Developing story - Shooting at Empire State Building

[bulpup 98]

Having just seen a bit of it on News 12. I will add this The police were told by a construction worker which way he had fled. They followed verbally confronted and he drew they fired he died. They defend their lives. I just hope Mayor Dumbberg doesn't use this as one more push to restrict guns.

 

One last thing to those that have enlisted, volunteer, or get paid to server and protect our cities , states and country do a job that most people don't want to or should not .

 

here is the link to News 12. http://www.news12.com/index.jsp

 

 

Wow. Really shows how quick it all happens doesn't it?

 

Back when I was a student of aerial combat I read a quote from a German ace that said something like "we all talk about tactics but the best way I can describe it is like being in car crash. You live or die in that time frame."

 

That video reminds me of those words I have come to respect.

[TK421 2]

So a while back I was lectured about leaving these situations to the "professionals" because they are trained. I rest my case. In the heat of the moment trained or not bystanders can be injured. I blame the libtard policy that mandate NYC police carry weapons with an 11lb trigger pull more than the cops themselves for the collateral damage.

[SgtToadette 59]

Positive twist? Mayor attempts stricter gun control. Ruled unconstitutional along with some other current NYC laws. I know it sounds crazy. But here my post. Reply to me maybe?

[TheWombat 67]

Let's wait for the facts. Currently it appears the following are the facts - although this could change as the media/police report further:

• Police person A fired 9 shots
  
• Police Person B fired 7 shots
  
• 7 shots in total hit the gunman
  
• 9 shots didn't hit the gunman
  
• 9 civilians were injured - six of whom have already been released from hospital
  
• This is the first shooting these two policeman have been involved in
  

It is possible that of the 9 shots that missed, some would have hit the surrounding pavement/sidewalk, flowerpots etc and may have caused ricochet and fragments of 'stone' to injure some of the civilians. We do not yet know how many of the 9 shots that missed actually hit civilians. We do not know whether the NYC trigger had any part to play in the misses.

 

Looking at the video - this occurs quickly

 

For anyone who hasn't tried Simunitions Force on Force - then I'd highly recommend giving it a go, particularly if you feel the situation could have been handled better (I'm not saying it shouldn't/couldn't have). Most people who go and try Simunitions come out at the end with a greater understanding of what a shooting is like, why people react how they do, and some enlightenment on things to consider if you're in a situation and have a chance to think before acting.

 

TheWombat

[Ray Ray 3,566]

If it weren't 2 cops but 2 CCW carriers this would be a totally different story.

[TheWombat 67]

If it weren't 2 cops but 2 CCW carriers this would be a totally different story.

 

That I do agree on!

 

TheWombat and RayRay agree on something!!!

 

TheWombat

[tony357 386]

That I do agree on!

 

TheWombat and RayRay agree on something!!!

 

TheWombat

 

The SKY would light up over bloombergs office..

[lunker 274]

The triggers on Glocks were made heavier to cut down on negligent discharges by NYC police. Now it is so heavy that it is extremely difficult to get off an accurate shot unless you slowly stage it. Forget about followup shots. I wish bureaucrats would think things through. There are real life consequenses to their policies. What they created was a gun that requires a ton of practice with to become proficient.

[matty 810]

This one will fade away quickly, it doesn't fit the anti-gun Liberal Agenda. I saw lowlites of Bloomie's presser on the Eyewash News last nite. Christine Quinn & Ray Kelly had sad clown faces on. Since this episode may make their constituencies look bad (UES Liberal, possibly Gay, and cops in Kelly's case) by the time the first lawsuit is offically filed-I predict as soon as the courts open Monday--there won't be a peep about it from the MSM.

 

This will also be the biggest shyster bonanza of the year in NYC, there will be tons of mental anguish/back and neck injuries PTSD, etc. etc. on and on from anyone within 1000ft of the scene. The funny thing is that with all the vid cameras now around there, they'll be able to prove they were in the area. Maybe John Edwards can restart his lawyer career--

[Krdshrk 3,878]

Actually - a lot of us are quick to blame the 12# Glock triggers, but I have seen cops that aren't wearing glocks in NYC. I've seen Sigs as well as others.

