What do They Know?

[Newtonian 453]

What does the state of NJ know about the guns we possess? I'm talking about you, Mr. X, who owns a few rifles, or you, Mr. Y, who owns only semiautomatic handguns, or you, Mr. Z, who has a nice collection of all kinds of stuff?

 

How did NJ get this information?

 

Where is this information stored?

 

How is this information likely to be used against you ("youze") in the event of a ban of some sort?

 

Disclaimer: I am not advocating anything illegal, or asking for strategies that would circumvent current or future NJ gun law. I'm just asking what I'm asking. So all you Pollyannas,  whose underwear turn sweaty when such questions are asked, fear not. Just the facts.

[tj462nj 32]

they can only follow handgun sales, by pistol permits submitted, they have no idea about long guns or inherited guns

[greatgunstatenj 32]

they can only follow handgun sales, by pistol permits submitted, they have no idea about long guns or inherited guns

Are FFLs required to keep COEs on file for long guns? If so that would be there first stop.

[CMJeepster 2,780]

What about inspection of a dealer's COE records? I'm not trying to start anything, but having never (yet) bought a long gun in this state, I'm not experienced.

[CMJeepster 2,780]

Ninja'd.

[tj462nj 32]

question is what do they know, not what can they find out. they don't have the man power to try and find out. when a nics is done, they ask long gun or handgun, not how many long guns. on audits, I've never had an atf agent or state police ask to see any coe. they don't have the man power to do their ffl audits as often as they are required to, never mind try to follow up on long guns

[CMJeepster 2,780]

...Until someone in the legislature wants to propose a bill to find out and then...

[RecessedFilter 222]

I think it's a question of 'what do they not know' than 'what do they know'.

[intercooler 41]

they also have been making FFL's  keeping 2 books so going to discover "assault weapons" is made a lot easier

[siderman 1,139]

Time is on their side regardless of manpower.If they want to know they can-and will. NJ is relentless with its dis-respect of the 2A and we didnt get this way overnight and its not over yet.

[Respect2A 0]

Do everyone a favor. Toss all your coes

[Barms 98]

Every time I read. "How many NJSP would it take? They don't have the man power.l"

 

Why would it have to be NJSP? They would just hire temp workers and every FFL could be visited in less than a month wth a dozen workers. C'mon man. Outsourcing. Knock on doors just like the census workers.

 

I'm not saying a home owner would answer a civilians questions but it certainly would be an efficient first "check the box" move.

 

Don't be aloof to the "they don't have the manpower" line.

[Newtonian 453]

This is probably the most interesting thread I've ever started, if I must say so myself. Thanks to your thoughtful comments my innocent question has turned into a deep, deep conversation that goes to the very heart of the future of gun rights in NJ. And if I might add, in the U.S. generally.

 

There are three main schools of thought expressed here. One says that "they" know everything about handguns, but not long guns, due to the salmon-colored registration forms we're left with after every purchase."

 

Another groups says they know everything because of the COEs we complete when purchasing long guns.

 

A third group believes that the COE information is real, but doesn't matter because "they don't have the manpower to follow up."

 

True. They don't have the manpower to follow up on every long gun purchase and back-track that to Mr. X, Mr. Y, and Mr. Z. 

 

But they don't have to do that. Totalitarianism has not survived for thousands of years because the "government" was everywhere, always, like the God of the catholic catechism, "all knowing, all loving." (Although with modern surveillance technology, the omniscient part will very soon be true).

 

All they have to do is find a few people and subject them to show trials. Sentence an accountant here, a fast food chef there, an iron worker here, a shoe sales man there, a truck driver, a doctor, a lawyer, a housewife, to 10 years in jail and watch how fast everybody turns in their stuff. Watch how quickly people on the outside become eager to turn us in, lest they also be convicted of being knowing accessories or facilitators.

 

That's the secret of totalitarianism. They can't possibly control everybody through brute force. Think of the Soviet Union, from the Elbe to Vladivostok. Way to big to govern, but through terror and fear they can reach almost everyone, everywhere.

