Another "What Progressive Press" Thread...

[Bully 749]

I've been reloading for about a year and a half.  Currently I have a Lyman T-Mag II.  It works well.  I feel like my ammo quality is pretty consistent.  I feel like I would like to speed it up a bit.  So, I find myself considering a progressive. 

 

In the Dillon line, I'm between the 650 and the 550.  I don't completely understand the differences between them.  Do they both take standard dies or are they both proprietary?  I know the 650 is auto indexing and the 500 manual, but what else is different between them? 

 

I would also consider a Hornady L-N-L AP if I found one.  Any pros over the Dillon?  Do they accept any dies or must I use Hornady? 

 

I assume all the machines are a bit finicky to set up but once that's accomplished they run like buttah.  Am I wrong in that?  Will either company's machine need more or less twiddling as time moves on? 

 

Thanks and I look forward to a civil discussion...

 

C

[ronhonda 86]

Dillon 650 with all the doodads. FTW!

Auto indexing, case feeder, strong mounts, bullet tray, takes regular dies, don't need the low powder sensor (waste IMHO) and LIFETIME warranty. I use a mix of Dillon, Redding, and Lee dies on my 650. Caliber changes in 10 minutes or less.(get complete caliber change kits) You break anything, call Dillon and they will replace it.

[Heavyopp 167]

The hornady isn't  a bad setup either --  

 

How far into progressive do you want to go?

 

I spent 20+ years using a single stage rock chucker -- Now I have a Hornady LNL and a Dillon 650 but I don't have the Dillon setup at the moment

 

 

  I feed my own cases and bullets on the hornady -- I also hand prime separately -- I just hate priming on a press -- never liked it

 

Anyway,  doesn't bother me doing some steps by hand an it's way faster than the single stage  

[Scorpio64 5,156]

You dont want a "progressive" press, you want a solid republican press !    Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

[PeteF 1,044]

Unless money is a major concern, I would skip the 550.  A 650 or a LNL even without the bells and whistles can turn out 3-400 rounds an hour without too much effort.

Both are good both have crap loads of addon improvements.  It really breaks down to,  Do you like red or do you like blue?

[silverc6 0]

Also depends on are you going to add a case feeder or not. The Hornady case feeder system seems to jam & needs tweeking often. The Dillon 650 system is a lot smoother & have less issues. If you are not loading a ton of ammo, the AP is fine. Otherwise, I think your $ is better spent on the Dillon.

[Bully 749]

An update...

 

I've had time today.  A bit too much actually.  Did a little research.  Don't want the 650 as it's apparently a pain to switch calibers.  I shoot about 4-500 rounds per month between several guns. 

 

Looks like it'll be between the Hornady L-N-L AP or the Dillon 550.  Any advice skewed that way will be appreciated.

 

C

[AS350Driver 56]

The 650 is not hard at all to change calibers. I can change calibers on mine in no more than 5-10 minutes tops.

[ronhonda 86]

An update...

 

I've had time today.  A bit too much actually.  Did a little research.  Don't want the 650 as it's apparently a pain to switch calibers.  I shoot about 4-500 rounds per month between several guns. 

 

Looks like it'll be between the Hornady L-N-L AP or the Dillon 550.  Any advice skewed that way will be appreciated.

 

C

If going from large primer to small primer, changing the primer assembly takes about 5 minutes.

All the other parts if you have a complete quick change takes about 2-3 minutes tops.

[Steve_G 51]

The 650 is not hard at all to change calibers. I can change calibers on mine in no more than 5-10 minutes tops.

 

Agreed. It's really no big deal to change calibers. I jumped into reloading with a 650, best decision I ever made.

[T Bill 649]

I wouldn't kick the 650 under the bed.  Better unit than the 550 by far.  You need to figure out how much you are willing to spend on a press.  I would consider the 650 vs the LNL. In progressive presses I have a LNL and an old Hornady Projector.  Like them both.  Ultimate Reloader has some good reviews worth investigating.  I attached another opinion, don't remember the author, good reading here too!  Good Luck with your decision.

dillonLeeHornadyComparison.pdf

[Respect2A 0]

What calibers do you plan on loading?

What amounts per month/year of said calibers?

Do you like to reload?

Do you have time to reload or do you want to make a lot of ammo quickly?

How often do you plan on changing between calibers?

Do you plan on using a case feeder?

