Can anyone explain the factual reason why NJ cannot get its gun laws changed like most other States?

[Soju 153]

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[hardlife_nef 1]

I don' t think there is any one thing you can point at and say this is why. I believe that it is a combination of factors, most of which have been mentioned. Let me throw in one more. Apathetic gun owners. I'm sure we've all seen it at one time or another. The it doesnt affect me, I got mine. Or this law doesn't affect me I'm a skeet shooter. There are many out there that dont care unless it directly affects them. Add to that the group that doesnt wanna make a fuss for fear it will make it harder for them or negatively impact them. How many have gone to the local pd and actually said something when handed additional forms? How many grumbled to themselves that it was illegal yet still went through the process? We are the ones that can make a difference. Don't wait for someone to do it for, you see where that has gotten us. Until we all stop grumbling about it and actually do something about it nothing will change for the better. Just my $.002345 (adjusted for inflation)

[PeteF 1,044]

As soon as a "politician" figures out a way that he/she will make money off of changing the law is when the law will change.

[TheSmokingGun 0]

Combination of a few reasons why NJ has its laws and it will be that way for quite some time:

 

1. Because they said so. No, really. Some politicians have been in office 10, 20, 30 years and saying guns are bad. Even if they wanted to change their stance tomorrow, they can't because they'd be flushing their image down the toilet and ruining whatever credibility they may have.

 

2. NJ is the most densely populated state, and relatively well off. Most people don't live in an area where hunting is common, and despite what isolated incidents pro-gun people try and proclaim, most of the Jersey 'Burbs are quite safe and violent crime is not a daily issue for most people. People in FL are pro-gun because half their town is abandoned after home foreclosure and squatters turn the empty houses into meth labs. Despite all the post-Obama gloom and doom, things seem to be just fine in Cranford.

 

3. Large immigrant population. People from Guatemala or India etc. generally don't really care about guns. The only people that have them back home are police and drug lords for the most part. So they don't equate firearms with hunting, fun, etc. and typically only see them as useful with illicit or authoritative purposes.

 

4. Lack of motivated populace. Show of hands, who here has participated in a public protest, demonstration, or other such event to raise awareness? People in other places take to the streets, hold rallies, for many causes. Best we have here is a little meeting where some mid-level internet gun rights celebrity preaches to the choir for a couple hours. Also keep in mind for every guy with an AR-15 that cares about CCW, is ten guys who couldn't care less what the gun laws are, as long as they can keep their 12-gauge deer gun.

 

There are many reasons.

[reloaderguy 30]

It's called "corrupt judges and politicians". Until the state gets rid of these people nothing will change!

[Sticky Grips 4]

Its easy.

 

1. Liberals

2. Its bred into the people here

[Parker 213]

I think the genuine answer is because there is such class distinction that the rich see no need for guns and the poor just want them the heck out of their communities. If you don't own a gun, don't know anybody who owns a gun, and never intend on owning one, you don't care what kind of gun-laws the state passes. If you are a poor black or Hispanic living in Camden who equates guns with gang members, or who has had your friends and family shot, you probably think it's crazy to let people carry guns around.

 

I totally agree. In my neck of the woods, northern Bergen County, we might as well be NYC.

[Parker 213]

Its easy.

 

1. Liberals

2. Its bred into the people here

 

So true.

 

You need a gun culture in New Jersey for people to accept and be trusting of firearms. New Jersey only has a positive gun culture on the internet page frames courtesy of NJ-based pro-gun websites. Externally throughout the state, there is no evidence of a gun culture except in the more rural areas. Even if there is, it's fleeting. By design, the legal procurement of firearms is made difficult. It serves its purpose. The hunting culture is disappearing every day, and any news story about hunting is a vilification of such. There are only five NSCA ranges in New Jersey. (There are 23 in New York and 26 in Pennsylvania.) Golf is the accepted leisure sport in this state, however clay target shooting is not. The media needs to present a more positive image of firearms and their use in New Jersey, or at least provide some intelligent and balanced reporting. There is none, only vilification. There needs to be tone at the top instigating change based upon undercurrent rumblings. We have yet to get the man on the white horse to lead the charge. Guess what? He's not coming to town anytime soon. Santa is coming though.

