bring any ammo)

 

On a serious note, I agree that it should be a helpful session.

 

If you have a carry permit.... The three of you know who you are..... Please do bring ammo and make sure one of those little fellers is chambered. The irony of a gathering of gun owners being a gun free zone is just too much. Plus... If any Islamo fascists try to break up the party....they've threatened to do as much since LEOs will be in atendance....someone will be prepared to make their day end badly.

[Silence Dogood 468]

Just for info on semiautomatics with a pistol grip:

Must not be on the ban list of specifically banned models, have fixed or pinned butt stock, no bayonet lug, no threaded barrel and no flash hider.  Magazine limit is 15 rds.  You can use a permanently attached (pin and/or welded on}  muzzle brake but the criteria is normally that the opening on the end must be bore size or close to it.  If you are challenged by the system for not using a proper muzzle brake, it is up to the prosecutor to test and prove that your muzzle device is not a flash hider. I have not heard of an instance where this has been done.

The NJ law on semi-auto rifles is certainly restrictive and unlike the NY or CT SAFE acts many semi-auto rifles are allowed. In those states you cannot even have a pistol grip which has led to some very weird looking AR rifles with a snake like fixed stock. I predict that the SAFE act will be introduced as legislation after Chris Christie leaves office next year. Its going to be hard to stop it.

Well if they do they are going to have some feisty folks opposing!

[Silence Dogood 468]

How about "when will they release their "Guidelines for FPID Review" that they send to local LEOs to the general public so we know what they are?"

[OfcrFek 21]

If a thumbhole stock is considered a stock, or a stock/pistol grip

[Smokin .50 1,907]

Agreed, another good question!

 

Perhaps.

 

But I would like to hear an explanation as to why they write inaccurate interpretations of the law such as this.

 

 

 

This is for Transportation -into- the state of NJ.  Not within it's borders.

 

They create confusion and improperly guide their officers and Local LEOs potentially creating situations where people are improperly detained or even arrested and charged when no crime was committed.

 

http://www.njsp.org/firearms/firearms-faqs.shtml

The NJSP also get to enforce FOPA Rules as they apply to non-residents.  There are only a handful of members here that can separate the two sets of rules (ok, I may be exaggerating slightly), and this second set of rules is constantly mis-used and mis-quoted (therefore misinterpreted) as fact that applies to NJ resident gun owners.  Some of us run off at the mouth (and typewriter) co-mingling the two, which always adds to the inevitable outcome of CONFUSION, INC.!

 

New Jersey seems to have sprouted a Carriage-Trade bidness created by this very confusion.  Clearing-up the "is a stand-alone loaded mag a loaded gun" would clear things up a bit.  

[Smokin .50 1,907]

  

 

 

Be careful what you ask for. If they define reasonable deviation by statute, those and only those reasonable deviations will be recognized. I don't think anyone is going to tell you you have to crap your pants or let your car run out of gas. Say you get a call on your way home from the range one of your parents had a heart attack and was taken to the hospital. If you go to the hospital instead of directly home that's not a reasonable deviation unless it's listed in the statute.

^^^^^THIS!

 

NJ is already the victim of unintended consequences, so IMHO it would be better if the law on deviation was dropped altogether.  It's only used as means to get a plea from an otherwise good guy, as the bad guy's gun charges simply "go-away" during the plea bargain phase.  If a felon is caught with a firearm in the commission of another crime, somehow they're never put-away for stopping to pee somewhere, so let's just get the law rescinded completely because the HP in the gun give them enough time in the lock-up anyways, right? 

[siderman 1,138]

How about "when will they release their "Guidelines for FPID Review" that they send to local LEOs to the general public so we know what they are?"

Oh yea, remember that fiasco? kind of got forgotten and tucked into a dark corner somewhere.

 In regards to many other questions they'll need to get  back to you. Just fill out the form with your name, phone number, and the serial #'s of all your guns and put it in the box.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

So far, it looks like we have some really good questions and examples related to the interpretation/application of the "Assault Weapons" Ban (Evil features and firearms banned by name), Reasonable Deviation, and the Permitting Process.  

 

As this is the Firearms Unit of NJSP I expect the focus of the questions is going to be on practical application by officers and the guidance that they provide other agencies. 

 

Are there any big areas I missed? Others we should add?

John,

 

How about we ask them which laws they feel are bordering upon harassment and should be scrubbed?  Which laws are suffering from unintended consequences and need a re-write so their intended use for "crime-stopping" doesn't go against common sense.  How about we ask them to please reprint the FOPA Rules on their website so as to clearly indicate that said rules apply to NON-RESIDENTS transporting firearms and ammo THROUGH NJ?

 

We as a community are seeking relief from obvious unintended consequences and would like them to list which laws we should be asking our legislators to CHANGE.  Simply saying, "We only enforce what's written" is getting a little OLD at this point....

 

Rosey

[1LtCAP 4,263]

John,

 

How about we ask them which laws they feel are bordering upon harassment and should be scrubbed?  Which laws are suffering from unintended consequences and need a re-write so their intended use for "crime-stopping" doesn't go against common sense.  How about we ask them to please reprint the FOPA Rules on their website so as to clearly indicate that said rules apply to NON-RESIDENTS transporting firearms and ammo THROUGH NJ?

 

We as a community are seeking relief from obvious unintended consequences and would like them to list which laws we should be asking our legislators to CHANGE.  Simply saying, "We only enforce what's written" is getting a little OLD at this point....

 

Rosey

that would be about all of them. 'cept substitute eliminated for re-write.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Be careful what questions you ask, you may no like the answer they provide, not that any of it really has any legal bearing anyway. I think your going to get exactly the answers of the law, vague at best.

