"Warning - This Gun Will Shoot Without Mag In Place" !!!!

[71ragtopgoat 23]

All that I can say from my own experience running heavy equipment and cranes is that. The most dangerous time is when you think you have it down pat and are comfortable with it but you have not been around it long enough know how to really operate it. This tends to be the danger zone this guy did not make it through. It became like a pen to this man. Just another tool.

He got over confident and ignored what it really was.

This is something I think we can all learn from.

[djg0770 481]

The most dangerous time is when you think you have it down pat and are comfortable with it but you have not been around it long enough know how to really operate it.

 

My father said the same thing about driving a car. He was not concerned with my first six months of driving but was concerned when I had passed that 6 month period and I had thought driving had become second nature...

[AtlanticCounty 0]

Sad situation, but i can't understand why the muzzle was pointed at his face. Sounds odd.

 

More on the story:

http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/arti ... 03286.html

[rscalzo 3]

Is there a rule or a guideline as to what condition the LEO is to carry their firearm in?

 

Ours was never put in writing but training took care of those issues. Normal carry with the S&W SA was a chambered round with the hammer down. If they had an empty chamber no one would know but them. The G23 are simpler and have a chambered round.

 

And I take it no thumb safety on those Glocks?

Not normally but they can be specially ordered. Rare to actually see one though.

 

The dept I worked for there was no set rules, about 90% of the guys carried in condition one, AKA 'ready to rock'.

Full magazine, round in chamber, safety off, hammer back (beretta 92F).

 

That is not a Condition One carry as the safety would be required to be engaged. This isn't possible in the standard 92F as engaging the safety also drops the hammer. Any department allowing their personnel to walk around in what would essentially be a Condition Zero is staring a major liability issue in the face.

[Cylinder Head 22]

the fact that 9/10 NJ policemen can't hit the broadside of a barn with their weapons and it makes them extremely dangerous.

 

And you are basing this on what? Internet lore? I've yet to see any documentation this? Maybe you would like to outline your preformance during an actual deadly force incident?

 

 

Not internet lore, I'm at the Bullet Hole every weekend and I witness it for myself.

 

Obviously you're taking what I said personally, but if you know your own abilities to be above my observation then why would you be so upset?

 

Are you saying that the inability to hit targets center mass that I've personally witnessed somehow turns into tack-driving magic during a deadly force incident?

[DevsAdvocate 112]

What an IDIOT! Probably didn't even check to see if the chamber was cleared... ugh. 4 rules people, break more than one and you're dead.

[Shane45 807]

DA, Really? Calling a guy that lost his life in an accident an idiot publically? :roll: 2 Things here. We all know the rules, its preaching to the choir. As for the story, well lets keep in mind its a story. None of us know the absolute details of the circumstances surrounding the incident.

[wsl 2]

He is an idiot, plain and simple. More people die every year because of not paying attention to detail than is necessary. He forgot he was dealing with a dangerous weapon and became negligent. He might not have been an idiot in everything, but in handling his weapon, he was.

 

Here's how i can justify calling him an idiot in public...

 

1 - Did the firearm go off because of a malfunction? No

2 - Did he ignore the 4 basic rules that every firearm user are supposed to know? Yes

3 - Was he in a position of authority that by carrying said firearm, he should have known better than the average citizen? Yes.

4 - Regardless of his attitude, demeanor, past record, etc.... Did he make an idiotic mistake? Yes

5 - Could the mistake have been avoided? Yes.

 

Hence the idiot. And you can't call it an accident. Did he drop it? No, he showed negligence in understanding how his firearm worked and removed the mag without removing the round in the chamber. Mistake and accident aren't the same thing. Accidents happen. Mistakes can be avoided.

Condolences to his family, but trust me, his actions will serve for years to come on what NOT to do.

[Chad 3]

What an IDIOT! Probably didn't even check to see if the chamber was cleared... ugh. 4 rules people, break more than one and you're dead.

 

U mean break more than zero?

[Cylinder Head 22]

What an IDIOT! Probably didn't even check to see if the chamber was cleared... ugh. 4 rules people, break more than one and you're dead.

 

U mean break more than zero?

 

Regardless of whether or not there was technically a round in the chamber, the Officer in question broke Rule #1 by pointing the weapon at his face.