[JC_68Westy 1,024]

Actually - a lot of us are quick to blame the 12# Glock triggers, but I have seen cops that aren't wearing glocks in NYC. I've seen Sigs as well as others.

They carry Glock 19, Sig P226, and S&W 59??, all with crap triggers.

[Xchange1980 0]

They released video of the cops killing the suspect http://www.news12.com/articleDetail.jsp?articleId=331731&position=1&news_type=news

[Caine 147]

Actually - a lot of us are quick to blame the 12# Glock triggers, but I have seen cops that aren't wearing glocks in NYC. I've seen Sigs as well as others.

Not that it matters, but their SIGs are DAO with 12lb triggers (if I remember correctly). The S&W 5946 (the other approved NYPD gun) is also a DAO gun. So, it doesn't really matter if it was a Glock or not. All of the NYPD guns seem to have 12lb triggers.

[BlueLineFish 615]

Yes. I cant imagine the 12 pound trigger. We use modified ny triggers on our glocks and thats 8.5 pounds. That sucks.

[45Doll 5,891]

Question: Should police officers who are armed while on street patrol be able to put more than 43% of their discharged rounds into a basically stationary human size target at about 21 feet while under duress? If not, why not?

 

This month I attended a course at a major firearms training center. My instructor made the point that, in his (extensive!) experience and opinion, less than 5% of the police officers he encountered in LE training sessions had in fact received training adequate to deal with a scenario like this shooting. Instead, departments spend exhorbitant sums on arial drones, urban assault vehicles, SWAT teams and tactics, wall-to-wall video surveillance, community outreach programs etc. In the meantime, the cop-on-the-beat couldn't consistently hit his target while under stress. As we saw.

 

If by chance we discover the training profiles and history for the two officers in this incident, I don't think we'll consider the results to be surprising.

 

And if you won't adequately train your police officers, why are they armed and dispersed among the public, Mayor Bloomberg?

[alec.mc 180]

Agreed,

 

Personally, I think there should be more training for the nypd. There are too many stories of police unloading 50-100 shots and hitting their target 10 times. I dont mean this as an insult to any police officer, and it's certaintly not the case for every police officer, but any cop i've seen handle a gun couldnt hit the side of a barn 10 yards in front of them, And I certainly didnt feel safe around them. ( No Joe, I dont mean you buddy! ) Eliminate these horrendously heavy triggers that serve no purpose other to aid the officer in missing, and get some actual training in. It's nobodys fault but the people making the rules, not the officer.

 

I've seen police qualifiers, specifically at the bullet hole. And it was a joke.

 

 

Question: Should police officers who are armed while on street patrol be able to put more than 43% of their discharged rounds into a basically stationary human size target at about 21 feet while under duress? If not, why not?

 

43% ? Doesnt NY have a 10 round limit? What capacity mags do the NYPD carry?

 

 

In a city as over populated as NYC, If a officer needs to fire off his/her duty weapon, I think they should be a little more conservitive and deliberate with their shot placement.

[45Doll 5,891]

The 43% I referred to was the current reported percentage of rounds on target. 6 hits / 16 fired = 43.8% on target. OK, I'll go 44.

 

And similarly to alec, I have been told face-to-face by two NJSP troopers (from different barracks) that they refuse to use the range when certain brother members of the force are on it. (Not only can't those individuals shoot straight when not under duress, their weapons handling habits are atrocious.) Why is this not corrected properly, and before an 'incident'?

 

Imagine what the story line would be if a gunman had shot and killed the one individual he targeted, and then two citizen CCW holders had shot him with the same on-target performance and wounded 9 other civilians in the process!

 

I'm just a lowly subject citizen, and I'm considering the Force-On-Force training for me just because I'm armed in my house, and I think I should be able to hit a target under duress and not just spray-and-pray.

[BlueLineFish 615]

I thought you were talking to me alec. Thanks for the clarification. I would love more training. But training costs money and incurs overtime. Both of which depts dont want. Its a shame

[TK421 2]

Did anyone catch Giuliani on Hannity's radio show yesterday? While talking about this incident, he basically come out in favor of shall-issue CCW permits. Given his history I was somewhat shocked.

