Time to stop with the "God Given Right"

[mikelets456 78]

The Declaration of Independence:

 

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

 

Unless the Declaration of Independence is offensive as well, let's simply just get rid of that document as well...okay?

 

This is a waste of a thread and I'm sorry I got sucked into it. I have letters to write to my Reps and more town halls to go to...so let just agree on the gun rights and move on? We need to write our Reps and go to functions, we all have work to do. VLAD, I apologize as we need to work together and get our Reps educated...lets get off this topic and get to work.

[ruger9 0]

Nick,

 

Totally agree on the "generational war" thing. I just think we need to turn future generations TOWARD God (or whatever) rather than even further away from it. The slow dismemberment of religion in this country is a very large part of the current problemS, imo... but that's another thread entirely.

 

Also agree with the "need a strong decisive win"... imo, you aren't going to get that with a moderate platform, ever.

 

Again, all this is opinion, of course- and civil discourse on these matters is how we ended up with our charters of liberty in the first place.

 

On a side note, I do want to say that I'm sick and tired of what I see as atheist intolerance. I am a Christian. I am tolerant of atheists beliefs. Why will they not be tolerant of mine? If atheists wanted to erect a "nothingness scene" on public property to not celebrate the "nothingness" of the time of year many of us call Christmas, I'm fine with that. I wouldnt petition the govt for forceable removal of an atheist "christmas" scene. And ditto to schools as well.... I have done enough research on many of the founders and their intent to know that the so-called "seperation of church and state" (which does not exist in the US Constitution, this was taken from the VA Constitution), was never intended to scrub all religion from all things public and governmental. On the contrary, you can find many citations where the founders were not only religious (in one way or another) themselves, but also thought a government w/o religious morals and principles would be doomed to failure. That does not mean forcing anyone to pray, or be of any religion, just that the surgical removal of all religion would be a bad idea.

 

As a matter of fact, the removal of all religion from all things public and governmental is called... communism.

[wooly bugger 1]

I agree. Most people in the NE are less interested in religion or principle and are more interested in logical explanations. Although it's a small minority of antis who will respond even to that.

 

It's even simpler with politicians. All they care about is the next election. The tact I've been taking in my letters is to point out the unintended consequences, esp. with the 5 year renewal bill, and suggest they don't want to be part of the fallout that will inevitably result from a multimillion dollar bureaucracy.

 

I'm having trouble finding too politician-friendly arguments for the ammo sales limitation. Anyone have ideas?

[Vlad G 345]

Also agree with the "need a strong decisive win"... imo, you aren't going to get that with a moderate platform, ever.

 

You guys keeps saying that, despite overwhelming proof you are wrong. How many states allowed concealed carry in the 60s? How many do now? What was the legal scholar opinion on the 2A then vs now on the whole individual right thing? All those victories where won by being smart not aggressive.

 

On a side note, I do want to say that I'm sick and tired of what I see as atheist intolerance. I am a Christian. I am tolerant of atheists beliefs. Why will they not be tolerant of mine?

 

You probably won't like my answer but it is because you think atheists should be like you and should be converted. Stop trying to convert them, stop trying to pass laws that contravene their believes because you think they are "moral" and they will probably leave you alone.

 

As a matter of fact, the removal of all religion from all things public and governmental is called... communism.

 

Thats actually nonsense. Having lived in a communist country I can assure you religion was not removed from everything not is the removal of religion a mark of communism exclusively, ask the Germans. For some reason conservatives like to paint anyone not agreeing with them as communists but most of them have no idea what communism is or was.

[raz-0 1,259]

If you don't say or do something they can use, they'll just twist it. If you don't say a word, they'll lie and make some shit up. It is always a good idea to conduct yourself in an honorable manner in accordance of your principles. But walking on eggs around Communists gains you nothing. Ever.

 

It's not the communists. It's the other guy who likes shooting. I'm not religious. I can say that hearing people say it is god given right doesn't bother me much. However being lumped into the same group with the the folks who start lecturing the group of people who are ostensibly there to listen about how none of this would be a problem if you just believed in the right god the right way bothers the heck out of me. It is essentially telling people that the problem is that you aren't exactly like me, and you made this mess. The reality is that as people, nobody at any of these things is out there gunning down people. THis state has a lot of blacks, asians, indians, hispanics, immigrants, and white people. IT also has a lot of hindus, sikhs, muslims, atheists, catholics, methodists, lutherins, mormons, unitarians, etc. Anything thing that says outright that those group of people should go screw off is NOT good for us as a group of gun owners. Stop[ opening up the conversaiton with the equivalent of you're an a-hole.