[Blacksmythe 71]

Living here amongst my fellow poor Newarkers I am experiencing first hand the up hill battles for my rights. No one cares. I am looked at as a curious oddity in the firearms department because I expect them to do their over paid jobs. They no longer answer the phones when I call and I cant take off from work to go down there because I just started working again. I have written letters to all of my liberal elitist politicians. They are all un interested or afraid of the law enforcement here. As soon as I am able to start building on my land I'm moving soon to another state where my GOD given rights will be a little more respected. I think the elitist attitudes of the political nannies and the arrogance of a good majority of desk sitting LEO's are to blame. I'm related to some of them grew up with them and remember when they were to scared to go with me to the recruiters office to sign on the dotted line but got all tough after passing a civil service exam. So chill out LEO defenders.

[Ron 0]

 

 

Actually, no. Or at least very, very rarely.

 

Most of the break ins that happen in Cherry Hill are done during the day and are either done by teenagers looking for prescription drugs or landscapers who walk through an unlocked door to take the wife's iPhone or Purse that is sitting on the table as soon as you come in the door.

 

The poor in Camden are not coming to Cherry Hill to rob someone in my neighborhood, the neighbors would profile them in a second. But the poor will turn on each other. The fact is that people from Camden would feel just as uncomfortable in Cherry Hill as someone from Cherry Hill would feel in Camden.

 

When I think of "middle class" towns in New Jersey, I think of Burlington, Vineland, Toms River, Philipsburg. These are towns where you are considered middle class if you are an electrician who is married to a teacher. You know what I'm talking about: it's the family in the rancher house with the Dodge Ram truck (complete with tool boxes) in the driveway and the Hyundai Elantra parked on the street. They are also the towns were a single mother can "almost" make it if she works as a dispatcher at a trucking company, and her ex's alimony checks clear on time. But these towns are few and far between in NJ. If you live in NJ, you either live in Cherry Hill or Camden. Princeton or Trenton. Short Hills, or Newark.

 

Now there are plenty of people on this board who are from Cumberland County, the Jackson Area and the Northwest NJ, but the fact is that most of the decision makers in this state live in a belt that parallels I-295 as it leaves Camden and moves all the way up to Exit 7 of the NJ Turnpike until it reaches Newark.

 

If you live along that belt, you are either rich and don't "need" a gun or you are poor and you are terrified of gun violence and wish all of the guns would just go away. Politicians will always exploit those sentiments. We have effectively contained crime by making it prohibitively expensive to live in an area where crime actually pays: that is middle class towns.

 

The chances of you ever encountering a person from the "wrong" side of the tracks, as you would in many other states, are very, very low. The rich, poor, and shrinking middle class just don't tend to interact in NJ so the chances for crimes of opportunity are rare.

 

You pompous Cherry Hill elitist. Seriously. The vast majority of us don't live in poverty or some wonderful panacea like you make cherry hill out to be. We live in the state and pay property taxes, support rich and poor with our tax dollars, and never want to live in cherry hill or Camden. We're happy where we are or we move. Sheesh.

[Barms 98]

I'm glad this thread drifted back to the OP and not class warfare..

 

the answer to this question is about Politics and Attitude.. Its not "what is it about NJ and guns?" its "what is it about NJ and everything else?"

 

Face it, the people/attitude that makes up NJ is like no other state in the country. There is California, NY/NJ, and the rest of the United States. NJ people are just different period. (for reasons listed in prior posts).

 

We will never have gun laws like majority of country because NJ doesnt care to be like the rest of the country. We are different. (like it or not).

 

Remember the post about the guy who's neighbor's tree fell on his property and he got really annoyed? Because we are the state of "New-getthefuckoffmylawn-Jersey"

[TheSmokingGun 0]

Mcbethr I just want to say, you are spot on with your assessments. NJs demographics and economics do in fact play aa massive reason for why things are the way they arre, for a number of reasons. People might not like to hear such a realistic assessment because its easier to post about "lib'ruls and sheeple" but that does not make what you say any less true.

