Philadelphia Police Threaten To Kill Open Carrier

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

You know what, I never OC'd in downtown Atlanta. I would not suggest OC in New Orleans... or Phoenix either. It is just not necessary... so why?

 

... and you must have a CCW in PA to OC,

 

Seems to me he is making our collective fight harder by being a tool.

 

 

OK, one last retort and then I'm going to bed (now that everyone knows how old I am, the fact that I go to bed at this time shouldn't surprise anyone ).

 

You know what? I wouldn't OC in Philly either, because with age comes wisdom (at least for some). But thankfully this young firebrand, full of pi$$ and vinegar did - whatever his motives may have been. It has certainly made some people more aware. He did it with the foreknowledge that it could end the way that it did, and yet he still did it. I don't think he expects to gain personally from this - he's a kid and doen't have the resources to hire a really good attorney and I don't think he'd find one that would take it on contingency.

 

To call him a tool is doing him a disservice. How does our fight get harder by making more people aware that there is a fight going on? If we hide the issue from the public, no one becomes aware - God help us if we're not PC with our firearms. Geez, don't make a scene, you'll ruin it for all of us. Come on, that's pure BS and your in denial if you don't think the fight we have is already hard. He was doing NOTHING illegal (unlike NJ's poster boy for gun rights, and how quickly people were-and still are - ready to jump on his bandwagon). He was making people aware of his right to do so - something obviously even the police had no clue about. As I said, he may not have exercised the best judgement, but dammit, he was standing up for us all.

 

One last thing - you do not need a LTCF to OC in PA except in Philly (a city of the first class - and we know they're not talking social status) and in a vehicle.

 

Buenas Noches,

 

Pizza Bob

[Maksim 1,504]

OK, one last retort and then I'm going to bed (now that everyone knows how old I am, the fact that I go to bed at this time shouldn't surprise anyone ).

 

You know what? I wouldn't OC in Philly either, because with age comes wisdom (at least for some). But thankfully this young firebrand, full of pi$$ and vinegar did - whatever his motives may have been. It has certainly made some people more aware. He did it with the foreknowledge that it could end the way that it did, and yet he still did it. I don't think he expects to gain personally from this - he's a kid and doen't have the resources to hire a really good attorney and I don't think he'd find one that would take it on contingency.

 

To call him a tool is doing him a disservice. How does our fight get harder by making more people aware that there is a fight going on? If we hide the issue from the public, no one becomes aware - God help us if we're not PC with our firearms. Geez, don't make a scene, you'll ruin it for all of us. Come on, that's pure BS and your in denial if you don't think the fight we have is already hard. He was doing NOTHING illegal (unlike NJ's poster boy for gun rights, and how quickly people were-and still are - ready to jump on his bandwagon). He was making people aware of his right to do so - something obviously even the police had no clue about. As I said, he may not have exercised the best judgement, but dammit, he was standing up for us all.

 

One last thing - you do not need a LTCF to OC in PA except in Philly (a city of the first class - and we know they're not talking social status) and in a vehicle.

 

Buenas Noches,

 

Pizza Bob

 

 

bob, you are absolutely right. night. =)

[Soju 153]

I'm just going to throw this out there.

 

This first cop was wrong. Clearly wrong. And he was wrong for one major reason. He didn't know his job! It is his job, as a professional, to know the laws, know what he is suppose to enforce, AND know how to act and deal with people. He failed to do this because it would appear he is either NOT a professional, or he was failed by others who were suppose to teach/train him on his job.

 

If you were an accountant, and were being paid to manage finances and their taxes, and you didn't know the rules and laws, and they ended up getting audited, are you doing your job? If you worked construction, and didn't get the proper permits because you didn't know you needed them, are you doing your job? Absolutely not, and this is no different. He didn't do his job either because he didn't know how, or he felt like he could do what he wants because he's a cop. Either way...

 

I have dealt with a Philly cop once. I was working at a Philadelphia Eagles - New England Patriots game on the sidelines. Before the game I was chatting with an officer. Now I am a huge Patriots fan, but of course he didn't know it, and considering I looked like an employee of the stadium, he probably assumed I was an Eagles fan. Regardless he lacked all professionalism and told me "I wish I could just punch a Patriots fan in the face right now." (along with other expletives) His demeanor was quite similar to the officer in that audio. It is embarrassing that apparently the Philadelphia PD doesn't hold their officers to standards that even a place like Burger King would hold their employees too.

[njJoniGuy 2,131]

Gone are the days of Frank "Hermann Goering" Rizzo

But his spirit lives on

[Holeshot 3]

Sounds like it was close to condition red. The OC was legal and in the right but may have become a martyr for the cause. Sorry but that's a price I would not be willing to pay just to prove a point and get attention on the www.