 

BTW. I have to explain basically this same thing to atheists on a regular basis.

 

Seriously, if you believe we will all be judged before god in the end, you might want to stop speaking on his behalf and being a prick while doing so. He might not view it well.

[Vlad G 345]

I'm going to address the communism vs religion issue some more, because I think it is time to smash some misconceptions. This is an example on how holding a factually wrong belief can hurt our cause. When you make your arguments based on factually wrong statements, it doesn't matter if what you are trying to prove is right, your argument will be dismissed.

 

I grew up in downtown Bucharest, Romania, during the last and worst days of communism. I've witnessed the worst that communism can do to a country and a bloody revolution. I am the LAST person in the world to defend communism. The European and Russian communists did not try to squash religion in any meaningful way. I know this first hand as I grew up with a church in may back yard, and I mean that in the sense that I shared a fence with a church. My alarm clock for a decade was the 7am call to prayer from that church.

 

In the 80's the communists were really fond of demolishing whole sections of the old town to build cement monstrosities and apartment buildings. They had no issue demolishing medieval structures to slap down a housing project, but whenever a church got in the way the built around it or carefully lift it off its foundations and moved it.

 

Don't believe me? Here is a google maps pictures of the churches in Bucharest, and most of these churches are older then the United States, and a lot of them don't even show up at that resolution:

 

 

Now lets zoom in a bit. In the late 80's Ceausescu decided to mow down about 5-10% of the city to build himself a new palace and "civic center". He ended up building one of the largest buildings on earth as his palace, and in the process he did knock down a few churches but also MOVED a whole pile of them. When it was all said and done, in the middle of his monument to communism, there is a Medieval Monastery 1000ft from his palace, a Medieval Church 2000ft away, and the Patriarchal Cathedral 3000ft away.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now, you can tell me that maybe Romania was different. Ok, let me show you a picture of Moscow's Red Square, and you tell me what you SMACK IN THE MIDDLE OF RED SQUARE:

 

[ruger9 0]

You guys keeps saying that, despite overwhelming proof you are wrong.

 

Proof please? Is CCW all you got?

 

 

You probably won't like my answer but it is because you think atheists should be like you and should be converted. Stop trying to convert them, stop trying to pass laws that contravene their believes because you think they are "moral" and they will probably leave you alone.

 

You're answer is wrong. Makes no difference to me that you are wrong. But that's your ignorance, at least of MY position. I have no desire to convert anyone to anything. But I DO want to be left alone, as I leave others alone.

 

How many times do I have to say it: INDIVIDUAL LIBERTY.

[ruger9 0]

Just because there are alot of old churches in Bucharest proves absolutely zilch on the subject of the government co-opting a religion, or even banning the practice of religion. So they didn't raze the buildings. So?

 

Where Nazi Germany co-opted the religion and used it for it's own evil gains (much like what is happening to Islam right now), Communist Russia repressed religion and the practice thereof... athesim was the official doctrine of the Soviet Union...

 

 

The history of Christianity in the Soviet Union was not limited to repression and secularization. Soviet policy toward religion was based on the ideology of Marxism-Leninism, which made atheism the official doctrine of the Soviet Union. Marxism-Leninism has consistently advocated the control, suppression, and the elimination of religion.^[1]

The state was committed to the destruction of religion,^[2][3] and destroyed churches, mosques and temples, ridiculed, harassed and executed religious leaders, flooded the schools and media with atheistic propaganda, and generally promoted 'scientific atheism' as the truth that society should accept.^[4][5]

Religious beliefs and practices persisted among the majority of the population,^[4] in the domestic and private spheres but also in the scattered public spaces allowed by a state that recognised its failure to eradicate religion and the political dangers of an unrelenting culture war.

 

http://en.wikipedia....he_Soviet_Union

 

So, they tried to eradicate religion. In the end they failed. But they did try, and it was the official doctrine of communism.

[Vlad G 345]

Proof please? Is CCW all you got?

