Time to stop with the "God Given Right"

[SpacemanFry 51]

In my opinion using inalienable rights instead of god given rights is far more effective in general. When you say inalienable rights you immediate invoke the Declaration of Independence and all the rights that are declared as inalienable.

 

As VladG keeps pointing out, and so many of you refuse to see, we're not trying to convince the die hard antis but the people on the fence. These people are a lot more receptive to level headed non hyperbolized rhetoric. And even when you are arguing with an anti who you have no chance of converting there are usually a lot more people in the middle listening. Let the antis come off as rabid, emotional and illogical while you remain level headed and logical and you will win the fence sitters.

[ruger9 0]

No one (except those of us who actually read and study the founders/founding/founding documents) knows what inalienable even means, thanks to the public school system.

 

And frankly, it's not my job to "convince" anyone. The truth is there. I'm done suffering people's willful ignorance. And I sure as hell am not going to change the way I speak to convince those who have chosen to remain ignorant.

 

And on that note- anyone who is TRULY "on the fence" on this issue, who is SUPPOSEDLY "open-minded", would object not one whit to THE TRUTH. If they do, or are "turned off" by the use of the word "God", not only are they NOT open-minded, but remaining willfully ignorant.

 

And that goes for anyone on this forum as well. I'm sick and tired of religion being the only thing attacked more than 2A.

[gunguy1960 2]

Right is right, even if everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it.-William Penn.

[Combat Auto 174]

I can tell you from experience, as soon as you start with the "God Given Right!" , people in the North East are writing you off as a nut. Down south it's not a bad thing, here though it hurts more than helps. Stick with the points of law and the constitution. I know many many people who immediately become very hostile to gun owners when they start with the "god given right". They'll at least listen even if they don't agree when you talk law, but mixing in religion is a losing battle.

 

Long story short, shouting "God given right" doesn't work here and makes you look like a hysteric.

 

You POV needs to be substatiated...Did you do a poll, or is just your "IMHO" (maybe your Uncle Bb said this ;-))?...Even if you had a poll to "prove" your POV. I would still say it is my GGR to self defense...Do you actualy think you are going to change anything by pandering to the left? Haven't you tried that long enough? See where it has gotten "us"?...Time for pandering is over...Get outraged and offended (it has worked well for the left). And DEMAND you GGR to self defense!!!

[djg0770 481]

Natural born rights

 

God given rights

 

Inalienable rights

 

All the same and in direct contradiction to the following:

 

Rights bestowed by the King

Rights bestowed by the Government

Rights bestowed by some Czar

[mikelets456 78]

I can tell you from experience, as soon as you start with the "God Given Right!" , people in the North East are writing you off as a nut. Down south it's not a bad thing, here though it hurts more than helps. Stick with the points of law and the constitution. I know many many people who immediately become very hostile to gun owners when they start with the "god given right". They'll at least listen even if they don't agree when you talk law, but mixing in religion is a losing battle.

 

Long story short, shouting "God given right" doesn't work here and makes you look like a hysteric.

 

God given rights "can't" be taken away, man made rights can....what's so hard and offensive about that? Really? You that wimpified?

 

First off, this BS PC pandering is what got us into this predicament. What's next? Don't call it a gun, it really offends them? My goodness, to post stuff like this is total BS and shows how weak minded you really are.

 

I'm a Christian and an American and it offends me that you post crap like this. Look at the polls, 86% of Americans believe in God and about 60% are practicing Christians. Right off the bat you're pandering to 14% of the public that will never change their minds. Kind of like when Walmart was calling "Christmas" shopping, Holiday shopping...duh! Just who do you think shops at Christmas? They paid (literally) for this foul up. The founders believed that Rights come from "Almighty God" and not government....because Rights from Government can be taken away. I'm sure you're familiar enough with History to know that.

 

BTW, FWIW, I NEVER mention the 2A or any of the Bill of Rights as "Rights from God" until I get into the history and reasoning during a debate. See, the point of coming on here and making statements like this really tick me off because there is no reason as to why you're making such a blanket statement. If your debates evolve that quickly then you're debating incorrectly. It depends on the venue, who's around, who you're talking to, how much time you have, etc, etc, etc. But to simply write a one paragraph post stating "take God out of gun discussions" is...well, ummm....I'll refrain.

 

Go ahead, keep marginalizing God, the Founders, Morals, values and you'll soon see where we really end up....with nothing. It's compromising like you suggest and pandering to a group that wants to destroy us that's got us in this mess and worse, we lose everything!

[YankeeFan 49]

...what mikelets456 said.

[Soju 153]

Even worse is that despite the 10th Amendment, people seem to think anything NOT in the Constitution can be regulated and legislated, which is exactly incorrect.