What is your budget?

 

 

That info is required before a good recommendation can be made. Until then it's just a red vs blue argument.

 

For what it's worth I have a Dillon and 2 Hornady presses. I've also loaded on a Dillon 1050.

[Old School 611]

Chris, Go Dillon or go home!

 

Bring some components and come and try my 550B

[ronhonda 86]

Buy once, cry once.

But you will be crying tears of Blue joy with the 650.

[WJFortier 10]

I recently picked up a Hornady LNL AP from Optics Planet.  They had a 10% site-wide savings event AND free shipping so I gobbled it up.  I had been going back and forth between the Dillon 650 and the Hornady LNL AP for a while and finally chose the LNL AP due to the quick die changes and the case/bullet feeding option.  I did an decent amount of research to ensure when I purchased it I had all the other items needed coming in at the same time.  The LNL AP comes in a huge box but unfortunately not everything you need to start loading comes with it.  Even so I'm still finding things I could use to make my life easier.  If you are considering the LNL AP you’ll need to know what calibers you plan on using it for.  In my case it’s .223, .40 and 9mm.  I have a Lee turret that is solely set up for .308. 

 

Additional things you’ll need:

• Shell plates for the calibers you plan on loading
• Bullet feeder dies for the automatic bullet feeder
• Case feeder plates appropriate for what your loading
• Powder through Expander (PTX) or Powder funnel (to flare your cases)

Nice to have:

• Ultramount (www.inlinefabrication.com) raises your press approx. 9.5” (no bending over to run the press)
• LED light within the press to see what’s going on

The LNL AP comes with 10 of their die bushings which work with any 7/8” x 14 die threads.  I currently have all Lee dies and have yet to encounter a problem.  My biggest issue is trying to optimize the 5 press stations.  The automatic powder drop, bullet feeder die and the powder cop take up three stations right off the bat.  The addition of a PTX in the powder feeder is necessary if using the auto bullet feeder.  It flares the case rim just enough to support the base of the bullet until it gets seated in the next station.  As you can see the station availability starts to dwindle quickly.  If you are a crimper like I am, consider seat/crimping dies as well. 

 

Assembly is fairly straight forward and the included DVD helps too.

 

Lifetime warranty just like Dillon

 

You’ll also get 500 free rounds with your purchase but the promotion ends soon.

I almost forgot.  You get a really cool tin sign too!  (hey, it makes a great target backing)

[Bully 749]

What calibers do you plan on loading?

--45acp, 357mag, and 9mm

What amounts per month/year of said calibers?

--4-500 45acp, 1-200 357mag, 1-2009mm

Do you like to reload?

--Yup

Do you have time to reload or do you want to make a lot of ammo quickly?

--I make the time. 2-3hours per week

How often do you plan on changing between calibers?

--Whenever necessary. Component supply dictates

Do you plan on using a case feeder?

--Not at this time

What is your budget?

--I'd like to stay around 600

WJFortier, thanks for the write up/review of the L-N-L. Much appreciated.

 

C

[alec.mc 180]

Whoever told you the 650 was difficult to change calibers is smoking crack.

 

It's stupid easy.

 

You buy extra tool heads for your dies, they are like 20 bucks each. You set your dies once, and that's it.

 

Example, when I go from 38 special to 38 short colt, it literally takes me 30 seconds.

 

If I need to change everything out, like going from 38 to 45 you need to change out everything it's maybe 10 minutes.

[alec.mc 180]

also to note, most people buy dillon... well because dillon is the best, great customer service, and since alot of shooters have them if you are in a pinch with a broken part you can borrow from a friend, until dillon sends you the part free of charge.

[Kingsoverqueens 10]

I went with Dillon and have no regrets, zero in fact. 

 

Vinny @ Hunters World (NJGF vendor) has a discount buying program and it terrific to deal with.

 

I think the best advice is to see both in action.  I saw a red one and I saw a blue one.  I picked blue. 

[Kingsoverqueens 10]

also to note, most people buy dillon... well because dillon is the best, great customer service, and since alot of shooters have them if you are in a pinch with a broken part you can borrow from a friend, until dillon sends you the part free of charge.

Boom!

[locochinoloco 0]

I recently had to decided between the 650 and L-N-L as well... and went with the L-N-L after reading a ton of reviews ... and this is what is cost me to setup for 9/45 without the dies and other stuff you already have.