 

 

[anactivegrenade 25]

1. Corruption and attitude.

 

I've seen my fair share of videos where a certain NJ judge says "the Constitution doesn't apply in my court room". With that kind of prevailing attitude among judges, politicians, and cops, where they all seem to wipe their asses with the Constitution, you can't expect much to change.

 

2. Conventional wisdom.

 

People believe certain myths and stuff that won't go away. "Guns are for criminals", "guns kill people", "if guns were illegal, crime would go away", "Obama is my lord and savior because he'll keep me safe and give me a free phone", and so on, are the thoughts that people have on a daily basis. Plus, this is all reinforced by the media. CNN and MSNBC loooooooves covering these highly public shootings in which the guns were obtained legally (anyone hear about that shooting at the mall a few days ago?) but never mention Operation Fast and Furious or any other shootings that happen EVERYDAY by thugs armed illegally.

 

People believe all this "guns are bad" crap because it's convenient. It offers a simple, incorrect, and comforting solution to the complex problem of violence in America. People here on the forums already know that gun availability doesn't correlate to violence. Strong enforcement of minimalist gun laws (background checks), preventing criminals from obtaining guns, and most importantly, education, would provide a much greater impact. Imagine if all those troubled kids had the proper help and counseling?

 

But no. Guns are bad. Guns kill people. It's so simple.

 

Fascism - An adventuristic response to economic tribulation, encompassed within an anti-intellectual vacuum,, involving the surrender of the will of the people to a colorful leader and/or dictatorial party.

 

Sounds like the liberals and RINOs combined

 

Another sidenote. Gun violence ain't all that bad in the grande scheme of things. About 13,000 people in the US die by guns yearly. About 180,000 people in the US die by medical malpractice yearly. Should we ban all doctors? I wish these sheeple would just get it.

[KpdPipes 388]

Mcbethr I just want to say, you are spot on with your assessments. NJs demographics and economics do in fact play aa massive reason for why things are the way they arre, for a number of reasons. People might not like to hear such a realistic assessment because its easier to post about "lib'ruls and sheeple" but that does not make what you say any less true.

 

Careful you're going to be labeled as a "Defeatist" now. The biggest part of the problem, and WHY we as gun owners dont have any real political say here is the fact that our own community is very fractured. You have hunters who dont give a damn about Black Rifles or CCW, or you have Clays/Skeet guys who are the same way..or the guy who has one rifle that he shoots once a year whether he needs to or not. unless and until we as a Community of ALL Gun Owners and Shooters of All Disciplines can present a united front, we're dead in the water politically. Frank and the NJ2AS are working hard to change that but it's a slow process. it has taken 46 years to get to where we are..it's not going to change overnight.

[BigHayden 77]

The closest think in New Jersey I can think of with a "good" and "bad" side is Woodbury, NJ, or maybe Burlington.

 

You haven't been to Woodbury in awhile, have you? The "bad" is slowly overtaking the "good". It's becoming "Little Camden".

 

I grew up in Woodbury, one of my relatives has a business there, and one of my friends is a cop there.

[revenger 473]

I believe one of the main reasons we do are so far behind is the fact we have an APPOINTED AG, If the AG did not have kow tow to the governor and we voted in a CONSTITUTIONAL abiding AG than we might have a chance at forcing change. All the AG would have to do is what many of these circuit court judges have recently said such as finding that NJ's current firearms laws are unconstitutional and force the legislature to bring them into compliance with the US Constitution or face contempt charges.

[mcbethr 42]

You haven't been to Woodbury in awhile, have you? The "bad" is slowly overtaking the "good". It's becoming "Little Camden".

 

I grew up in Woodbury, one of my relatives has a business there, and one of my friends is a cop there.

 

I lived in Woodbury about 25 years ago in a house right on the golf course and spent 1 year in the High School there. I drove through the town recently and I was shocked - the golf course shut down and was overrun with weeds. That's a shame, it was a nice little town and you could walk everywhere. But you had your good side (by the golf course), your middle class side (basically west of Broad Street) and your poor side which I guess would have been south of Delaware and west of Broad. I don't know if its still like that.

