Watch the live hearing on HR 822 now

[djg0770 481]

It's really a moot point to throw ray under the train as PA is NOT one of the states that recognizes that its citizens can carry concealed without a license so you Mr Mipa have already submitted to a state registration scheme whether you wish to admit it or not.

 

What, you think the feds don't KNOW you have a CCW? BWAHAHA.

 

If it's really constitutional carry then WHY did YOU submit to getting a license to exercise a RIGHT in your state? Do you have a license for your 1st amendment rights? or for your fifth amendment rights??

[mipafox 438]

It's really a moot point to throw ray under the train as PA is NOT one of the states that recognizes that its citizens can carry concealed without a license so you Mr Mipa have already submitted to a state registration scheme whether you wish to admit it or not.

 

What, you think the feds don't KNOW you have a CCW? BWAHAHA.

 

If it's really constitutional carry then WHY did YOU submit to getting a license to exercise a RIGHT in your state? Do you have a license for your 1st amendment rights? or for your fifth amendment rights??

 

Who said I concealed?

 

Back to reality, I doubt the federal government has recorded anywhere who has a PA LTCF. I believe that, because it's true.

 

Now, why the fugg do you want the federal government to actualy register everybody that can carry? Why don't you answer that question?

 

The road to Hell is paved with people that say, "They already kind of do or think that so what's the big deal?"

 

The "big deal" is America is free, New Jersey is in chains, and you want the world to meet in the middle. There have been wars started over crap like this.

 

Keep it in New Jersey. Why do you want to screw America? And keep in mind, once the US falls into New Jersey's trap, it's over. Forever. For Humanity. There's not going to be a new spring of freedom somewhere in the future. We are it. The US is the only hope (present company excluded)

[M1152 713]

The guy from NY speaking now is a fool as well.

yes, Nadler another Anti from NY. I had bail-out after that panel change. As far as the national database that's why some Pro gun people are against it. I guess if you live in a "must issue" state you don't really care if this passes or not. I also belong to the THR and if IIRC there was a post over the summer about this where many didn't want this to pass because they didn't want the FEDS to take it over. You know the old saying once the elephant gets his nose under the tent the before you know it the whole thing is inside. I think that's why not everyone is onboard with this becasue they want to keep the FEDS out. I guess we have to ask ourselves if we lived in a "must issue" state would we want this. As it is right now living in NJ we'd take anything becasue of the azz clowns we have in Trenton

[mrjam2jab 9]

yes, Nadler another Anti from NY. I had bail-out after that panel change. As far as the national database that's why some Pro gun people are against it. I guess if you live in a "must issue" state you don't really care if this passes or not. I also belong to the THR and if IIRC there was a post over the summer about this where many didn't want this to pass because they didn't want the FEDS to take it over. You know the old saying once the elephant gets his nose under the tent the before you know it the whole thing is inside. I think that's why not everyone is onboard with this becasue they want to keep the FEDS out. I guess we have to ask ourselves if we lived in a "must issue" state would we want this. As it is right now living in NJ we'd take anything becasue of the azz clowns we have in Trenton

 

 

I live in Shall Issue PA...and I want this to pass. I live about 5 miles from the NJ border...and have multiple family members living in NJ.

 

oh, and I think it's a camel's nose...not elephant.

[M1152 713]

I live in Shall Issue PA...and I want this to pass. I live about 5 miles from the NJ border...and have multiple family members living in NJ.

 

oh, and I think it's a camel's nose...not elephant.

Don’t know about that, you got the idea. I tell you where I heard it from, if you are from PA you may remember Irv Homer on the old WWDB which use to be 96.5 on the FM dial, he was full of them.... We loved Irv, he was one of the smartest people I’ve ever heard. He was an old WW-2 Vet\ Libertarian\Bartender who became a talk radio host out of Philly, BTW Irv use to carry.

 

For myself I'd like to see if pass as well so that the drones in Trenton will wake up, that said I do see the other side of the argument but in my view if the NRA is for it, it can't be all bad.

[johnott 5]

I'm for it. (HR 822 that is)

 

Pass it while you can...

 

Get something done. It's not perfect, it doesn't redress 40-50 years of anti-gun law, but let's start somewhere. Once passed, and the anti-gun scare tactics of gloom and doom don't materialize then maybe more people will see the light. Perhaps it will lead to a serious dialog concerning 2A rights.