 

The firearm is ALWAYS LOADED.

[Shane45 807]

No, calling him an idiot in public is stupid, offensive and ignorant. I'm not hear to defend the blue line or anybody for that matter. However, I am dissappointed by the lack of simple respect. A few things to consider. Most cops are not Firearm enthusiasts and view their weapon the same a roofer views a hammer. Not everyone is mechanically inclined. I know very, very few people in this world tasked with dangerous jobs that didnt make a mistake somewhere along the line that could have been a game ender right then and there, especially when new on the job. What if, for example, he was already wrapped up in the typical LE BBB's and it was no accident! But those around him didnt want it to go down that way. And here we have the inet crowd calling him an idiot publically. Id make a bet you wouldnt say it to his partner face to face, so why would you say it at all?

[Old School 611]

No, calling him an idiot in public is stupid, offensive and ignorant. I'm not hear to defend the blue line or anybody for that matter. However, I am dissappointed by the lack of simple respect. A few things to consider. Most cops are not Firearm enthusiasts and view their weapon the same a roofer views a hammer. Not everyone is mechanically inclined. I know very, very few people in this world tasked with dangerous jobs that didnt make a mistake somewhere along the line that could have been a game ender right then and there, especially when new on the job. What if, for example, he was already wrapped up in the typical LE BBB's and it was no accident! But those around him didnt want it to go down that way. And here we have the inet crowd calling him an idiot publically. Id make a bet you wouldnt say it to his partner face to face, so why would you say it at all?

 

The following is a pro-LEO comment on the above post.

 

calling him an idiot in public is stupid, offensive and ignorant. -Agreed

 

I'm not hear to defend the blue line or anybody -Undecided if I agree

 

Most cops are not Firearm enthusiasts and view their weapon the same a roofer views a hammer. Not everyone is mechanically inclined. I know very, very few people in this world tasked with dangerous jobs that didnt make a mistake somewhere along the line that could have been a game ender right then and there, especially when new on the job.- So are you saying he was improperly trained and should not have put himself or others at risk by carrying a firearm? BTW your logic is faulty. Hammers are not designed to impart lethal force.

 

What if, for example, he was already wrapped up in the typical LE BBB's and it was no accident! - So now you are suggesting a cover-up?

 

Id make a bet you wouldnt say it to his partner face to face, so why would you say it at all? - And what are you saying here? LEO's cannot accept critizism?

 

Please don't support LE by propogating myths and generalizations. You are doing more harm than good.

[bbk 188]

I agree with Shane; though there is no doubt there is a lesson to be learned from this incident.

 

And to go along with Shane's comment, I have first hand experience with people who lack of situational awareness. When I was still in, the facility I worked at had USAF security forces (SPs) that provided static security for the secure facility. However, the SPs often tasked other zoomies or Army type to adhoc as SPs for months at a time [because the actual unit would rotate people for deployments, and didn't have enough manpower], and they would receive proper training (tactics, reaction drills, weapons).

 

One day, myself and some others were outside at the smoke hut, and we were on notice that the SPs were doing a small exercise simulating if someone breached the wire (the exercises not being uncommon). The OPFOR was positioned in the building at the time, and the SPs were tasked with approaching the individual with sidearms drawn. Now, this exercise was to include non-combatants in the form of passer-bys (like us outside getting a smoke), and work as an identify shoot/no-shoot situation... so, the SPs were using their flashlights to simulate their weapons. To our horror, one of the guys draws his actual loaded sidearm as he's ready to breach-- and I swear I've never seen that many smokers drop their cigarettes in unison. He got chewed by the senior NCO outside, then his direct supervisor, and by a few others I'm sure. Long story short? People who have had firearms safety ingrained in their minds are just as liable at making mental errors that could get people hurt.

 

I'm not defending the LEO involved, simply saying that sh-t happens, even to the best of people.