 

Just so you can really compare the cost of a full setup.

 

Hornady Case Feeder Plate(Small Pistol)   $34.00 

Hornady Lock N Load Automatic Case Feeder(110 VT)   $323.00 

Hornady Improve Shell Plate ( 30 Luger, 9mm Luger, 9X21, 9X18 Makarov, 38 Super Auto, 9X23)   $35.00 

Hornady Sure-Loc Die Locking Ring 7/8"-14 Thread package of 6 x 2 $35.58 

Hornady Lock-N-Load AP Progressive Press Shellplate #45 (45 ACP, 45 Winchester Magnum) $37.99 

Hornady Lock-N-Load Die Bushings Package of 10 $40.99 

Total: $507

 

Hornady Lock N Load Automatic Case Feeder(110 VT)   $323.00 

Hornady Improve Shell Plate ( 30 Luger, 9mm Luger, 9X21, 9X18 Makarov, 38 Super Auto, 9X23)   $35.00 

Hornady Lock-N-Load AP Progressive Press Automatic Case Feeder Plate Large Pistol $28.49 

Total$ 387

 

You should take up the offer on trying out the press.  I'm pretty happy with my purchase, but I've always wondered if the 650 would have been better.

[Heavyopp 167]

also to note, most people buy dillon... well because dillon is the best, great customer service, and since alot of shooters have them if you are in a pinch with a broken part you can borrow from a friend, until dillon sends you the part free of charge.

 

Hornady service is just as good --  You can actually talk to someone if you call

 

One thing  I will say -- the Hornady, without all the feeders, doesn't have all that many parts to go wrong --  The mechanism to rotate the shell plate is stupid simple

 

There's just not that much moving parts till you add all the accessories --  

 

Now I can only speak for the Hornady priming system -- Honestly, I don't like it but I never ever used a press to seat primers, just not enough "feel"

 

But my biggest gripe with the hornady priming system ---  You never see a primer until the case is done -- There's no way to verify that a primer was actually in place to be seated 

 

The few times I did prime with the press it was always a guessing game --  Is there a primer there? Did it seat fully? Is it flipped?

 

 Just too much to bother with for me -- I hand prime -- This way I'm sure the primer is right on every case

[raz-0 1,259]

I wouldn't bother with the 550. It's not a bad machine, but it is manual indexing, and most kabooms I ahve seen have been done on the 550 due to lack of vigilance on the reloader's part. I've gotten distracted on my lock-n-load, but the auto indexing means it's a squib and not an overcharge. 

 

As a LNL-AP owner, at this point and time I would say go with a dillon 650 and cough up the extra cash unless you never plan on adding a case feeder. Especially if you are going to start loading pistol as adding a set of dies and the pistol rotor to the powder measure easts up a good chunk of the difference, and that's what you have to add to get the same functionality out of the box. 

 

Since I got mine, the price gap has narrowed significantly, and the only positives I would list are the simpler primer system is still nice to have, the captured primer system out of the box is nice to have, and the ez-ject system brings case ejection up to par rather than having it be some dark magic you had to perform to make it eject things right. Customer service has gotten worse, and never has been as good as Dillon's. Sorry, but the number of things I haven't gotten form them that they said they would send is too high. That's actually improved from often failing to ship something and them telling you that you weren't supposed to get anything, to being able to tell you they don't know why that warranty replacement item has never, and will never ship and all they can do is cancel it and you can go through the whole warranty process from scratch to reorder it because they can't approve an order without your issue going through trouble shooting. Even without that, when they have a bad lot of parts, their process is to replace a problem part with a part form the same lot until they have gone through all of them rather than tossing out bad stuff. Talk to victims of the bad rotor hubs and the out of spec primer rams. They have also been stubborn as hell about some mis-designed stuff. Like the powder through expander system. It NEEDS the little turnbuckle like device to work well all the time. You can have the most unusable ammo out there, you aren't getting one without paying for it unless they changed something. Then there is the powder through expander for .40. It didn't work right to the point they re-profiled it. You can't get a replacement under warranty for the part designed like crap, even if you want to pay, it is the EXACT same model number, so you can't tell if you will get it or not from any given vendor. They wouldn't even assure me that if I bought it form them, I'd get the right revision.   Also, what has been happening with much greater frequency, even before the panic, is missing parts from boxes. They just send out incomplete items. I bought a couple powder measures from them (which I still would mainly because even after shenanigans they are significantly cheaper for their performance than any other measure on the market, especially if you catch a sale), and both boxes were missing parts.. not even the same parts. If I didn't have spare parts already and a bench mount, I would have been dead in the water right out of the box. I know at least a couple people who had similar issues with their press kit. 