[RecessedFilter 222]

He should have just followed the cops orders. Instead he questioned his orders and was not following them compliantly.

 

All the cops wanted to do was make sure his OC license/permit was legitimate and to make sure they didn't have some lunatic on their hands.

[RecessedFilter 222]

And by the way, I am not familiar with PA laws and it might have been mentioned in the previous 7 pages but I know you are allowed to OC in PA, but are you allowed to OC in Philly?

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

He should have just followed the cops orders. Instead he questioned his orders and was not following them compliantly.

 

All the cops wanted to do was make sure his OC license/permit was legitimate and to make sure they didn't have some lunatic on their hands.

 

 

No, they didnt even check his LTCF. Besides, checking to see if he has a license is illegal anyways (terry stop)

 

And the first move by the cop wasnt "May I see your license" (which would be illegal, anyways) but gun drawn.

 

 

 

And to top it all off, why would he want to see his license? The cop said it was illegal either way

[JC_68Westy 1,024]

and soon as the Constitution is Amended to include this required instruction all of us that are arguing on the side of our Rights as Americans will agree with your opinion.

+10000, I think too many NJ people are conditioned to accept legislated/regulated lives.

[SSlav 14]

I can't agree with this. If the LEO and OCer are both holstered, the LEO is equal. The LEO has to have the upper hand and take charge. The LEO wants to question the OCer for suspicion of illegal activity. Of course the LEO would draw and take charge. The OCer has a gun and the LEO does not know his intentions. If the LEO knew there was no illegal intentions there would be no reason to talk to the OCer to begin with.

 

Swept at the range is not equivalent to an LEO drawing on you.

 

And OC does not know LEO or his intentions. Carrying a firearm does not constitute a suspicious activity. There is absolutely no need for LEO to get involved or "take charge". How is this situation any different from racial profiling? No crime is being committed but the person "looks dangerous" or "does not look right to me". Its BS. The first cop on the scene is wrong. He is a foul mouthed a-hole that is not qualified to do the job that he is doing - neither temperamentally nor academically.

[bulpup 98]

It is perfectly resonable to expect that a LEO would know every single law about deadly weapons such as firearms in the city that they work. Knowing every single law is a lot to ask, but about guns in a holster? Thats just bad training.

[Dan 177]

IIRC, there are laws about transporting a loaded long arm, but nothing about an unloaded long arm.

 

(See, I dont know everything). =) that is what reference material is for.

 

Has to be in a case

[Turbofire 2]

One thing I'd like to add now that you people got me reading a bunch of stories/ watching videos on pafoa . In some cases guys are getting stopped and detained by the same officer more than once. That means they already sat on the side of the road doing the back and forth with the station song and dance and were educated on the law. The next time isn't ignorance, it's harrassment because they disagree with the law, and that is a criminal act.

 

A second encounter should go a little more like this: "Hey Jerry, we got a call about a guy carrying a gun, was that you at the diner just now? Ok well I know your on the up and up but as long as you choose to do that people are going to call and we have to follow up, Have a good one." END

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the philly cop "forgets" the law with the next OCer.

 

 

Just to balance things out here's one of the good guys:

[mrjam2jab 9]

 

I stated before that it was unrealistic to expect every LEO to know all the laws - and I stand by that. But when it comes to something potentially as deadly as firearms, there is good reason for them to be well versed in the law governing them. MPOTEC (Municipal Officers Training and Education Commission) realized that and specifically addressed the issue in their annual training agenda. I also pointed out that because of a previous encounter with this same OCer, the Philly PD generated their own internal document about the same topic. Obviously the mindset at the Philly PD about training is the same as it is about people's rights.

 

 

And considering the the initial stopping LEO is a SGT...he has obviously been around long enough to have seen BOTH of these documents. Complete and utter fail on the LEO's part.

[mipafox 438]

And by the way, I am not familiar with PA laws

 

You are completely right. Everything you said before this was stupid. Or uninformed and rabidly anti-gun. Take your pick.

[Bob B 103]

Pizza Bob is my hero.

[Dan 177]

A thought popped in my mind around this just now.

 

Would the LEO drawing down on the OCer here constitute "unlawful use of force"? The OCer is clearly within the law, and has a right not to be held at gunpoint by the LEO, particularly with both gun drawn and using language alluding that he is ready to kill the OCer.

[PK90 3,570]

In this incident, the police used "constructive authority". not "deadly force" when the pistol was drawn and pointed at the OC.

 

 

[Ray Ray 3,566]

What does OC stand for?

[SpecialK 193]

What does OC stand for?

 

Orange County, like where the choppers come from. duh.