[SgtToadette 59]

I think Isaac Asimov said it best:

 

“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”

[ruger9 0]

I think Isaac Asimov said it best:

 

“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”

 

Wow- good one. I've never seen that.

[PDM 91]

Here are a few statistics that shed light on the OP's question. In 2010 there were 37,000 NICS checks for firearm purchases in NJ, and 76,000 checks in 2012. A big jump right? Well, consider that NJ has virtually the lowest per capita number of NICS checks in the entire country, and thus presumably the lowest rate of legal firearms ownership (the FBI released NICS check data per state and you can easily calculate the rate based on state populations, available on the internet). Here are a few examples for comparison, both of ant-gun and gun friendly states:

 

NJ: .009 NICS check per person.

NY: .015 NICS checks per person

California: .026 NICS checks per person

New Hampshire: .082 NICS checks per person

Montana: .117 NICS checks per person (with a population of 989,415 people, roughly 11% of NJ's population, yet 115,893 NICS checks were conducted in 2012, compared to 76,000 in NJ with a population of 8.7 million).

 

Put another way, the rate of NICS checks in Montana is roughly 12x that of NJ.

 

Get the picture? Fewer guns owned, fewer gun owners, and thus far less interest in gun ownership rights.

[ruger9 0]

Here are a few statistics that shed light on the OP's question. In 2010 there were 37,000 NICS checks for firearm purchases in NJ, and 76,000 checks in 2012. A big jump right? Well, consider that NJ has virtually the lowest per capita number of NICS checks in the entire country, and thus presumably the lowest rate of legal firearms ownership (the FBI released NICS check data per state and you can easily calculate the rate based on state populations, available on the internet). Here are a few examples for comparison, both of ant-gun and gun friendly states:

 

NJ: .009 NICS check per person.

NY: .015 NICS checks per person

California: .026 NICS checks per person

New Hampshire: .082 NICS checks per person

Montana: .117 NICS checks per person (with a population of 989,415 people, roughly 11% of NJ's population, yet 115,893 NICS checks were conducted in 2012, compared to 76,000 in NJ with a population of 8.7 million).

 

Put another way, the rate of NICS checks in Montana is roughly 12x that of NJ.

 

Get the picture? Fewer guns owned, fewer gun owners, and thus far less interest in gun ownership rights.

 

Excellent analysis. Now.... WHY is this so? WHY does NJ have so fewer gun owners? Let's not go back to the "Cherry Hill rich/poor" thing. All my friends and family here in NJ are middle class.... some lower- some upper- some middle. The majority of them own guns. And I'm not counting the ones who've already left this shitty state because it's shitty... (2 out of 3 were gun owners). I'd say 75% of my not-rich-not-poor family and friends are gun owners.

[Worn_Holster 2]

It is odd that I work as a engineer and many of my co-workers are not anti-gun but never have had exposure to them. One of the guys is talking about getting a shotgun and he sounds like a kid in a toy store looking at the latest new toy. I moved from a state where gun ownership was less restrictive, and I have had exposure to them since my father gave my brothers and me use of a single shot .22 rifle at our farm in VA when I was 10 years old. I know how to handle a gun safely. People are scared of guns here because they have no first had knowledge of gun safety or use, and the gun climate in the legislature is definitely anti. Hopefully the recent decision in Illinois will have a positive trickle down effect on CCW rights here. I have a CCW in VA but its not worth a baseball card here, and I am hoping that things will change. I live in a town with a low crime rate, but that should not be a reason that I can't carry if I choose to do so.

[woodentoe 14]

It is odd that I work as a engineer and many of my co-workers are not anti-gun but never have had exposure to them. One of the guys is talking about getting a shotgun and he sounds like a kid in a toy store looking at the latest new toy. I moved from a state where gun ownership was less restrictive, and I have had exposure to them since my father gave my brothers and me use of a single shot .22 rifle at our farm in VA when I was 10 years old. I know how to handle a gun safely. People are scared of guns here because they have no first had knowledge of gun safety or use, and the gun climate in the legislature is definitely anti. Hopefully the recent decision in Illinois will have a positive trickle down effect on CCW rights here. I have a CCW in VA but its not worth a baseball card here, and I am hoping that things will change. I live in a town with a low crime rate, but that should not be a reason that I can't carry if I choose to do so.