 

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

[areacode201 4]

Right to defend yourself, your family, and your property is rooted in natural law.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_law

 

If you're religious you believe that natural law comes from God. If you're not you can believe that natural law comes from nature. Either way it's natural law.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

No one (except those of us who actually read and study the founders/founding/founding documents) knows what inalienable even means, thanks to the public school system.

 

And frankly, it's not my job to "convince" anyone. The truth is there. I'm done suffering people's willful ignorance. And I sure as hell am not going to change the way I speak to convince those who have chosen to remain ignorant.

 

And on that note- anyone who is TRULY "on the fence" on this issue, who is SUPPOSEDLY "open-minded", would object not one whit to THE TRUTH. If they do, or are "turned off" by the use of the word "God", not only are they NOT open-minded, but remaining willfully ignorant.

 

And that goes for anyone on this forum as well. I'm sick and tired of religion being the only thing attacked more than 2A.

 

Unalienable has been a word with a definite meaning for centuries now.. so we do know what they meant by it... I am put off by "god given rights" I think it's closed minded to think your God or just God in general decides what rights we do and don't have. Not sure why you would think someone who has an issue with the word GOD is close minded. God has nothing to do with this, whether he is exists or not.... You can argue who gives these rights or why man has them, but the simple fact is we have the rights bestowed upon us by our creator, creator doesn't specifically mean GOD. Our creator could be construed as the earth itself, the word creator is used based on personal perception, however, the fact is the same no matter what you believe in.. might as well be opened minded and talk about your unalienable rights keeping others personal beliefs in mind.

[mipafox 438]

If you don't like God Given Rights, call it Natural Rights.

 

Shit, call it Human Rights, that will confuse the crap out of them.

[halbautomatisch 60]

If you don't like God Given Rights, call it Natural Rights.

 

Shit, call it Human Rights, that will confuse the crap out of them.

That's what I would recommend, it's a term libtards understand.

[bobblackrifle 28]

I"m keeping God and guns in the converstaion. Your fear of what they think about "God and guns" is what empowers them. Stop it.

[Old Dog 19]

I can tell you from experience, as soon as you start with the "God Given Right!" , people in the North East are writing you off as a nut. Down south it's not a bad thing, here though it hurts more than helps. Stick with the points of law and the constitution. I know many many people who immediately become very hostile to gun owners when they start with the "god given right". They'll at least listen even if they don't agree when you talk law, but mixing in religion is a losing battle.

 

Long story short, shouting "God given right" doesn't work here and makes you look like a hysteric.

 

I live down South and hate when people say that. I always ask them where in the Bible it says we have a God given right to own firearms. I agree that it makes you sound like a nut because you are making up rights given by God.

[ruger9 0]

Unalienable has been a word with a definite meaning for centuries now.. so we do know what they meant by it... I am put off by "god given rights" I think it's closed minded to think your God or just God in general decides what rights we do and don't have. Not sure why you would think someone who has an issue with the word GOD is close minded. God has nothing to do with this, whether he is exists or not.... You can argue who gives these rights or why man has them, but the simple fact is we have the rights bestowed upon us by our creator, creator doesn't specifically mean GOD. Our creator could be construed as the earth itself, the word creator is used based on personal perception, however, the fact is the same no matter what you believe in.. might as well be opened minded and talk about your unalienable rights keeping others personal beliefs in mind.

 

You call it what you want, I'll call it what I want. You'll think I'm not "helping the cause", and I'll think your some kind of atheist with a so-called "separation of church and state" hang-up. We'll be even.

 

My creator is God. I don't know and don't care who your creator is, because it's irrelevant. As is who *I* think the creator is. FREEDOM OF RELIGION (note it's not freedom FROM religion) allows us both to hold our own beliefs and speak our own minds.

 

Anyone who is "turned off" by my invoking God IS close-minded. I have no problem with anyone saying "earth-given, nature-given, universe-given, etc..." right, therefore no one should have a problem with me saying GOD given right. And if they do, it's THEIR problem.

[Soju 153]

I got to agree. As someone who is not religious, and does not believe in any 'god', I am not so obtuse that I can't understand what someone means if they say 'god given rights'. Call it whatever you feel like. That is semantics. God given, natural, human, unalienable, inalienable, innate, whatever. I tend to think of it as just, you know, surviving, living, or not dieing. But like I said, semantics. Not sure what you would be 'put off' by something you don't even believe in. That is pretty ironic.