 

If we don't act now and those nutty liberal politicians get there way, then just talking about guns on forums like this will be banned.

[tommy3rd 132]

I just want to carry anywhere in the US without having to be a LEO. If a CCW registration is what it takes, then I personally can live with that.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

No, Ray Ray wants hundreds of millions of people to submit to a federal registration scheme of people that are permited to carry a gun. Has nothing to do with which states require licenses.

Are you in agreement with Ray Ray that there should be federal registration of all people that carry firearms?

 

I never said I wanted federal registration. I said if this law passes (which you seem to want it to fail) then it's the closest I can get to CCWing in my home state. Which is all I want.

[muzzelloader69 9]

when is on today and what channel?

[muzzelloader69 9]

when is on today and what channel?

[PeteF 1,044]

national concealed carry license

 

Methheads, murderers and rapists got one of those also. Should they have the right to carry? No, you are born with a right but if you make choices that piss that right away, you no longer deserve to be afforded that right.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

I missed it, was busy all day yesterday when I got out of work, so, can we carry yet??

 

 

[aguilar64 9]

Here is a c-span link video from yesterday.

 

http://c-spanvideo.org/program/302652-1

[mikelets456 78]

Who said I concealed?

 

Back to reality, I doubt the federal government has recorded anywhere who has a PA LTCF. I believe that, because it's true.

 

Now, why the fugg do you want the federal government to actualy register everybody that can carry? Why don't you answer that question?

 

The road to Hell is paved with people that say, "They already kind of do or think that so what's the big deal?"

 

The "big deal" is America is free, New Jersey is in chains, and you want the world to meet in the middle. There have been wars started over crap like this.

 

Keep it in New Jersey. Why do you want to screw America? And keep in mind, once the US falls into New Jersey's trap, it's over. Forever. For Humanity. There's not going to be a new spring of freedom somewhere in the future. We are it. The US is the only hope (present company excluded)

 

I have to say I agree with this... Once the Feds have a registration of everyone that has a CCW it is NO different than what Hitler did in Germany when he instituted gun registration.

[mikelets456 78]

I missed it, was busy all day yesterday when I got out of work, so, can we carry yet??

 

Yes, but only in the confines of your home.

[mikelets456 78]

Methheads, murderers and rapists got one of those also. Should they have the right to carry? No, you are born with a right but if you make choices that piss that right away, you no longer deserve to be afforded that right.

 

Although I agree with that, who gets to determine what institutes the right to carry? Obviously, murder, theft and stuff like that negate the right to carry. However, what if praying, speeding or "hate speech" is considered acts of violent concern?

 

Amendment 2 - Right to Bear Arms. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note

 

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

 

Is there a limit on free speech?

[Maksim 1,504]

Your rights end where my nose begins. - John Locke

 

 

While I am all for people owning firearms, I dont want untrained fools walking about with a loaded glock on their holster, without actual training. I believe I have more to fear some good samaritan missing and hitting people standing by, then the bad guy.

 

I agree with both sides on this bill, for one, the states should have the right to enforce their own laws, however, something must be done about reciprocity, and instead of an opt in system like it is now, it should be an opt out... (state must say no if they do not want to honor out of state ccw), instead of how it is now, there is no reciprocity unless we sign something.

[Maksim 1,504]

 

Is there a limit on free speech?

 

Actually, there is, protections against Libel and Slander, and when you are on someone's property and they don't like it.

[Malsua 1,422]

 

I believe I have more to fear some good samaritan missing and hitting people standing by, then the bad guy.

 

 

Really? How often does that occur in Vt or Arizona or Alaska? Never. In any of the other CCW states? Never.

 

How often are people accosted, beaten, mugged, raped and robbed? All the time.

 

You need to expunge NJ from your thinking. You live here long enough and these anti-gun liberal fantasies will start to infect you.

[bbk 188]

The reflexivity of Maks statement is apparent, however, it is viable in application because the change of gun culture in NJ cannot be transformed over night. To me, the changing of the gun culture in a place in NJ is like the introduction of technology to cultures that are simply not ready yet (which, for those who don't know, never ends well).

 

We can say that as people of a larger community of gun owners across the US we are obviously not idiots, and have relatively clean backgrounds. Chances are that the overwhelming majority would not have any issues, however, could we account for everyone? Even if there were to be a single incident, the primary objective would be an absolute failure.