 

I was born in Brooklyn and raised in Staten Island. I never held a rifle or shotgun until a trip to Sunset Hill in the Poconos 3 years ago. I never held a handgun until I took my basic pistol in December of 2011.

 

Now I own three handguns and a shotgun.

 

Bottom line is that we need more people like ME in this state. :-/

[TheSmokingGun 0]

Bottom line is that we need more people like ME in this state. :-/

 

And that goes back to exactly what Mcbethr was saying.

 

What convinces a person, who has never owned/held/known about guns, to decide to go out and obtain one, train with one, etc. ?

 

If they live in one of the majority of isolated suburban communities in NJ, there is no daily life experience with violent crime, there is nowhere to hunt in the 'burbs, and therefore, the thought of firearms ownership never even crosses their mind.

 

If I had never been in the line of work that I went into, I too would have never even thought of owning a gun. Shit, I remember vacationing in Barbados one year and saying "holy crap! you can rent and shoot guns here?". Think about that for a second. Born and raised in the nation of the second amendment. And excited about Barbados's gun laws.

[PDM 91]

Exactly. I was raised in Queens NY and never touched a gun, except for two months at camp when I was 10 when I was the best shot in our bunk with a .22 and won an NRA certificate. I would have loved to have a firearm, but the chances of my parents getting me one were roughly the same as them getting me a pet cobra.

 

Roughly 5 years ago, after going shooting with a friend it dawned on me that I am now an adult with the financial means to buy a gun. The one hurdle was my wife, and trust me that wasn't easy. But I went ahead and bought one and took a basic pistol course, and one eventuall turned into 15, with additional advanced firearms courses, NRA and ANJRPC membersips. NJ2AS membership, membership at other ranges, etc. As I went through the process of buying a gun, I realized just how horrific NJ gun laws are which got me interested in the whole 2A issue.

 

So, all it took was a trip to the range with a friend that got the ball rolling. The very best contribution any of us can make is to take a non-shooting friend to the range.

[Zeke 5,504]

 

 

Excellent analysis. Now.... WHY is this so? WHY does NJ have so fewer gun owners? Let's not go back to the "Cherry Hill rich/poor" thing. All my friends and family here in NJ are middle class.... some lower- some upper- some middle. The majority of them own guns. And I'm not counting the ones who've already left this shitty state because it's shitty... (2 out of 3 were gun owners). I'd say 75% of my not-rich-not-poor family and friends are gun owners.

From personal experience.

Me,born in Idaho, lived all over landed in jersey. Whole family from wash state. Been around guns all my life.

Wife, born and raised New Jersey. Father in law active hunter. Been around guns all her life.

 

At age 36 we both decided to jump through the hurdles and process' to obtain fpid's and ppa's.

 

It's a pita!

[PhilipJFry 4]

all of the reasons given have merit.

here's some more reasons i can think of:

 

1. suburban attitude - a large part of NJ is suburbs of either NYC or Philly, and suburbs are generally family oriented places. Soccer moms have no problem driving and talking at the same time on the latest Iphone but guns are dangerous to them.

 

2. the news media (radio and tv) are generated from the cities, which both tend to be focused on crime/ poverty/ etc. Firearms are not deemed as a neccesity in urban areas due to a large number of cops visible at all times. in rural areas cops are fewer and far between (states like Maine, New Hampshire, upstate NY) A lot of people in NJ see the problems of violence in Newark, Camden, AC, and equate that with guns. (though gangs and drugs have much much more to do with it)

 

3. "Gun culture" (ugh i hate that euphimism) is generally (not always ) passed down from generations. i know i learned to shoot with my dad and in the Scouts. this is not really PC to suburban parents lately. (as sad as that is)

 

4. Hippies who grew up and became yuppies live and thrive in the generally liberal leaning state of NJ. hippies wanted peace and love and see firearms as the opposite of everything they stand for.

 

5. corruption of politicians runs rampant in this state, and nothing is done politically in this state that doesn't have some ulterior motive.