 

What is your proof exactly? I gave you concrete examples of progress on the firearm front, I pointed out that the good god fearing people of the 50's supported handgun control by an overwhelming margin that was completely turned upside down. Exactly what do you base your statements on besides flawed beliefs on how the past was so much rosier then the present?

 

 

You're wrong. But that's your ignorance, at least of MY position. I have no desire to convert anyone to anything. But I DO want to be left alone, as I leave others alone.

 

Really .. this is what you wrote ON THIS VERY PAGE:

 

I just think we need to turn future generations TOWARD God (or whatever) rather than even further away from it.

 

Stop trying to convert people and they MIGHT leave you alone.

[ruger9 0]

Stop trying to convert people and they MIGHT leave you alone.

 

You incorrectly mistake my opinion on what would make things better, for my (incorrectly assumed on your part) want to change people, of which I have none. People do what they please and make up their own minds on such issues.

 

Altho, let's not get into the whole "morality" issue... "laws aren't based on religious morals", etc... because we'll be here all night. As I have said, the founders made no secret what role they believed God/creator/whatever NEEDED to play in the American experiment for it to work.

[Vlad G 345]

Where Nazi Germany co-opted the religion and used it for it's own evil gains (much like what is happening to Islam right now), Communist Russia repressed religion and the practice thereof... athesim was the official doctrine of the Soviet Union...

 

Those are statements not entirely congruent with the truth. Did communists mess with religion? Sure, but they never eradicate religion or seriously try to. Saying the absence of religion is communism is plain factually wrong and a complete misunderstanding of how religion worked under communism. I am NOT a religious person and I spent more time in church in a communist country then I spent in the US. Try having the priests march down 5th Ave in NY at Easter with thousands of people following them and see how that works out, but that was common in communist Romania.

 

To understand what the communists relation was with religion you need to understand how deep religion penetrated into society. When they prosecuted religions they prosecuted mostly various sects, not the dominant easter orthodox church, and very often they did it with blessings of the patriarchs who didn't like the competition.

 

You can tell me that Atheism was the religion of the Soviet Russia, but what exactly is the religion of the US? I'm pretty sure user's manual says we don't have one either.

[ruger9 0]

Correct- America has no establishment of religion. But what we DO have (or USED to have) that Soviet Russia did not (officially, anyway): the FREE EXERCISE OF religion. But the liberals and atheists are working on it, no worries. Just a matter of time.

 

Also- don't mistake my refusal to "vocally stand down" on my beliefs of God's role in the creation and founding of this country with trying to "convert" anyone- I am practicing the free exercise of my beliefs. On that, the atheists, and the Christians who agree with them on this thread, can kiss my grits.

[gunguy1960 2]

Most people would not have this information or be aware of your particular country you grew up in, thank you for sharing. Most folks posting grew up in America and that may color their opinions, also our opinions historically may have been influenced by the actions of those other players like Mao and Stalin. Most importantly here you have your right to talk and I would use up to half my ammo supply to defend your right. God bless.

[Vlad G 345]

But what we DO have (or USED to have) that Soviet Russia did not (officially, anyway): the FREE EXERCISE OF religion.

 

Wrong again. The Soviet constitution included explicitly that freedom: "freedom of conscience, that is, the right to profess or not to profess any religion, and to conduct religious worship or atheistic propaganda". 30 seconds with google would have told you that. It is irrelevant if in practice it was true or not, the same as it is irrelevant what 2A says when applied to NJ, but they most definitely officially have the right to the free exercise of religion.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

Vlad,

 

I see a HUGE CHURCH, lol! First Rule of blogging is to never try to tell someone who escaped Communism "what Communism IS" lol!

 

Sometimes I think that some posters here are "planted" from the Anti's crowd, are rile-up some of us either as a distraction (to take-up our precious time) or to somehow drive a wedge between gun owners from different walks of life.

 

I'm not religious either. It never bothered me to hear the phrase "God given Rights", but since it's not in my routine vocabulary I've never been accused of pissing in someone's orange juice for using it. I think that differences in background, station in life, age, religion, color, and sexual orientation all will divide us IF we let it. As corny as this sounds, if we want to win this 2A battle, we all just gotta get along. I know that you & Matt are both correct about the uber-religious having to "tone-it-down" a bit. Likewise I have told some previously dyed-in-the-wool Democrats to forgo their incessant "it's Bush's fault" when dealing with new 2A friends made at a Gun Rights Rally.