[cubflyer50 1]

I should have chosen my words better when I said it was a stupid thing to do...I agree very strongly that we have our 2nd amendment rights and should exercise them....but when you oc in Philly you're basically asking for a confrontation from LE and as you see in the video Philly has their share of ignorant ones.....myself, I conceal simply because I don't want anyone knowing I carry....it also makes the average person in a liberal city with an anti gun culture like Philly very edgy because of their whole illogical and ignorant position on firearms...they automatically think you're up to no good and if one of them calls the cops on their cell phone they apparently have to investigate because they would be in a lot of trouble if it did turn up to be the 'bad guy' My own personality, unlike some others, is to exercise my right without anyone else knowing about it.

[mggtz 3]

And by the way, I am not familiar with PA laws and it might have been mentioned in the previous 7 pages but I know you are allowed to OC in PA, but are you allowed to OC in Philly?

 

Yes you can OC in Philly ONLY with a ccw. Under PA law, one can not carry, open or concealed, in a city of First Class, which is Plhilly with out first obtaining a CCW.

[Sam02S2K 3]

This guy should have complied with the officer initially instead of giving him a hard time. Pretty dumb in my opinion

[Soju 153]

This guy should have complied with the officer initially instead of giving him a hard time. Pretty dumb in my opinion

 

Their actions do not excuse the officer's actions.

[Sam02S2K 3]

Their actions do not excuse the officer's actions.

 

If the guy just shut his mouth and did what the officer told him to do things would have been a lot less worse for him. Specifically what actions are you talking about on the officers part?

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

If the guy just shut his mouth and did what the officer told him to do things would have been a lot less worse for him. Specifically what actions are you talking about on the officers part?

 

 

Did you read this thread. I know it's a long one, but before posting out of context you ought to understand the gist of the thread in the first place.

[Sam02S2K 3]

Did you read this thread. I know it's a long one, but before posting out of context you ought to understand the gist of the thread in the first place.

 

Yes I understand the gist of the thread. However, I wanted to know from him specifically what he was talking about

[mipafox 438]

Again, not going to discuss the original story, I've never even met that dude, just thought you ladies and gentlemen would appreciate some context. I spent well over 30 years in NJ. I carried in several states growing up. Despite that, growing up in NJ left me with no understanding about how America works.

 

All police in PA (not sure about state police, but otherwise) were trained on this in 2009:

 

paopencarry.org/pdfs/mpoetc_oc.pdf

 

Not everything in there is 100% accurate, but it did a pretty damn good job of reminding all police that they cannot perform a stop of somebody because they are open carrying, cannot search them because they are open carrying, cannot seize their weapon or property, and cannot demand ID. Cops could decide to talk to you and size you up. If you are willing. And until you decide to walk away. It's just like anybody else on the street that walked up to talk to you. Except a cop might seem authoritative even though he has no authority in these matters.

 

Now, some of you will read that entire training document, including the minor errors, and somehow look for the conclusion that police in PA can hassle you over OC. That is not the case. Please understand, PA is not NJ. Also, we have the Right to Keep and Bear Arms in our Commonwealth Constitution. NJ is one of the few states that does not. Finally, there is Supreme Court (and other) case law in PA where criminals that were carrying had their cases thrown out because the police used carrying (or possession?) as their RAS for a search.

 

Could Philly cops mess with you? Any cop can mess with you. That's why they are cops, so they can screw you over or plant drugs on you or whatever they do. All I can tell you is I have met dozens of cops all over the eastern half of the Commonwealth, including Philly, and most seem to be afraid to talk to me because I am carrying. They have been taught they will be sued if they approach me in a way that would suggest detainment. On the one hand, I think that's pretty crappy. Going to the other hand (foot in this case), they can't F with you. Under the Commonwealth Constitution, the Law, and the Case law, and, last but not least, the results of lawsuits.

 

Of course, none of this will stop a cop that wants to stick his penis in your rectum, or otherwise screw with you on a less consequential basis that results in a trumped-up charge. Philly is indeed a place where you might meet such cops, so plan accordingly.

[djg0770 481]

If the guy just shut his mouth and did what the officer told him to do things would have been a lot less worse for him.

 

 

The cop pulled his gun on him BEFORE he even spoke to "Junior"... So, you're saying we should just f-ing roll over and do what the cop says even though the cop is TOTALLY wrong?

[Sam02S2K 3]

The cop pulled his gun on him BEFORE he even spoke to "Junior"... So, you're saying we should just f-ing roll over and do what the cop says even though the cop is TOTALLY wrong?

 

Are we forgetting that the officer didn't know who this individual was with the gun? The officers job is to protect the citizens around the community as well as himself. The officer sees a guy open carry, you expect him NOT to approach the person regardless if he knows the laws or not about carrying a firearm?

 

If a officer tells you to get on the ground you do it. Be cooperative first and then ask questions later. If the guy would have just put the officer at ease by doing what he was told I'm sure things would have went much differently.