 

Then there's the issue of the case feeder. The actual device is fine, it is essentially a clone of the dillon one or vice versa. What ISN'T the same is the mounting and the linkage to feed them on the press. The Dillon set up is just a LOT better. I've got mine sorted, but there's a lot of built by me stuff onit to make it behave consistently so I don't have to constantly fiddle and adjust it to keep it running. The dillon is like that out of the box. 

 

I can't even imagine adding a bullet feeder given the hassle the case feeder was, and certainly not hornady's clone of the RBCS one. 

 

I know this sounds like major bashing, but it's not really. In plain old form, it's a pretty capable machine, and not a PITA by design. However, their QA/QC has dropped, and certain aspects were never that hot like getting warranty items shipped to you are still around even if they evolved. I never much minded because the few items that would regularly be issues were pretty cheap and I just stocked spares. Their CS is not something I would like subjecting a new person to, and with their increasing rate of mispacked items, they WILL be having to deal with it. Also the increasing rate of defective parts that just get assembled anyway is troubling. 

 

THe price difference is also VERY, VERY small when you get down to it. from midway, to get a LNLAP, the pistol rotor and emasure, and a set of lee dies for one pistol caliber is $504. To get a dillon xl650 from brian enos is $567, and if you talk to a local dillon dealer like Vinny, you may be able to do even better. 

[Heavyopp 167]

I had a very different experience from Hornady customer service -- 

 

My press came broken by UPS --  Bought from Natchez -- I fought with Natchez for a few days, they would have taken it back but had no replacement --which was unacceptable

 

3 minute phone call to Hornady solved it all -- And they knew the press was broken by UPS, I told them --they didn't care --  I had the new part in a few days

 

 

 

RAZ-O --  what was the out of spec primer ram thing?  I'd swear my large PP ram is too short --  Can't get a primer to seat fully -- even tried the dime under the ram trick

 

 

My reason for Hornady over Dillon --  Availability and caliber changes --  although, after seeing the dillon 650 do a caliber change in person, It's not terrible going from large to small 

[Bully 749]

Again, I thank everyone on here for their opinions. I truly do appreciate them.

 

Any other first hand feed back is always appreciated.

 

C

[JackDaWack 2,895]

another vote for the L-N-L, it was cheaper and i have zero complaints about it. comes with 100 bucks worth of bullets

 

the progressive aspect of the press is really strait forward and simple.. the powder drop is one of the best and it comes with everything you need for both large and small cases, and is again the most strait forward press.. you really don't even need to use the instructions.

[Respect2A 0]

I'll be the odd man out and suggest the LnL or the Dillon Square Deal B. He doesn't plan on loading rifle and doesn't plan on using a case feeder.

 

The square deal is bullet proof and simple to use. It's a progressive so you don't need to manually index it. Brass, bullet, crank it. Out pops a finished round. I load approximately 400 an hour on it.

 

My big issue with the LnL is the case feeder unit. As mentioned above the bowl is fine, it's getting them to the shell plate that's the problem. Other than that the quick change is nice, the powder drop is great and the primer feeding mechanism beats the Dillon 650. With the LnL you can also load rifle if you want to.

 

If you want to load lots of ammo and use a case feeder go 650. The 650 without case feeder sucks. It't like a car without tires. You NEED the case feeder on the 650

 

In my opinion if you could slap a hornady powder measure on it and change the way the unspent primers ski jump out of it the 650 would be the go to press every time.

[PeteF 1,044]

another vote for the L-N-L, it was cheaper and i have zero complaints about it. comes with 100 bucks worth of bullets

 

the progressive aspect of the press is really strait forward and simple.. the powder drop is one of the best and it comes with everything you need for both large and small cases, and is again the most strait forward press.. you really don't even need to use the instructions.

 

I'd go further and say throw the directions away. I spent an hour looking for a part mentioned in the instructions,

After which I found the described part wasn't even used on my version of the press.

 

Go online and watch the setup videos, much more helpful.