[Shane45 807]

I made no implication of improper training. Only the point that those here have a different view and likely far greater intimate knowledge of firearms. Most LE are not like us. No faulty logic here. You are erroneously bridging gaps across multiple points. BBK Clearly understood my point. As to your cover up comment, the POINT is we were not there and some consideration should be given to what we DONT know. I have no problem post morteming the accident, error mistake, to learn, teach, whatever but back to my original point, calling the guy an Idiot is disrespectfull. Simple as that. Its not about criticism. Its about not telling the mom whos baby is blind her kid has beutiful eyes! "propogating myths and generalizations" I do no such thing.

 

"calling him an idiot in public is stupid, offensive and ignorant. -Agreed" In the end you agree with the main intended point of my post. This is the only point that matters to me.

[KpdPipes 388]

the fact that 9/10 NJ policemen can't hit the broadside of a barn with their weapons and it makes them extremely dangerous.

 

And you are basing this on what? Internet lore? I've yet to see any documentation this? Maybe you would like to outline your preformance during an actual deadly force incident?

 

 

Not internet lore, I'm at the Bullet Hole every weekend and I witness it for myself.

 

Obviously you're taking what I said personally, but if you know your own abilities to be above my observation then why would you be so upset?

 

Are you saying that the inability to hit targets center mass that I've personally witnessed somehow turns into tack-driving magic during a deadly force incident?

 

So if you can Extrapolate the What 10?? 15?? cops that you have seen at the Bullaet hole to equate to the Thirty-Plus, THOUSAND other LEO's in this state, then i guess it would be permissable for me to Equate the many NON-LEO's who i have seen at other ranges do things like Muzzle Sweep, Shoot during Cold Range times, and other safety violations to Meaning all of you NOn-Cops shouldnt have access to firearms....

[maideneddie 35]

:angry-boxing: :violence-duel: :text-givemebeer:

[djg0770 481]

Gosh would somebody lock this already?

[Old School 611]

I made no implication of improper training. Only the point that those here have a different view and likely far greater intimate knowledge of firearms. Most LE are not like us. No faulty logic here. You are erroneously bridging gaps across multiple points. BBK Clearly understood my point. As to your cover up comment, the POINT is we were not there and some consideration should be given to what we DONT know. I have no problem post morteming the accident, error mistake, to learn, teach, whatever but back to my original point, calling the guy an Idiot is disrespectfull. Simple as that. Its not about criticism. Its about not telling the mom whos baby is blind her kid has beutiful eyes! "propogating myths and generalizations" I do no such thing.

 

"calling him an idiot in public is stupid, offensive and ignorant. -Agreed" In the end you agree with the main intended point of my post. This is the only point that matters to me.

 

Shane- We agree as well as disagree.

The

[Shane45 807]

Old School I think you are mistaking my comment to mean that not being an enthusiast translates to a lack of respect for the firearm. That is not the case. I am sure ALL LEO understand that basic fact. My point is that most do not have intimate knowledge of the mechanics, types, diferentiators, history like an enthusiasts does unless they are one. My experience which is probably a little broader than most, is that the average LEO sees it like I said, a tool. Thats it. It gets used within its scope. They have no interest beyond that. Now on the flip side, most of the LEO, state and federal I know are either slotted snipers, SWAT, trainers or operators etc etc. These guys of course are enthusiasts and know their platforms inside and out.(But except for the Pistolsmith for the USSS I know, they still dont like working on their own guns ) I understand you are abdicating from this thread but I just wanted to clear up my intended point.

 

Shane

[Ray Ray 3,566]

Don't take this the wrong way, but cops in my neck of the woods aren't the best of shots either. I've seen their targets, and my wife could do better.

[matt6669 71]

Don't take this the wrong way, but cops in my neck of the woods aren't the best of shots either. I've seen their targets, and my wife could do better.

 

If only she could do better in picking men........

[Ray Ray 3,566]

Don't take this the wrong way, but cops in my neck of the woods aren't the best of shots either. I've seen their targets, and my wife could do better.

 

If only she could do better in picking men........

 

EPIC FAIL!

[matt6669 71]

Don't take this the wrong way, but cops in my neck of the woods aren't the best of shots either. I've seen their targets, and my wife could do better.

 

If only she could do better in picking men........

 

EPIC FAIL!

 

You are an epic fail, I'm not sure why your calling me one though!