[djg0770 481]

Whatever they know, I know they don't know how much tinfoil I have so I can make all the hats I could ever possibly need.  Might even have enough to paper the entire inside of the house.

[Michael2013 56]

Question to FFL - don't you submit firearms type and serial for NICs?

[pbkid6974 1]

This is probably the most interesting thread I've ever started, if I must say so myself. Thanks to your thoughtful comments my innocent question has turned into a deep, deep conversation that goes to the very heart of the future of gun rights in NJ. And if I might add, in the U.S. generally.

 

There are three main schools of thought expressed here. One says that "they" know everything about handguns, but not long guns, due to the salmon-colored registration forms we're left with after every purchase."

 

Another groups says they know everything because of the COEs we complete when purchasing long guns.

 

A third group believes that the COE information is real, but doesn't matter because "they don't have the manpower to follow up."

 

True. They don't have the manpower to follow up on every long gun purchase and back-track that to Mr. X, Mr. Y, and Mr. Z. 

 

But they don't have to do that. Totalitarianism has not survived for thousands of years because the "government" was everywhere, always, like the God of the catholic catechism, "all knowing, all loving." (Although with modern surveillance technology, the omniscient part will very soon be true).

 

All they have to do is find a few people and subject them to show trials. Sentence an accountant here, a fast food chef there, an iron worker here, a shoe sales man there, a truck driver, a doctor, a lawyer, a housewife, to 10 years in jail and watch how fast everybody turns in their stuff. Watch how quickly people on the outside become eager to turn us in, lest they also be convicted of being knowing accessories or facilitators.

 

That's the secret of totalitarianism. They can't possibly control everybody through brute force. Think of the Soviet Union, from the Elbe to Vladivostok. Way to big to govern, but through terror and fear they can reach almost everyone, everywhere.

i would hope that if such trials happened WE THE PEOPLE would stand up for OUR rights. i know i am NEVER going to willingly turn in anything.

 

come and take them from my cold dead hands.

[djg0770 481]

Question to FFL - don't you submit firearms type and serial for NICs?

 

No - they only submit whether the firearm is a handgun.  Serial number is never transmitted to NICS

[tj462nj 32]

nics only asks if hangun or long gun, they never ask how many long guns or serial #'s

[PeteF 1,044]

Blah, blah, blah

 

They have no idea what you HAVE. They have a pretty good idea what you PURCHASED

But between horrible boat accidents, firearms rusting away to nothong and gun buybacks I don't have any of the firearms I purchased. Want to search for them? Get a warrant.

[Newtonian 453]

Blah, blah, blah

 

They have no idea what you HAVE. They have a pretty good idea what you PURCHASED

But between horrible boat accidents, firearms rusting away to nothong and gun buybacks I don't have any of the firearms I purchased. Want to search for them? Get a warrant.

OK here's the warrant. Issued by special judicial order, funded by a grant from the NJ Municipality Safety Coalition. Now step aside. I may not find that AR I know you have, but I'll destroy your house trying to find it. 

 

"Stop resisting!!!"

"Stop reaching for my gun!!!"

[Newtonian 453]

And tonight at eleven we looking the home of John doe....killed while attacking officers doi a survey...found to have an arsenal...news at eleven...

 

It's that easy.

It's not only "that easy," it's accepted as gospel by 98% of the idiots who watch TV news.

 

It's even easier than you think: "Suspected terrorist who had ten guns and 15,000 rounds of ammunition in his basement." Yeah. They counted every BB pellet and every slingshot. 

[Newtonian 453]

I don't see the thread as tinfoil material...sure it is improbable...but possible, hence it should be explored.

 

Rationally one should be prepared, for a possibility no matter how remote, as long as it is reasonable....to hide from it is foolhardy in my opinion...so discussion as to what they know or could know or could do to find out, is valid and not tinfoil.

 

Essentially if you wanted that database created for future use...it could be ...easily...

 

That all being said....do we think the government and the way it is so disorganized in the bureaucratic realm...could pull it off...