 

I actually found the audio, he also came out against Bloomberg's crusade for more gun control.

 

Audio here: http://www.hannity.com/article/rudy-giuliani-on-empire-state-building-shooting/15951

[alec.mc 180]

I thought you were talking to me alec. Thanks for the clarification. I would love more training. But training costs money and incurs overtime. Both of which depts dont want. Its a shame

 

Joe, I'd give you at least 15 yards before your barn hittage percentage became sketchy.

 

LoL

[Rifleman1 32]

Supposedly a workplace shooting. Early reports say gunman was fired yesterday. Attempted to enter building today but was denied access, so he waited outside for his boss. ETA: Bloomberg just said he was fired a year ago? ETA2: Some of the shooting victims may have been shot by police as they were trying to take down shooter.

 

Makes you think about the employees you have had to fire or "let go", doesn't it?

[BlueLineFish 615]

Damn..usually anything close i tackle. Thats how i destroyed my back. Lol..im working on it. Honestly. I really only have been seriously shooting for about a year. Before that it was only twice a year to qualify. I am determined to hone my skills.

[BlueLineFish 615]

Maybe we should ban firing. Its dangerous

[TK421 2]

 

 

Makes you think about the employees you have had to fire or "let go", doesn't it?

 

From the information presented thus far it looks as though the two had issues working together and the shooter apparent blamed the victim for his termination. The shooter was 58 and most likely unable to find work. Perhaps death by cop with a side dish of payback for the man he saw as being the root cause for the loss of his job? It will be interesting to see if they find any notes indicating why he did this.

[tony357 386]

+1 to Rudy excellent dialog with Sean on gun ownership..

[Rifleman1 32]

From the information presented thus far it looks as though the two had issues working together and the shooter apparent blamed the victim for his termination. The shooter was 58 and most likely unable to find work. Perhaps death by cop with a side dish of payback for the man he saw as being the root cause for the loss of his job? It will be interesting to see if they find any notes indicating why he did this.

 

It is these types of situations over the past 5 or so years that caused me to ponder how I would protect myself and my family in similar situations and to implement solutions. We cannot always count on someone else to be there to protect us and need to protect ourselves...

 

[greatgunstatenj 32]

Perhaps death by cop with a side dish of payback for the man he saw as being the root cause for the loss of his job? It will be interesting to see if they find any notes indicating why he did this.

 

Agreed. Most likely death by cop.

 

Would love to see cops get more training but a simple cost benefit analysis will tell you why it will never happen.

[BarkNBite 15]

Remember back in NJ years ago with a man holding a knife to a woman's throat on the sidewalk in front of their apartment........LE hold up behind their cars ordering him to drop the knife......man cut's womans throat, she dies........22 shots fired.....BG hit once in the ankle.

Training...........IMO can never be stressed enough.....one actually trains months, years for that brief moment of mayhem...and it's all over in seconds....hopefully you survive it.

IMO...........I believe 8 innocents down at that close encounter by professionals is appauling.....yes I understand and train moving off the X and fireing, but that's when training takes over and your shots are directed towards your objective....not spray and pray.

I don't think the inaccuracy of the officers involved should be overlooked just because they are LE......and that no one else was critically wounded by their gunfire was just a matter of luck.

A situation like this is what we all discuss here daily..............an active shooter / man with a gun......don't believe anyone here would ever considder taking out 8 innocents.....that's why we train.

In retrospect, I knew even before the PC report that those down were due to Police fire.......

 

Their attorney's should have a field day......

[67gtonut 847]

I just want to say Thank You for everyone now keeping this discussion on an adult level.....

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk excuse the spelling

[alec.mc 180]

Before that it was only twice a year to qualify.

 

I'm sorry to use you as an example Joe, but there it is folks. What makes police better then the rest of us to carry and use a firearm? I do more shooting in a weekend then most police will do all year. Personally, IMO The whole - Police are better trained & qualified argument is shattered, as we see with this nypd incident

 

Unless a cop takes it upon hiself, like Joe, to better his skills both for hobby and professional reasons, the skill is just not there with the average cop.