[gunguy1960 2]

Additional hints for those wishing to win the hearts and minds of the fence sitters, never mention online that you are heterosexual, white, male, Christian, Republican, privately employed, those things will turn them off real fast. And of course dont mention the constitution or bill of rights. Oh and never admit to listening to Rush or watching fox news. Never talk badly of tax increases or "sensible, reasonable additional" gun laws. Now go enjoy your new friends!

[Vlad G 345]

So what do you want us to say, that the Government wrote the constitution to give us the right to keep and bear arms?

 

If that's the case, if the Government gave us the right to keep and bear arms, what's to prevent said Government from taking it away?

 

I'm not sure why everyone has a problem getting stuck on god give or government granted, like those are the only two options. The Constitution grants nothing, it recognizes existing rights. It doesn't matter if those rights are god given, Gaia given, natural rights, rights common to all human, rights common to all living things, etc. You don't need god in the conversation lest we lose the idea of inherent inalienable rights.

[Combat Auto 174]

You call it what you want, I'll call it what I want. You'll think I'm not "helping the cause", and I'll think your some kind of atheist with a so-called "separation of church and state" hang-up. We'll be even.

 

My creator is God. I don't know and don't care who your creator is, because it's irrelevant. As is who *I* think the creator is. FREEDOM OF RELIGION (note it's not freedom FROM religion) allows us both to hold our own beliefs and speak our own minds.

 

Anyone who is "turned off" by my invoking God IS close-minded. I have no problem with anyone saying "earth-given, nature-given, universe-given, etc..." right, therefore no one should have a problem with me saying GOD given right. And if they do, it's THEIR problem.

+10...You folks bashing the use of "god" need to wisen-up...The socialist/liberal/collectiveism movement likes to marginalize god. Why? Because they believe the "State"/government is the final authority...Once they have the populous lined up with this belief they can literally do whatever they want to us...Look at Cuoma and his latest abortion law. It is babarick (no respect for life)...

 

Now the left-leaders will not come out and say they are all atheiests (although some have) because that is too obvious...The way they change people's values/beliefs is slowly. First by changing the meanings of words and by telling you what you can say and not say (hey, just like the OP is doing :-))...Sorry my friend, I get my values from the Lord - not the government, not hollywood, not the liberal press...

[Shane45 807]

Bottom line is I am weary of asking may I pretty please have my god given/mother nature given/natural/inalianable freaking rights! Since in most other states in this country you do no have to ask, I think the case can surely be made that these laws are unjust! Just dont hold my trial in a Jersey court!!!

[JackDaWack 2,895]

I got to agree. As someone who is not religious, and does not believe in any 'god', I am not so obtuse that I can't understand what someone means if they say 'god given rights'. Call it whatever you feel like. That is semantics. God given, natural, human, unalienable, inalienable, innate, whatever. I tend to think of it as just, you know, surviving, living, or not dieing. But like I said, semantics. Not sure what you would be 'put off' by something you don't even believe in. That is pretty ironic.

 

How is it Ironic to be put off by something you don't believe in? When you don't believe in something you general don't really care what the message is.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

+10...You folks bashing the use of "god" need to wisen-up...The socialist/liberal/collectiveism movement likes to marginalize god. Why? Because they believe the "State"/government is the final authority...Once they have the populous lined up with this belief they can literally do whatever they want to us...Look at Cuoma and his latest abortion law. It is babarick (no respect for life)...

 

Now the left-leaders will not come out and say they are all atheiests (although some have) because that is too obvious...The way they change people's values/beliefs is slowly. First by changing the meanings of words and by telling you what you can say and not say (hey, just like the OP is doing :-))...Sorry my friend, I get my values from the Lord - not the government, not hollywood, not the liberal press...

Who is "bashing" the use of God? We are merely discussing the rights of all people regardless of what they believe in. Your entitled to believe in what you want, dont narrow your level of influence to only those who believe in God.

 

I'm not going to get into the rest of your post because it would take this WAY of topic.

[mipafox 438]

How is it Ironic to be put off by something you don't believe in? When you don't believe in something you general don't really care what the message is.

 

I don't believe in the Jolly Green Giant but I still hate that MFer.

[Vlad G 345]

No one is bashing your beliefs, but I don't have to share them. The reason I cringe is not because I have a problem with your beliefs but because I know how your beliefs play to the ears of a lot of people out there.

 

You can complain about how ever so terrible the world is without God, but right this moment we are fighting a fight about guns, not about god, and your approach is turning people off. I don't understand why certain people can't separate one from the other when conversing with someone else.

 

Think of it this way, even in this thread, some people told us that if the rights aren't from god then they must be granted by the constitution, there is no other answer. Well that will play awesome to a person on the fence who doesn't believe in god. If god doesn't exist for them, then the only scenario available to them is that rights are granted by the government? Why even give someone only those two choices.