 

Politics & religion are usually banned from Forums, and now we all realize why...

 

I would like to see this much energy put to better use by directing it to unseat all of the bastards that run the Law & Public Safety Committee in the NJ Assembly!

[gunguy1960 2]

God is the firewall to our gun rights, but we will never convince atheists to read the constitution or study American history, so lets get off this, how about a new topic, what would Jesus carry?

[Duppie 73]

God is the firewall to our gun rights, but we will never convince atheists to read the constitution or study American history, so lets get off this, how about a new topic, what would Jesus carry?

Excellent topic.......I see something Old School but devastating, a blunderbuss perhaps or a Gatling strapped to a donkey or even an Uzi.....converted of course.

[ryan_j 0]

Wrong again. The Soviet constitution included explicitly that freedom: "freedom of conscience, that is, the right to profess or not to profess any religion, and to conduct religious worship or atheistic propaganda". 30 seconds with google would have told you that. It is irrelevant if in practice it was true or not, the same as it is irrelevant what 2A says when applied to NJ, but they most definitely officially have the right to the free exercise of religion.

 

Is that like how NJ has a law where it may issue CCW permits? So effectively we have concealed carry.

[Duppie 73]

Gov model 1911 in NOTHING less than .45ACP..

 

But he has been known to have an affinity for the Browning HP in 9mm

Ah......went all New Testament on me......

[Njgunowner 2]

Screw that, he's the son of god and if he's going to drop the hammer it'll be with authority!

 

Colt Delta Elite, 10mm baby!

[Duppie 73]

As a good Catholic boy I find this new topic somewhat blasphemous and titillating at the same time....... sort of like checking out pretty nuns.

[ruger9 0]

It is irrelevant if in practice it was true or not, the same as it is irrelevant what 2A says when applied to NJ, but they most definitely officially have the right to the free exercise of religion.

 

Really? So, the Soviet constitution (or whatever they called it) allowed for the free practice or religion, but in reality it was repressed? I don't know about you, but the truth of history and what ACTUALLY happened, not what was SUPPOSED to happen, is what matters.

 

That's the argument the antis are using against us right now: "you aren't losing 2A, you can still have guns" "banning semi-autos and hi-cap mags in no way infringes your 2A right; we aren't changing to constitution"... it doesnt matter what 2A says unless it's adhered to. In reality, our 2A rights have begun to be infringed since 1837. WE pay attention to what's on the paper- but that doesn't make it REALITY. REALITY is what matters.

[Soju 153]

God is the firewall to our gun rights, but we will never convince atheists to read the constitution or study American history

 

Just like we will never get Christians to read the Bible or study world history.

 

You want to say something ignorant and leading, I can to.

 

 

 

Really? So, the Soviet constitution (or whatever they called it) allowed for the free practice or religion, but in reality it was repressed? I don't know about you, but the truth of history and what ACTUALLY happened, not what was SUPPOSED to happen, is what matters.

 

I thought I read that Vlad grew up in the Communist oppression that was Romania, so I have a fairly good feeling he understands that, and probably better than your or I. Just saying.

[Vlad G 345]

Really? So, the Soviet constitution (or whatever they called it) allowed for the free practice or religion, but in reality it was repressed? I don't know about you, but the truth of history and what ACTUALLY happened, not what was SUPPOSED to happen, is what matters.

 

I dunno, first you tell me that there was an absence of religion under communism and I tell you from personal experience that this is untrue. Then you tell me that officially they didn't have it (officially being the word you used) and I show you that officially they did, just as they mostly had in reality.

 

So I'm not really sure how many more ways I can tell you are wrong.

 

I'm not telling you that your are wrong to pick on you. My entire point here is that if you are going to make pro-gun arguments (or any arguments at all, really) you should really check your facts. So far all your "facts" have been wrong.

 

It doesn't matter if what you believe in is right, if you try to convince others you need to use accurate facts not ones that can be proven false with minimal effort.

[ruger9 0]

I dunno, first you tell me that there was an absence of religion under communism and I tell you from personal experience that this is untrue. Then you tell me that officially they didn't have it (officially being the word you used) and I show you that officially they did, just as they mostly had in reality.

 

So I'm not really sure how many more ways I can tell you are wrong.