 

I once heard from a Leo doing an inquiry about some handguns in Trenton that it is a mess....they are lucky they know where file cabinets are...true? I don't know....Hersey....possibly....

 

Who does know how the firearms unit of the NJSP truly operates...that is what * I * would really like to know...

There's no incentive to do justice to the guys in Trenton, Irvington, Newark, Paterson, etc. They are the life blood of the criminal justice system. Catch and release. All those lawyers, court clerks, "judges," stenographers would be out of work.

 

When they get arrested the gun charge is the first thing pleaded away.

 

They know you and I will never pull a gun on a bodega worker, so they get us for walking across the street carrying a hollow point .22 round. 3-10 mandatory, no parole. That is the sick state of "criminal justice" in the la-la land known as New Jersey.

[Golf battery 1,223]

Whatever anybody thinks They know every purchase except for person to person. Thats why they require log books. As nick wrote I have the problem that i farm so leaving is multiplied how hard it is to leave for me. And i own the property. Even worse. The day i retire and sell. Arizona all the way. 20 more years. Unless i win megamillions. See ya.

[KramD52 0]

Great informative thread.  Though I have to admit that I haven't been this afraid since I saw the movie Jaws when I was about 12. 

[PK90 3,573]

This thread is laughable and irritating at the same time. Some of you have that tin foil hat on way too tight. There are ten times the amount of handguns not known by LE, and will be ever be known, in the hands of NJ Citizens, ie. inheritance, transients, illegal transfers. Not to mention all the long gun sales which are fifty times the handgun sales.

 

No gun information is transmitted via NICS. The COEs and P2Ps are kept by the dealer only. Mine are filed with the 4473 in chronological order. It was take a massive amount of man hours to go through everyone to find a name. It would be easier to scan the bound book for the name. Still, some dealers have hundreds of thousands of transactions recorded. And do you really think that they can be sure that person still has the firearm transferred years ago. It could have been sold, lost, stolen, etc. The Popo needs more than a handwritten transaction to get a warrant.

 

Also, as told to me recently by ATF (I have not yet checked into this) the NJSP FIU is not interested in even retaining the COEs or P2Ps when the dealer goes out of business. That paperwork is destroyed. The ATF doesn't want it either. The paperwork just takes up space.

[PK90 3,573]

...Why not check with the FIU to see if the took the current P2P info and put it in an electronic database...?

 

Of course they do. The P2P is a "Form of Register", and has been for almost 50 years. But, it is only a small portion of the amount of firearms in NJ.

[n4p226r 105]

I am sorry I TOTALLY DISAGREE.........

 

The NJSP and the FEDS KNOW EXACTLY what rifle and long guns you possess from purchase through an FFL..........

 

Did all the BOUND BOOKS AND 4473 forms just up and disappear?  It is VERY VERY easy to discern what was purchased by whom and when....

 

All it takes is time and some manpower...if they want to know, they can and WILL..........nothing easier to say than that.

 

What they cannot track is person to person sales, however I do NOT want to be the guy that tell someone, yeah well I had that gun but I sold it to some guy and cant find the COE....  :0

or I sold that gun to some FFL somewhere but I do not recall whom....

 

To indicate there there is not record or path of investigation for long arms is foolhardy to say the least IMO

 

 

so you are saying we should go buy some compliant rifles and shotguns in PA?

[BlueLineFish 615]

Realistically the only stuff they can't keep track of is long guns done ftf. No paperwork goes anywhere

[PK90 3,573]

Realistically the only stuff they can't keep track of is long guns done ftf. No paperwork goes anywhere

 

How about all the firearms (handguns and long guns) that were left to people upon death? How about all the firearms (handguns and long guns) that people brought into the state from out of state? What about all the firearms (handguns and long guns) that were acquired prior to 1968? How are these registered?

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot 358]

I remember listening to this NPR story last year on how BATFE traces guns.

 

It's interesting to learn and understand the various forms (4473, 3310.4, P2P's, COE, A&D books) and what gets sent where/when and how it is stored (electronic/paper) and how they are currently used.