[raz-0 1,259]

I had a very different experience from Hornady customer service -- 

 

My press came broken by UPS --  Bought from Natchez -- I fought with Natchez for a few days, they would have taken it back but had no replacement --which was unacceptable

 

3 minute phone call to Hornady solved it all -- And they knew the press was broken by UPS, I told them --they didn't care --  I had the new part in a few days

 

 

 

RAZ-O --  what was the out of spec primer ram thing?  I'd swear my large PP ram is too short --  Can't get a primer to seat fully -- even tried the dime under the ram trick

 

 

My reason for Hornady over Dillon --  Availability and caliber changes --  although, after seeing the dillon 650 do a caliber change in person, It's not terrible going from large to small 

 

Your experience was likely because they just took a whole press out of the production line. You might have even made some other people happy by freeing up small parts they can't get otherwise. 

 

I haven't had a primer ram problem because my press predates the issue. The reason why the dime doesn't fix it is because your problem isn't form peening the press frame (I've loaded enough rounds I'm heading into that world).  Your problme is the ram is too short/ the shoulder that it stops on is positioned incorrectly and you get less seating than just below flush. Sounds like you may have that problem.

 

You can either order a primer ram from a 3rd party and hope it is in spec. You can get on the horn with hornady repeatedly and hope they eventually offer to machine you one that works, or you can try to keep getting them to send you the part under warranty until you get one that works. Which if they haven't caught up with orders may be quite some time. 

 

AT this point, most of the things I have called them about recently they will not consider sending me replacement parts unless I send the whole machine in. It's not like I'm up their butt about things a lot either. I've had to call them all of about 4 times excluding when I'm jsut calling in the hopes they have purchasable spares none of their resellers have in stock. 

 

First item was my powder measure out of the box had casting flaws in it. They said it should still work and didn't want to replace it. It caused the press to run rough, but technically worked. I argued with them that this wasn't acceptable, they blamed my setup, argued some more, and they said they would send out a replacement. Never did. 

 

Second item was for help getting the ejector wire to work. They said it should work fine, but if it wasn't I would have to bend it up some. They sent me a spare I didn't ask for, I guess in case I screwed it up. 

 

Third item was trying to get it to run with 9mm and called about the shell plate being too tight. They blamed my bending the ejection wire. I told them I already tried the stock spare I had and no go, and that they should really consider my original suggestion as I could take the shell plate off the press, load it up with brass in every station, chuck it across the room like a ninja throwing star, and all the pieces of brass would stay in it. At that point they told me my problem was that I bought the combo plate. I asked if I could exchange it for a dedicated plate. They informed me there was no dedicated plate, and then changed their story to say they had tightened up the plate at the request of the 38 super guys. I said ok, but what do I do if I want to load 9mm. They said I could send it in and they'd fix it in the machine shop for $20. I said nice warranty policy there. $20 + shipping for something that doesn't work right out of the box. At which point they told me they would jsut be polishing it with an aggressive honing compound, and I could try it myself, but they couldn't fix it if I removed too much metal. I proceeded to fix it myself. 

 

Fourth item was a question about a missing part for the ez-ject conversion kit, turned out the instructions were misleading and I didn't need it, which was what I suspected. Concluded successfully. 

 

Fifth item was regarding a spare part for the case feeder linkage as the design seemed doom to destroy one of the key pieces regularly. They said they absolutely would not sell me a spare. They said I must have it set up wrong. SInce it appears to be the exact same way in everyone's videos of their case feeders, and I'm not the only one with the problem, I'm pretty sure it isn't me. I've modified the crap out of my case feeder mounts and mechanism to avoid problems engineered in. I'm also not the only one who came up with the same fix to the problem I wanted a spare to insure against downtime from. 

 

As for the bad hub castings, I know at least one person I know on a forum got three of them in a row as replacement parts. They all broke rapidly, and he wasn't a card carrying member of team push it harder. 

[Vlad G 345]

Because Raz-0 bashed my 550 I have to chime in.  Most kabooms I've seen have actually been from careless ultra-speed 650s. I'd also venture a guess that raz-0 and I have loaded approximately the same numbers of rounds on our respective presses and I never had a squib or double charge, but I'm pretty sure he had a few squibs.

 

That said, I bought the 550 because I was cheap and when I bought it, it made sense. If I started from scratch today it would be a 650, but I don't feel the difference is worth it for me to buy another press at this point.