 

How about every other religion out there? How about those who believe in multiple gods? Who granted them their rights?

[djg0770 481]

Unalienable has been a word with a definite meaning for centuries now.

 

Right and the definitions of loose and lose have been clear for equally long as well as cloths and clothes and yet we have people who can't spell and don't know which word is which. So go ahead, talk to them about inalienable rights.

[Underdog 1,593]

When did God give us the right to carry/own weapons? In this country the US Constitution gave us that right.

 

The Constitution does not give you the right. It lends credence to your natural right to self protection, god-given, unalienable, dirt-given, or otherwise, and gives it teeth.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Right and the definitions of loose and lose have been clear for equally long as well as cloths and clothes and yet we have people who can't spell and don't know which word is which. So go ahead, talk to them about inalienable rights.

 

I'm not sure what your referring to and i cant see past the sarcasm so i'll be a square.. Loose and lose are 2 different words, cloths and clothes are 2 different words... Inalienable and unalienable are basically the same word based on different prefixes from 2 different languages.. It's written unalienable in the constitution but today we say inalienable. Just in case anyone was wondering.

 

besides lets not get into a discussion about what they meant back then, people just regurgitate how "arms" means muzzle loader.

[mikelets456 78]

No one is bashing your beliefs, but I don't have to share them. The reason I cringe is not because I have a problem with your beliefs but because I know how your beliefs play to the ears of a lot of people out there.

 

You can complain about how ever so terrible the world is without God, but right this moment we are fighting a fight about guns, not about god, and your approach is turning people off. I don't understand why certain people can't separate one from the other when conversing with someone else.

 

Think of it this way, even in this thread, some people told us that if the rights aren't from god then they must be granted by the constitution, there is no other answer. Well that will play awesome to a person on the fence who doesn't believe in god. If god doesn't exist for them, then the only scenario available to them is that rights are granted by the government? Why even give someone only those two choices.

 

How about every other religion out there? How about those who believe in multiple gods? Who granted them their rights?

 

 

Amazing and your argument is winning how? So let me get this straight...

Pull prayer out of school in 1963. Divorce rates jump exponentially year after year along with murder, theft, rapes, unwed mothers, suicides, mass killings, massacres. Then all morals and values fly out the window along with ethics and many many other problems. Inflation, welfare, blaming others and no more admittance of wrong doing or guilt. I could go on and on but a quick research of history reveals how society has broken down immensely from this point in.

 

The more I think about it if the people in those days would have stuck with their belief in God, the founding fathers and all that 'offensive' crazy talk we would not be in this predicament that we are today . So go ahead keep making excuses and believe that God offends people and see the last few rights we have disappear because you feel God offends people. How's your argument working so far.

 

Btw, tell the truth long enough eventually people will believe it.

 

Go ahead, keep pandering to what the media wants you to believe. Keep being their puppets as you're falling right into their hands like over ripe fruit.

[ryan_j 0]

Some people are so hung up on religion. All I can say is, look beyond religion.

 

I make no bones about the fact that I am a Christian but at the same time I respect the religious beliefs of all, including the right not to believe.

 

When speaking about "God" with regards to public policy, you have to view "God" as a legal concept. "God" as a legal concept means yielding to a higher power than mankind. Once you yield to human beings, that's it, your "rights" become arbitrary and are at the whim of people, including tyrannical Governments.

[greatgunstatenj 32]

YOu don't have to believe in God to understand what a God given right is.

 

"Act of God" is a legal term.

 

Both mean things that no human really has any control of.

 

If you concede that all rights are man made then they can take away any number of them.

 

My rights are inalienable because they are God given rights. The Government doesn't give them to me, it only recognizes them.

 

Remember, the only reason they don't recognize God is because they want to assert that without God, they can make up whatever rights they want for you. So in essence without God you have no rights.

 

God doesn't have to mean Jesus. God just has to mean not human beings and not the Government.

Your rights are not inalienable because God gave them to you. They are inalienable because they cannot be taken from you, they cannot be transferred, you cannot give them away, etc. It has nothing to do with where they came from. Atheists have the same inalienable rights yet they believe in no god. That is one helluva a definition of "God" lol.

 

God given rights "can't" be taken away, man made rights can....what's so hard and offensive about that? Really? You that wimpified?

I think you missed the point completely. He didn't say you couldn't believe what you stated. What he said was that it's counter productive to frame your argument in that way here in the Northeast. He is technically correct, any debate coach will tell you that one of the most important parts of debate is to know your opponent and know your audience. You have to frame your argument so they will agree with you, otherwise it's just a verbal fight. A fight gets us nowhere!