S2723 Revises Firearm Purchaser ID and handgun purchase permits (Sweeney, Norcross, Weinberg)

[NYMetsFan86 9]

And no private sales.

And no online ammo sales

And increases fees and taxes

And...

 

I think all those are killers. They will tax the shit out of everything they can..how else are they gonna fund that crap bill

[Bob2222 317]

Passed 23 to 17. Basically party lines.

 

 

It's scheduled for a vote in the assembly and senate on monday the 24th.

 

 

no online ammo sales is the real killer.

 

1. The Democrats in the NJ Senate (at least) don't have enough votes to override a veto by Christie

 

2. If Christie signs this bill, he would -- in effect -- be voting against his own party

 

3. Yesterday, the NJSC threw out the Democrat challenge to Christie's strategy on the special election for Lautenberg's Senate seat. http://blog.nj.com/njv_paul_mulshine/2013/06/court_backs_chris_christie_on.html

 

Despite the apparent lack of interest in the SC decision by all except for NJ political junkies, (to use Vice President Joseph R. Biden's words) "This is a big f***ing deal", because if Christie was concerned about how a veto might look if he was forced to run on the same ballot with Cory Booker -- he's not worried about that today.

 

(Just please stay away from the foie gras and fried prawns, Governor, at least for the next few years!)

[RUTGERS95 890]

the first time a police officer pulls you over and then asks, upon seeing the FID portion, if you have any firearms in the car you are being profiled.  Guarantee that is a suit that will come up

[diamondd817 827]

And no private sales.

And no online ammo sales

And increases fees and taxes

And...

I just spent some time going over the bill. Where exactly does it ban online ammo sales? All I can find is that the ammo must be shipped to the same address on your FID card.

[wooly bugger 1]

I just spent some time going over the bill. Where exactly does it ban online ammo sales? All I can find is that the ammo must be shipped to the same address on your FID card.

Yes, the address on your DL that no one but a dealer can confirm is, in fact, and FID card. 

Do you think out of state dealers are going decipher this monstrous bill and invest in the scanning technology just to serve the tiny NJ market?

[voyager9 3,434]

I just spent some time going over the bill. Where exactly does it ban online ammo sales? All I can find is that the ammo must be shipped to the same address on your FID card.

Section 15 talks about rifle ammo. It requires the buyer to have a eFid to purchase rifle ammo. It also establishes a system (that one assumes all sellers must use) to track the online sale of ammo. Section 16 covers handgun ammo and I think has similar limits.

 

The way it's written is vague (surprise). It could just mean that if you buy ammo then you are guilty of breaking a law. It could also mean the seller would be guilty. I'm not sure which way actually applies.

 

If the latter then it means the online retailer would have to verify a buyers Electronic FID (which they can't) and use an online system to report the sale (which they won't). So basically many will probably simply chose to not sell to NJ residents.

[Steve_G 51]

I just spent some time going over the bill. Where exactly does it ban online ammo sales? All I can find is that the ammo must be shipped to the same address on your FID card.

 

 

Section 15 talks about rifle ammo. It requires the buyer to have a eFid to purchase rifle ammo. It also establishes a system (that one assumes all sellers must use) to track the online sale of ammo. Section 16 covers handgun ammo and I think has similar limits.

 

The way it's written is vague (surprise). It could just mean that if you buy ammo then you are guilty of breaking a law. It could also mean the seller would be guilty. I'm not sure which way actually applies.

 

If the latter then it means the online retailer would have to verify a buyers Electronic FID (which they can't) and use an online system to report the sale (which they won't). So basically many will probably simply chose to not sell to NJ residents.

 

This is basically going to be up to the online sellers whether they want to sell to NJ or not. NJ law is meaningless in the other 49 states, they can ship away if they choose. As long as you have the efid, you are not breaking the law by ordering the ammo. As far as the reporting of ammo sales, if it is up to the seller to do that, out of state sellers simply don't have to. If that is how the law is written, the only one I know of that would have to comply is Ammoman. The online sellers that ask for fid right now, may choose to stop selling to NJ or get the scanner. The ones that don't ask for fid, will probably continue with business as usual.

[222 3]

This is basically going to be up to the online sellers whether they want to sell to NJ or not.... As long as you have the efid, you are not breaking the law by ordering the ammo. 

 

Actually no.

 

Read sections 15 and 16 (b).  As the buyer, you are required to "exhibit such card."

Out-of-state sellers may not be issued the device under section 12 to decode the embedded information.  Also folks to sell ammunitiion my not be a "dealer" of firearms, an assumption not addressed by the bill.

 

They may sell it to you because they don't know better.

But you may be prosecuted because prosecutor can prove you received ammunition without first "first exhibit such card."  Holding and possessing is only 1 requisite element, not the whole of requisite elements defined as legal transaction.

Hunters have a way out because they go get a hunter's license, which is not embedded.  That allows them to buy rifle and shotgun ammunition.

Folks who want handgun ammo have to renew every 4 years, even if they just inherited the handgun, and keeps it at home.

 

Weinberg did not give-up on her bill to ban online ammo sales.  She still wants to criminalize legal gun owners, just by devious ways.

 

15.  b.    (1) No person shall sell... or.. receive... unless the purchaser... is the holder of ... a valid New Jersey hunting license, or a valid New Jersey firearms purchaser identifier card embedded...  first exhibits such card..  to the seller..

 

16   b.   No person shall sell... or... receive... unless the purchaser.. is the holder of..  a valid New Jersey firearms purchaser identifier card embedded.. affirming that the person is qualified.. to ..  receive a handgun...  first exhibits such card.. 