 

Further, how can anybody vouch for the greater whole? I cannot say that John Smith, a character I've never met nor would ever care to, is of great and perfect personality... nor would I want to because that then reflects upon my own character. Just because we as NJ gun owners go through a "background check" doesn't really amount to much. It is relatively easy to get through life without racking up a criminal record or being mentally unstable. As for our contacts, we put down people who we know will vouch for us regardless. Not really much of a background check, considering what goes into SSBIs.

 

I'm not saying that the introduction of reciprocity would unleash a torrent of loonies running around, trying to be cowboys. I simply and inherently don't trust that people in NJ, as a whole, in the current form with the current gun culture would be capable without incident(s). Now, I think that it would be eventually possible, and that is demonstrated because that is indeed how it works in the majority of the country-- which is fantastic. However, they have established their gun culture, and in fact it is the dominant one.

 

So then the real question becomes how do we achieve that progression of culture? Simply throwing tools into our hands, that we are not culturally ready for, does nothing but exacerbate a larger issue.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

 

While I am all for people owning firearms, I dont want untrained fools walking about with a loaded glock on their holster, without actual training. I believe I have more to fear some good samaritan missing and hitting people standing by, then the bad guy.

 

 

 

I have to take a different view however I do respect your 1A rights also.. While I do agree anyone who choses to carry should do it with the proper training and I feel that should rest on the shoulders of the person themselves only..

 

I have said it before and will say it again as if I was a broken record until I am cold and dead and can no longer say it, the 2A should is not be conditional at all, as long as your are not a restricted person who can not own a gun, than carrying is your RIGHT, not privilege, end of story.

[Maksim 1,504]

Really? How often does that occur in Vt or Arizona or Alaska? Never. In any of the other CCW states? Never.

 

How often are people accosted, beaten, mugged, raped and robbed? All the time.

 

You need to expunge NJ from your thinking. You live here long enough and these anti-gun liberal fantasies will start to infect you.

 

 

So only people in NJ are untrained and can't shoot?

 

Also, what is the population density in Vt, Arizona, or Alaska?

 

If you are the only person in an area of 5 miles, I don't care what you do.

 

If I am sitting in a Princeton cafe, or some local sbux, or hell, a shoprite... can you honestly say you would feel safe?

 

My brother has a CCW in PA, if he was ever in a situation I use it, I would rather not be there. Here is someone that has shot before, used to go a few times a week to the range, but has never drawn from a holster, fired under stress, or taken any defensive carry courses. He has a photography business where he does event photography at philly restaurants.... there have been cases before where there were fights, shots fired over some arguement after drunk russians were involved.

 

If some new owns a gun, they are shooting it at the range. Or where I am not around. If someone has a CCW, better they be trained. If it is a license to carry, whats wrong with an educational requirement?

 

Whether I lived in Florida, Alaska, NY, or wherever, I would not feel differently. I have seen poor marksmanship in every state I travel. I still don't carry all the time when I go to PA or travel to FL because I do not feel 110% that I would be safe if that situation came up, and hence why I carry a knife. I have no doubt if it came for me to draw, by nature (and because of gun games), every target gets two rounds, and I don't ccw a race holster.

 

If an education/firearms live fire exercise works for states like Colorado and Utah, why is it too much to ask for everyone to adopt the same standards? I absolutely believe in state's rights and it is up to them, but it is, in my opinion, irresponsible for someone to have monkeys walk around with live grenades. It is why people wear Kevlar going to the BH, and why I don't shoot at a public range unless I have no alternative.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Your rights end where my nose begins. - John Locke

 

 

While I am all for people owning firearms, I dont want untrained fools walking about with a loaded glock on their holster, without actual training. I believe I have more to fear some good samaritan missing and hitting people standing by, then the bad guy.

 

I agree with both sides on this bill, for one, the states should have the right to enforce their own laws, however, something must be done about reciprocity, and instead of an opt in system like it is now, it should be an opt out... (state must say no if they do not want to honor out of state ccw), instead of how it is now, there is no reciprocity unless we sign something.