[DeerSlayer 241]

Exactly! Would be nice to know if taking a leak or getting gas is reasonable. What about stopping for a bite to eat?

Yeah, and we would like that answer in writing from the trooper answering the question.

[revenger 473]

http://www.njsp.org/news/2016/pdf/rp20160314_1354.pdf       Not sure if this is related to this thread or if it is covered somewhere else here.     looks like they want to add a new criteria for a carry permit in addition to the justifiable need bull.      They do give an example of a taxi driver who drives in bad neighborhoods.         The thing I see is that they are still referencing all this justifiable need to the NJ supreme courts view on it.   Also this "Federal Standards Statement
A Federal standards analysis is not required because the proposed
amendments do not exceed Federal standards, and are not proposed under
the authority of or in order to implement, comply with, or participate in
any program established under Federal law or under State statutes that
incorporate or refer to Federal law, Federal standards, or Federal
requirements."    Any know anything about this,  looks like there is a public comment period.

[Kevin125 4,772]

Sticking with the OPs purpose...... The NJSP could be asked ..."What issue are they addressing with this amendment and what brought about the change and how will their change resolve the issue they better than any other solution such as making this a 'Shall Issue' state??????"

 

In other words, get them to state in a public forum why "Shall Issue" is a problem for them.

 

By forcing that issue into the discussion, it could lead to statements that would ultimately be helpful.  ...Could...  I think it's worth a shot.

 

Text from the linked doc.  It seems to me that this may have be a reaction to events such as the murder of Carol Bowne.  I'm just guessing, but why else would they add specific conditions to the nebulous "justifiable" condition? 

 

What could follow is a discussion about how the vast majority of people who are violently attacked or murdered in this state were not previously threatened by the attacker.  By addressing only specific cases, the NJSP abandons the citizens of NJ that face the danger of violent acts daily and assigns zero value to their lives by the NJSP as they are told they have no right to protect their own life.  Hence, their life is worthless in the eyes of the NJSP.

 

The  proposed  amendment  to  N.J.A.C.  13:54-2.4(d)  adds  “serious  
threats” to the circumstances that could demonstrate a special danger to
the  applicant’s  life  that  a  private  citizen  may  specify  in  a  written  
certification  of  justifiable  need,  which  would  be  submitted  with  an  
application for a permit to carry a handgun under N.J.S.A. 2C:58-4. The
proposed amendment also clarifies that the issuance of a permit to carry a
handgun  can  be  based  on  a  special  danger  to  the  applicant’s  life  that  
cannot be avoided by other “reasonable” (as opposed to unreasonable or
conceivable) means.

The  proposed  amendment  to  N.J.A.C.  13:54-2.4  harmonizes  the  
regulatory  definition  of  “justifiable  need”  with  the  Supreme  Court  of  
New Jersey’s construction of that standard. The Court first defined the
concept in Siccardi v. State, 59 N.J. 545 (1971). In Siccardi, the Court
observed that “carry permits may be issued under this standard to those
who can establish an urgent necessity for self-protection ... [o]ne whose
life is in real danger, as evidenced by serious threats or earlier attacks[.]”

The  Court  also  recognized,  in  determining  whether  an  
applicant for a permit to carry a handgun satisfied the legislative standard
of demonstrating “need,” that “need is a flexible term which must be read
and applied in light of the particular circumstances and the times.”

 

[revenger 473]

"What could follow is a discussion about how the vast majority of people who are violently attacked or murdered in this state were not previously threatened by the attacker. By addressing only specific cases, the NJSP abandons the citizens of NJ that face the danger of violent acts daily and assigns zero value to their lives by the NJSP as they are told they have no right to protect their own life. Hence, their life is worthless in the eyes of the NJSP."

 

Using the NJSP thought process on this issue a "private citizen"  (whatever their definition is of that) as they call us should know in advance that a "serious threat" exists.  If one knew that you would never get on that plane that is going to crash, or get in the car that is going to crash or ship that will sink.   The entire world today is a "serious threat" .

 

 I think comments should be sent in addressing the Purpura v Christie suit explaining that NJ's gun laws are all based on outdated decisions prior to the Heller and McDonald, I'll bet most legislators except for the ones who got served are not even aware of this case. 

 

[xXxplosive 824]

Taking a guest to and from my range.....if they meet me at my house and I go directly to and from the range, must they have a NJFID to be in the car with me....?

[1LtCAP 4,263]

"What could follow is a discussion about how the vast majority of people who are violently attacked or murdered in this state were not previously threatened by the attacker. By addressing only specific cases, the NJSP abandons the citizens of NJ that face the danger of violent acts daily and assigns zero value to their lives by the NJSP as they are told they have no right to protect their own life. Hence, their life is worthless in the eyes of the NJSP."

 

Using the NJSP thought process on this issue a "private citizen"  (whatever their definition is of that) as they call us should know in advance that a "serious threat" exists.  If one knew that you would never get on that plane that is going to crash, or get in the car that is going to crash or ship that will sink.   The entire world today is a "serious threat" .

 

 I think comments should be sent in addressing the Purpura v Christie suit explaining that NJ's gun laws are all based on outdated decisions prior to the Heller and McDonald, I'll bet most legislators except for the ones who got served are not even aware of this case. 

 

 

someone should also show that ALL of our firearms(weapons?) laws are in fact illegal, as all weapons(for the most part) are made illegal in nj with exceptions/exemptions. that i believe oversteps the fed authority, and goes totally against the constitution. one of our attorney members could comment better on that....but i doubt they will.......