 

I'm not telling you that your are wrong to pick on you. My entire point here is that if you are going to make pro-gun arguments (or any arguments at all, really) you should really check your facts. So far all your "facts" have been wrong.

 

It doesn't matter if what you believe in is right, if you try to convince others you need to use accurate facts not ones that can be proven false with minimal effort.

 

I said religion was repressed under Communism. It was. TRUE.

 

I said that communism is a religion-less governmental form. It is. TRUE.

 

 

The founder and primary theorist of Marxism, the nineteenth century German sociologist Karl Marx, had an ambivalent attitude to religion, viewing it primarily as "the opium of the people" that had been used by the ruling classes to give the working classes false hope for millennia, while at the same time recognizing it as a form of protest by the working classes against their poor economic conditions.^[1] In the end, Marx rejects religion.^[2]

In the Marxist-Leninist interpretation of Marxist theory, developed primarily by Russian revolutionary Vladimir Lenin, religion is seen as negative to human development, and socialist states that follow a Marxist-Leninist variant are atheistic and explicitly antireligious. Due to this, a number of Marxist-Leninst governments in the twentieth century, such as the Soviet Union and the People's Republic of China, implemented rules introducing state atheism. However, several religious communist groups exist, and Christian communism was important in the early development of communism.

[NicePants 58]

Screw that, he's the son of god and if he's going to drop the hammer it'll be with authority!

 

Colt Delta Elite, 10mm baby!

 

Puhlease. 10mm is babby-mode for the Son of God. Obviously, Jesus would carry a S&W .500 magnum. Now THAT'S the fist of an angry God.

[gunguy1960 2]

The gatling gun on a donkey has real possibilities, I believe they in fact made mounts for camels in order to sell the guns overseas. I think it would be loaded with rubber bullets, to discourage the sin but still show the sinner they were loved. Still, coming from a gatling gun I would think there would be some sting involved.

[Vlad G 345]

I said religion was repressed under Communism. It was. TRUE.

 

No, you said that absence of religion is communism.

 

I'm done, you clearly can't read your own posts and are willing to take a new position at every turn.

 

If you don't understand what I'm trying to tell you by now, I guess you never will.

[Duppie 73]

The gatling gun on a donkey has real possibilities, I believe they in fact made mounts for camels in order to sell the guns overseas. I think it would be loaded with rubber bullets, to discourage the sin but still show the sinner they were loved. Still, coming from a gatling gun I would think there would be some sting involved.

Tracer rounds to encourage burning bushes I think with back up from Mosin armed apostles.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

The Declaration of Independence:

 

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

 

Unless the Declaration of Independence is offensive as well, let's simply just get rid of that document as well...okay?

 

This is a waste of a thread and I'm sorry I got sucked into it. I have letters to write to my Reps and more town halls to go to...so let just agree on the gun rights and move on? We need to write our Reps and go to functions, we all have work to do. VLAD, I apologize as we need to work together and get our Reps educated...lets get off this topic and get to work.

 

You are entitled to believe that your creator is God. MY creator is not God, we differ in opinion. The document was written so that it would NOT offend anyone, and it doesn't, so why is this even being brought up? Everyone believes in a creator, science, the universe, something from something, a specific God or Gods, what ever the hell Scientology believe in.... buts it's root is creator physical or imaginary or spiritually.

 

I grew up in a catholic family and went to catholic school my entire life until college, honestly, i was/am disgusted by the people in the community, but that didn't influence my opinion. When my family discovered a close friend was being molested by a parish priest, we brought it up through legal action(because the law mandates it and the kid's family refused to take action because they were person friends with the priest) and were basically black listed with in the community, go figure... So really, you guys need to get off your high horse, religion has done enough harm in history and currently today for anyone to claim how moral it makes you.. not to say it hasn't done equally enough good. God says don't judge, yet i was judged every day as a kid in school because of those events, you try to help someone and they spit in your face... Still i believed in God, somewhere from then until now i lost my belief/faith, religion itself turns away so many people on its own... you don't need atheist when you guys do a good job on your own...

 

i dont understand how this discussion got so incredibly off topic.. we went from people being put off by the statement "God given rights", to somehow atheist are offended by it and some how are immoral drains on society.. I dont have a problem with it, your instituting your belief, but the message is the same no matter what you believe in, sh*t that's really all that matters.