 

6. this is a very, very expensive state to live in. many middle class people (of which i include myself) are busy working their asses off trying to keep up with the Jones's, you know I pads and HDTV's etc. etc. many people don't have time or effort enough to attend NRA meetings, etc.

 

i try to educate 1 person at a time about firearms, firearms safety, benefits of owning firearms, teaching children about firearms(to use them responsibly, not HANDS OFF approach. it's a slow process but eventually people will be educated enough to make a smart informed decision that is pro-firearms

 

btw i am not a liberal or conservative.

[ruger9 0]

 

3. "Gun culture" (ugh i hate that euphimism) is generally (not always ) passed down from generations. i know i learned to shoot with my dad and in the Scouts. this is not really PC to suburban parents lately. (as sad as that is)

 

 

 

Whenever someone uses the term "gun culture" I interrupt them and say "oh- you mean our inalienable right? The 2nd Amendment in the Bill of Rights?"

[mcbethr 42]

So I finally sat down to crunch some numbers.

Here are a couple of things to note:

 

Just because you don’t like what I’m saying doesn’t mean that it isn’t true. There is already a group of people who ignore facts because it doesn’t help their case. Those people are called antis. The OP asked why NJ is the way it is. I gave a pretty reasonable explanation using qualitative data. Now I’ll use quantitative data.

 

In this paper I’m concentrating on burglary and robbery. These are the crimes in which a reasonable person may want a gun to defend their home and person. I’m not looking at murder or rape. There is too much variance in why people are murdered (crimes of passion, drug deals gone wrong) and most rapes are not “stranger rape” type scenarios. I’m also not looking at targeted crime, where a wealthy individual is specifically targeted (like Dr. Petit) for his wealth. I am looking at the traditional scenario of a burglar in the night or opportunistic stick-up – in other words the typical scenario that most of us think of when we envision being forced to use a gun.

 

My initial argument was that high property taxes are the real reason why guns are so unpopular in this state. High property taxes have segregated New Jersey into two basic communities: rich towns with high property taxes and poor towns with low property taxes. There are very few populous towns that have a mix of wealthy and poor individuals. This is not the case in many other states, where the rich, poor, and middle class live in different areas of the same town.

 

Some baseline figures. The poverty line in New Jersey is $22,881 per year. (http://www.nj.com/ne...es_for_4th.html)

The median income in New Jersey is $71,180. This tends to be a better indicator then average household income. (http://quickfacts.ce...34/3412385.html)

 

You can argue that the poor can just drive to wealthy areas and rob the wealthy. This sounds good in theory. But if this is the case, then why isn’t the burglary and robbery rate in the wealthier areas of the state higher than poorer towns? The answer could be in racial profiling or better alarm systems, but for some reason, the poor just don’t seem to be flocking to wealthy towns to commit crimes.

 

I used the US Census (http://quickfacts.ce.../qfd/index.html) and the FBI Uniform Crime reports from 2010 to compile this data. (http://www.fbi.gov/a...printable-files ) . 2011 is the last year of reliable information. Not all towns were in the census, so they were removed from the crime spreadsheet.

 

THE THEORY:

New Jersey residents don’t care about guns because there are basically two types of towns in New Jersey: rich towns and poor towns. In rich towns, there is low crime and people don’t think that you need a gun. In poor towns, there is too much crime and people want guns to just disappear from their lives. There are very, very few “mixed” towns where an average citizen would want a gun for self defense.

 

In this first chart, we see the top 10 cities for crime in NJ.

 

 

 

 

No surprises there, but the median income is $38,874, which is about 1.7 times the poverty line. Also note that the population in the top 10 cities is 1,197,930. Of the top 10 cities, only Toms River is remotely close to the median income and is the closest to my “mixed” theory.

 

Now let’s take a look at the bottom 10 cities for crime.

 

 

Most of these towns have fewer than 10,000 inhabitants. It’s obvious that there would be little crime. The total population of the bottom 10 cities is 69,049.

 

But let’s take the median income of $71,180 and go from there.

 

 

Interesting, we have median income and still very little crime. The total population is 175,153.

 

Maybe we’re dealing with bad data? What if we take the average NJ town size of 23,447?