 

That's a lame argument... you can't cure stupid, nor should you punish responsible folks for the actions of the irresponsible. Not to mention, there isn't an invisible barrier to the world which denies entry to those who carry guns without a CCW permit... They'll just carry anyways. But guess who won't carry? You. Because you're a Mr. Goody-two-shoes law abiding citizen who tries to do everything on the level, but will still be denied a right by folks who think they can make society better by forcing their world-view on everybody else. Morons and criminals will go out there with guns in their waistbands regardless of training requirements and all the laws in the world you can pass...

[Malsua 1,422]

So only people in NJ are untrained and can't shoot?

 

Huh?

 

Also, what is the population density in Vt, Arizona, or Alaska?

 

In the cities, the same as NJ.

 

If I am sitting in a Princeton cafe, or some local sbux, or hell, a shoprite... can you honestly say you would feel safe?

 

Yes. License holders are the safest persons in the country in all categories of crime. Why would it be any different than now? Have you ever gone to a restaurant in a CCW state? People are carrying. Did you feel less safe?

 

My brother has a CCW in PA, if he was ever in a situation I use it, I would rather not be there.

 

Then by all means, encourage him to get training.

 

Here is someone that has shot before, used to go a few times a week to the range, but has never drawn from a holster, fired under stress, or taken any defensive carry courses.

 

I've never fired under stress or taken any defensive carry courses. I guess I can't carry in your world.

 

there have been cases before where there were fights, shots fired over some arguement after drunk russians were involved.

 

The problem is with the drunk Russians. If they are irresponsible gun owners, they're going to have guns anyway. Allowing them under the law won't encourage them to do something they're going to do anyway.

 

If someone has a CCW, better they be trained. If it is a license to carry, whats wrong with an educational requirement?

 

Only reasonable education, right? Frank Lautenmummy may think reasonable is a 16 hour course every 6 months. Is that reasonable to you?

 

Self defense should not require permission from a government bureaucrat.

 

I still don't carry all the time when I go to PA or travel to FL because I do not feel 110% that I would be safe if that situation came up, and hence why I carry a knife.

 

If you choose to impose limits on your self defense options, that's your choice. You quoted Locke above. The same applies here.

 

If an education/firearms live fire exercise works for states like Colorado and Utah, why is it too much to ask for everyone to adopt the same standards?

 

Because the best self defense is an inalienable right, not a subject of debate.

 

I have said before that there are ways to encourage people to get training without requiring it. Permit with training certificate = $50 for 5 years. Permit without training certificate = $500 for 5 years. Most people would get training.

 

All that aside, I believe in constitutional carry. The permission slip or lack thereof does little to persuade ineligible people from carrying anyway.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

I totally understand. But as a husband and a father if this is all I got then I'd have to take it.

 

I wouldn't throw the other 43 free states under a bus so that I can get some meager right to carry a gun in NJ. The way this state works, you'll get your right to carry after you submit to an anal probing backround check once every two years and you'd have to wear a dunce cap at all times so that the police can identify you and harass you (this coming from a NJ politicians' pov).

[Old School 611]

So only people in NJ are untrained and can't shoot?

 

Also, what is the population density in Vt, Arizona, or Alaska?

 

If you are the only person in an area of 5 miles, I don't care what you do.

 

If I am sitting in a Princeton cafe, or some local sbux, or hell, a shoprite... can you honestly say you would feel safe?

 

My brother has a CCW in PA, if he was ever in a situation I use it, I would rather not be there. Here is someone that has shot before, used to go a few times a week to the range, but has never drawn from a holster, fired under stress, or taken any defensive carry courses. He has a photography business where he does event photography at philly restaurants.... there have been cases before where there were fights, shots fired over some arguement after drunk russians were involved.

 

If some new owns a gun, they are shooting it at the range. Or where I am not around. If someone has a CCW, better they be trained. If it is a license to carry, whats wrong with an educational requirement?

 

Whether I lived in Florida, Alaska, NY, or wherever, I would not feel differently. I have seen poor marksmanship in every state I travel. I still don't carry all the time when I go to PA or travel to FL because I do not feel 110% that I would be safe if that situation came up, and hence why I carry a knife. I have no doubt if it came for me to draw, by nature (and because of gun games), every target gets two rounds, and I don't ccw a race holster.

 

If an education/firearms live fire exercise works for states like Colorado and Utah, why is it too much to ask for everyone to adopt the same standards? I absolutely believe in state's rights and it is up to them, but it is, in my opinion, irresponsible for someone to have monkeys walk around with live grenades. It is why people wear Kevlar going to the BH, and why I don't shoot at a public range unless I have no alternative.