[maideneddie 35]

:violence-duel: :violence-stickwhack: :violence-smack:

[KpdPipes 388]

It all comes down to the difference between 2 words. "Qualifying" as opposed to "Training". NJ departments are mandated by the AG Guidelines to "Qualify" a minimum of twice a year, using mandadted courses of fire, times, and minimum scores. Many Departments Do not do ANY more than that, and some actively Discourage their officers from doing any "Training" even though it has been proven ever since the 86 Miami Shootour that the "Qualifying" mindset gets people killed. "Training" costs Money and time. "Training" needs to be MORE than twice a year. "Training" takes Dedication on the part of the Departmental and political Administrations, as well as the officers themselves. I know of dozens of departments who would not allow their officers to use Patrol Rifles because under the Ag Guidelines there are 2 more required shooting days. 40 rounds total, but it's the TIME that they baulk at. You guys dont get it..the Antis dont want US to be armed any more than Joe or Jane Citizen. If they could strip Off-duty ability they would in a heartbeat. If someone invented a 100% reliable Non-Lethal weapon for LE tomorrow, someone in the legilsature would be proposing a law to require it to be carried, and restrict Deadly Force ONLY when we've already been fired upon.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Whatever, I calls it like I sees it. Guns are a responsibility, and if some LEO can't hack it and remember to follow 4 simple rules, as well as not knowing how to clear a firearm shows me that he was either: 1. Incompetent, or 2. A moron.

 

But it's ok, he's a LEO, so it makes it all better. If this happened to some yahoo in his own home, we'd say the same thing: follow the rules, and show some damned safety and responsibility when handling a firearm.

[KpdPipes 388]

Whatever, I calls it like I sees it. Guns are a responsibility, and if some LEO can't hack it and remember to follow 4 simple rules, as well as not knowing how to clear a firearm shows me that he was either: 1. Incompetent, or 2. A moron.

 

But it's ok, he's a LEO, so it makes it all better. If this happened to some yahoo in his own home, we'd say the same thing: follow the rules, and show some damned safety and responsibility when handling a firearm.

 

 

So far NOBODY has said that.

[Maksim 1,504]

alright guys, play nice. =)

 

so far so good though.

 

i think kpd makes a great point... difference between qualifying and training.

 

Same thing with people at the range.... just because someone knows how a gun works doesnt mean they are the most proficient in combat techniques.

 

Yes, the guy did something foolish, and it was a mistake. He paid for the mistake with his life. The ones that suffer are his family.

 

Even though his actions are stupid, calling him an idiot publicaly.... is a bit disrespectful. This isnt like he lost his limb, or the ability to get it up..... he lost his life.

[Shane45 807]

Maksim, absolutely!

 

DA, it makes no difference he was LEO, if it was Bubba with a shotgun I would have exactly the same stance. Your statements indicate to me your not tracking here.

 

KDPipes correct me if I am mistaken but many Dept's say anything beyond X rounds provided by the dept is your dime and your time, right?

[Cylinder Head 22]

 

So if you can Extrapolate the What 10?? 15?? cops that you have seen at the Bullaet hole to equate to the Thirty-Plus, THOUSAND other LEO's in this state, then i guess it would be permissable for me to Equate the many NON-LEO's who i have seen at other ranges do things like Muzzle Sweep, Shoot during Cold Range times, and other safety violations to Meaning all of you NOn-Cops shouldnt have access to firearms....

 

My observations are of LEO's who are actually taking the time to "train" as you have laid out in a subsequent post. I could only imagine how terrible the ones that simply "qualify" are. The best LEO shooters are the pro-gunners or ex-mil, both of which are pretty rare in NJ.

 

The NON-LEO's who you've seen at other ranges are exercising their second amendment rights and haven't received even cursory training in firearms safety. Frankly I think it's silly if you to use that point as a counter argument, it's poorly thought out and just thrown out there. LEO's are tasked with protecting the public, and should be more than proficient with their firearms. It's another topic entirely but when I bought my first gun I was shocked that they were about to send me out the door without even running through "what to do, what not to do".

 

Regardless of whether the department funds more range time or suggests whether you train or not train, ability to shoot and shoot well is a job requirement for LEO's. I work in finance, to stay sharp and up to date I read the Wall Street Journal "on my time and on my dime" constantly, because that's what it takes to be good at my job.