[voyager9 3,434]

If the card is my DL then I can "exhibit" it without a problem. I am complying even if the seller has no way to verify the embedded Information.

[Glockguy1120 0]

I can't remember ever having to show anything anywhere online to buy ammo like I do at the store. I don't think any vendor is going to care just as they do now. Plus not one store in pa that I've been to in the last ten years has ever asked to see state id. I know friends from jersey that routinely go to pa and buy 30 round pmags from stores that know they're from jersey and no one has ever had a prob. I think the online sales thing is moot. I don't see how they could ever enforce it without monitoring everyone's Internet activities. Plus like its been stated, our laws mean shit across the border so the vendors can't be held liable for us breaking a bs law.

[rlsbee 1]

In regard to showing an FID to an online dealer. Would it satisfy most online dealers, if we scan our current FID, keep a copy of the scan on the computer, and send that to the dealer? Would they even know that the old FID's are no longer valid. I know that I'd try it.

[222 3]

If the card is my DL then I can "exhibit" it without a problem. I am complying even if the seller has no way to verify the embedded Information.

I will yield to you the honor of trying first.

[siderman 1,138]

In regard to showing an FID to an online dealer. Would it satisfy most online dealers, if we scan our current FID, keep a copy of the scan on the computer, and send that to the dealer? Would they even know that the old FID's are no longer valid. I know that I'd try it.

And what about all the future recipients who will never have had a paper ID card? Eh, they prob just want to see the DL for age verification anyway not so much the fpid.

[Stonecoldchavez 92]

the first time a police officer pulls you over and then asks, upon seeing the FID portion, if you have any firearms in the car you are being profiled.  Guarantee that is a suit that will come up

 

That is my first thought. It gives them "probable cause" to search your vehicle. That is profiling. No need to have this information on your DL.

[Stonecoldchavez 92]

In regard to showing an FID to an online dealer. Would it satisfy most online dealers, if we scan our current FID, keep a copy of the scan on the computer, and send that to the dealer? Would they even know that the old FID's are no longer valid. I know that I'd try it.

 

I already have mine scanned. I had to send it to them the first time I purchased ammo online to a particular vendor.

 

I have never once been asked to show ID to purchase ammo in PA. Actually on time I pulled out my DL when I puchased some and the lady behind the counter asked me what I was doing that for. lol.

[M4BGRINGO 139]

So........If I have a "friend" purchase ammo in another state can that "friend" send me the ammo? Or is that now a straw purchase for buying ammo............. NJ sucks.

[rlsbee 1]

Another thought on this.... let's say Pa. dealers know that separate FID's are no longer used in NJ and that NJ Buyers will only have a DL. NJ buyer goes into a Pa. gun shop, and presents his DL to the PA. dealer. What laws will prevail for the dealer to legally sell? Not much chance that they'll have a way to read the encoded data. Suppose the laws are vague and Pa. dealers take the attitude that if they see a NJ DL, it's a good sale. Could this lead to undesirables  buying guns and bringing them back to NJ. That might be a little embarrassing for legislators. If legislators found out this was happening it could lead to even uglier laws.

I don't know what the laws are like for a NJ buyer in Pa. (or any other state) so I'm kinda fishing for input. Am I 'over thinking' this?

[ogfarmer 138]

We will be cut off from out of state purchases because they will not want to deal with it, just like PA has pretty much cut off NY'ers

[wooly bugger 1]

This is giving me a headache. I'm off to Aimsurplus to buy another case of 7.62x54r...

[wooly bugger 1]

This is giving me a headache. I'm off to Aimsurplus to buy another case of 7.62x54r...

[CMJeepster 2,778]

Scarlett letter or yellow star anyone?

[Glockguy1120 0]

Neither. Revolt

[bignic83 0]

Viva la Revelucion!!!!!

[exfed2002 4]

so if I understand the bill correctly, there is now going to be a 7 day waiting period for HG purchases? I

That has been embedded in the law (2C:58) since probably the late 60's, but very few people know about it and it never had to come up except once for me in 1975.

[malice95 3]

We will be cut off from out of state purchases because they will not want to deal with it, just like PA has pretty much cut off NY'ers

I gotta wonder about this. I've never been asked for anything to buy ammo in pa. Ya just gotta look 21 I think.

My concern is mail order. I buy surplus in bulk to save money. I am concerned that the big surplus sites for ammo

(7.62*39 and 5.45*39) won't want to ship to NJ. Makes me want to stock up asap.

[plode 0]

Does PA actually require(a law) us to show our NJ FID to purchase guns? 

It's not like we'll be buying guns without a background check, you still get the NICS(well, PICS in PA) check. 

 

I know when I bought a long gun in Kentucky the guy only asked for my DL.

[Glockguy1120 0]

Does PA actually require(a law) us to show our NJ FID to purchase guns?

It's not like we'll be buying guns without a background check, you still get the NICS(well, PICS in PA) check.

 

I know when I bought a long gun in Kentucky the guy only asked for my DL.

Every long gun I've bought in pa, aside from FTF, has required nj paperwork. Pa requires a dl and as soon as they see you're from nj they break out the jersey forms. Handguns require a ffl transfer on top of that. But as far as ammo, I've bought tons from pa stores and since they don't require ANY paperwork or id for ammo, I've never been asked for either. I once bought 2000 rounds at cabelas and they rung it up as if I was buying beef jerkey. That's why I don't think this bill will have too much affect on anything since there's no way to enforce it or monitor it.

[ogfarmer 138]

Bill is being voted on today in full assembly starting at 1pm

 

http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/media/live_audio.asp

[plode 0]

Almost 1:40 and no audio feed still.  Are they always late?

[ogfarmer 138]

yes