 

 

Maks that's pathetic!

 

As far as liability goes for a legitimate carry. Group liability insurance.

 

Edit: I know you live in a world of finite numbers and don't want to leave anything to chance. But #1 you probably have equal or more firearms skills than the average LEO.

#2 Some gangsta or two or three can shove that knife where the sun don't shine.

I hope the few times you do carry is when you're out with your wife because unless she is Ziva David she relys on you as well.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

So only people in NJ are untrained and can't shoot?

 

Also, what is the population density in Vt, Arizona, or Alaska?

 

If you are the only person in an area of 5 miles, I don't care what you do.

 

If I am sitting in a Princeton cafe, or some local sbux, or hell, a shoprite... can you honestly say you would feel safe?

 

My brother has a CCW in PA, if he was ever in a situation I use it, I would rather not be there. Here is someone that has shot before, used to go a few times a week to the range, but has never drawn from a holster, fired under stress, or taken any defensive carry courses. He has a photography business where he does event photography at philly restaurants.... there have been cases before where there were fights, shots fired over some arguement after drunk russians were involved.

 

If some new owns a gun, they are shooting it at the range. Or where I am not around. If someone has a CCW, better they be trained. If it is a license to carry, whats wrong with an educational requirement?

 

Whether I lived in Florida, Alaska, NY, or wherever, I would not feel differently. I have seen poor marksmanship in every state I travel. I still don't carry all the time when I go to PA or travel to FL because I do not feel 110% that I would be safe if that situation came up, and hence why I carry a knife. I have no doubt if it came for me to draw, by nature (and because of gun games), every target gets two rounds, and I don't ccw a race holster.

 

If an education/firearms live fire exercise works for states like Colorado and Utah, why is it too much to ask for everyone to adopt the same standards? I absolutely believe in state's rights and it is up to them, but it is, in my opinion, irresponsible for someone to have monkeys walk around with live grenades. It is why people wear Kevlar going to the BH, and why I don't shoot at a public range unless I have no alternative.

 

Who cares? Not everyone needs to be a pro IPSC shooter to be able to defend themselves with a gun. Drawing from a holster? Wow... that's real tough to figure out. Firing under stress? I'd imagine a majority of those who CCWed never practiced firing under stress... Don't really see any streets running red with blood due to that though...

 

Mandatory firearms training is stupid. If you buy a gun, you're responsible for whatever you do with it. If you take that responsibility lightly, then you'll end up dead, in jail, or grieving a loss. Not to mention: look at what Chicago is doing with their 'mandatory training requirements'. Sure, you can buy a gun, but only if you make it into a certified training class held in the janitors' closet beneath city hall once every 3 years.

[PeteF 1,044]

I have to say I agree with this... Once the Feds have a registration of everyone that has a CCW it is NO different than what Hitler did in Germany when he instituted gun registration.

 

This is NOT a gun registration, hell you don't even have to have a gun to get a CCW. The number of firearms and what type you own are not tied to a CCW (outside of PRNJ).

[hd2000fxdl 422]

Maks that's pathetic!

 

As far as liability goes for a legitimate carry. Group liability insurance.

 

USCCA that I belong to also has some coverage for there members.

[Maksim 1,504]

Have you seen some people shoot?

 

So lets get rid of driver's licenses, educational requirements for brokers, attorneys, doctors.

 

Find some statistics on how many rounds fired even hit the target, or look at all the ccw cases where people shoot the person in the arm.

 

Mark, btw, thank you for insulting Russians.

 

When you defend yourself in a home, I could care less what you do, or anyone does. I think mag limits are stupid, folding stocks, etc. Own whatever the heck you want to own.

 

Speaking of permits... you cant do the $50 for training, $500 for none. What about us poor folks who cant spend on a permit? You will get that arguement.

 

Having free, required training, along the lines of a 4 hour class, as they now have in Utah and Colorado is not unreasonable. Should be right of the states to determine what that is. If you live in a state where the vast majority of the people truly dislike guns, well, tough crap for us. People have the right to their opinion, that is why we live in the United States. You can't kill/hate someone because they are Jewish, Muslim, Indian, etc. We can't do that with anti gun people. They have that right to their opinions. We can only hope to get them to see that guns are not evil.