 

 

These “average-sized” NJ towns have incomes that average 4 times the poverty line. With the exception of Roselle, crime doesn’t seem that bad in these towns. Most of these towns are very close to the NJ state median income. The total population of all of these towns is 248,857

 

Let’s increase selection sample and expand the selection by 1.5 and take towns between 35,170 and 11,723. The image is too large to show, but the average income is $78,494 and the average and the total population of all 59 cities in the expanded sample is 1,064,560.

 

Let’s just take take the top 10 cities for crime in the expanded sample, we see this:

 

 

Interesting? I think this is the stat that we are looking for, “middle class” cities – average population size where the rich live in close proximity to the poor and may need a gun to defend their homes. I think I hit the nail on the head in my previous post when I mentioned Vineland and Toms River as being one of those few “middle class” cities and the crime rate correlates with my original theory. The total population of these top 10 cities is 211,260.

 

If I take the entire population of towns below Collingswood on this chart – that is every town with a crime rate below 128 crimes per year and add up the population, I get a total of 1,592,758 people who don’t care about guns because crime never happens in their town. If I take the inhabitance of the top 10 crime-ridden cities I get 1,197,930 people who want guns out of their life. This gives me a total of 2,790,688 people who either hate guns or don’t see the need for one and 211,260 of people who live in “mixed” towns where they may reasonably want a gun for home or self defense.

 

This means that the deck is stacked against us when it comes to improving New Jersey’s gun laws because you are either live in a town with no crime so you don’t “need” a gun, or you are poor and live in a town where you want guns out of your life.

 

QED. Now I’m going to bed.

[GunByte 2]

I think gun ownership in NJ has gone up due to sites like this one . But I think the major problems are the media, politicians and the gun laws themselves. It seems that for every good news piece that comes out in favor for conceal carry or gun ownership...it seems the media comes out with five or ten stories against it.

 

As an outsider, I have no easy panacea. I could easily say that the gun laws are the reason gun owners leave the state. But maybe there are other contributing factors too like high taxes, crime and quality of life issues.

 

So as an outsider, I need to ask this question.

 

If the guns laws were to magically turn around tomorrow and be the same as Pennsylvania's. Would you still remain in New Jersey for 1 year, 5 years, 10 years or 15 years or never move? I think a poll is in order. I'd like to see people's responses.

 

Very interesting reponses to my question. First let me say that I get the impression that the citizens of NJ are the problem. While you may say they are not anti gun, neither are they pro gun which is what is needed to pass new less restrictive laws. My new home State of Florida is boasting about hitting a million ccw licenses (they are not permits as we do not need permission) in the next week or two and Illinois is crying that guns will end up in the hands of the wrong people. However, everything can end up in the hands of the wrong people and if we start banning things because of that we lose our freedom out of fear of what the minority will do.

 

Interesting question about moving back. I could move back with a pay increase anytime I wanted to since my company is located there. However I would not move back no matter what the gun laws are at this point unless I had to in order to make a living. My wife and I got a taste of living someplace where we can wear shorts and sandals most of the year and the cost of housing, utilities, property taxes, food, etc. is so much less than it was in NJ that although I took a 20% pay cut to move here, my disposable income is much more. Just not having to deal with snow is a big benefit. We drive around and are surround by farms with cows and horses on both sides of us plus tropical trees and birds that are different than we are used to seeing. It is like living in a place we vacation in. In fact, where we live is a vacation spot and only 60% of the residents are full time like us. There are beautiful beaches all around us and my stress level has decreased so much that I feel like a new person. Let's see, low property taxes, no State or City income taxes, sunshine and warm weather almost year round, beautiful surroundings, friendly people and liberal gun laws. Nah, I would not move back even if they allowed open carry in NJ. Not saying that Florida is ideal as we chose it out of several other places with no snow because we both have family close by. However, I have a few years until full retirement and if all goes well I will be able to stay here until then. However due to the low salaries in Florida, if I was forced to find another job I would have to move but I would try other warm weather States with liberal gun laws before I went back to NJ. The problem is that I am known in my industry in the NY/NJ area so I can more easily get a job there which accounts for me moving in and out of NJ 5 times already.