The missing link on 45 vs 9mm stopping power

[Combat Auto 174]

Never seen this before but it makes alot of sence - from wikapedia - rather than use muzzel energy for comparison which focuses too much on velocity (ie sqaure of V), the Taylor KNockout Factor is Mass x Velocity x diamiter of bullet (divided by a constant)...This is what the serious Africana Big Game hunters use...You 9mm guys will not like it ;-) (all in fun please) but it shows the clear superiority of 45(12) over 9mm(7) (357 mag (11) is same as 45 effectively)as far as 1 shot stopping power..Also check out some of your other favorate rounds - look at the 44 mag (20!).

 

I know, I know, your expert shooting is the most imporatnt thing, so no need to get into that debate again!!! ;-)...And I also agree shoot the most powerfull load you are "good at".

 

But it is clear from the TKOF that all things equal, you have a statistical edge with the 45 over the 9mm (and a significant one at that).

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_KO_Factor

[MidwestPX 172]

I don't buy it. What matters is terminal ballistics which, for handguns, is the size of the permanent wound channel. Handgun rounds don't achieve high enough of a velocity to create a temporary wound channel or generate hydrostatic shock so when it comes to effectiveness, it's all about how big of a hole the bullet is punching. Modern bullet design has 9mm hollow points expanding to nearly the size of those of a .45 JHP. What you gain with 9mm is capacity and cost over .45 I shoot both calibers and own multiple handguns but I carry a 9mm because I can afford to practice with it more often, I can carry more rounds and if I have to use it, I'm not really losing anything as far as terminal ballistics are concerned relative to other calibers.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

nonsense

 

223 is less than most standard pistol calibers.

 

Pass

[Combat Auto 174]

If the numbers in the TKOF don't convience you look at this video - but I am sure that will not do it either - Gun-Crew is generally very dedicated to the round they carry. -Again all in fun - beleive/shoot what you like of, course!

 

Doing 45 hollow point vs 9 mm Hollow point - apples to apples. Note the diference how the 45 lifts and moves the Gel Cube significantly wheras the 9mm dosn't...Note also how huge the wound channel of the 45 is vs the smaller 9mm...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJKZO71mEns

[A-Tech 8]

If the numbers in the TKOF don't convience you look at this video - but I am sure that will not do it either - Gun-Crew is generally very dedicated to the round they carry. -Again all in fun - beleive/shoot what you like of, course!

 

Doing 45 hollow point vs 9 mm Hollow point - apples to apples. Note the diference how the 45 lifts and moves the Gel Cube significantly wheras the 9mm dosn't...Note also how huge the wound channel of the 45 is vs the smaller 9mm...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJKZO71mEns

 

All of those things can be changed by the variance in the gel though. I've seen gels cut open in the center of the wound channel and be less than a hundredth of an inch difference 9mm and .45acp they only difference between then being depth of penetration.

[Shane45 807]

I did a lot of research when I was a member of the Ammolab. We matched up projectiles that had proven records from actual shootings with the measurments from unproven rounds to get a kind of predictability of performance. All in all it was pretty accurate. But I am with MWPX. The general difference of effectiveness in quality rounds, 9 or 45 has seemed somewhat small to me for a long time. You have to hit the vital hydraulic system or CNS with a pistol round. Thats it. BUT recently I read an article from a coroner that made me re-evaluate my position. He was former LE and thus looked at his findings from the perspective of performance. He favored the 45 and for very good reason IMO. I can say that I cling to capacity without a really good argument for doing so. Average gunfight is what, 6 rounds total? If your odds are lottery high for getting into a gunfight as a civy to begin with, then what are your odds of getting into a protracted gunfight? Part of me would prefer to be prepared for ANY possibility. But the report from this coroner had some compelling arguments to the contrary. Basically his position was that he has autopsied a number of individuals that had been shot by 9 mm rounds that would have hit vitals had they not been deflected internally. In contrast, his findings indicated the 45 rounds tended to smash on through and hit the vitals without the same level of deflection 9mm's experienced. So if the likelyhood is that your fight will be 3 shots or less does it indeed make more sense for those to be rounds that are less likely to be deflected? My answer is I guess it depends on how good of a shot you are! I cant speak to the possibility of randomness. Could rounds be deflected into a better hit? Maybe. But I can only take the coroner at his word that entrance wounds on target stayed on taget compared to 9's that in some percentage of cases dit not. With that being said, in my opinion there is also a lot of merrit to the statement tha due to the lower cost, you can train more with 9mm. I think there is a controllability argument to be had as well. You cant really calculate the effectiveness of misses so having no data there makes it plausible that someone could possibly have a higher hit ratio with a 9mm but there is no easy way to determine that. But in the ends, I think the even with the coroners findings, I would not feel undergunned with a good 9mm with quality ammo. But one has to consider that some of the compacts out there that hold 10 rounds of .45 might just be the best balance of capacity and effectiveness.

[iRONman 7]

Is this topic in English?

[gunguy1960 2]

Curious, if someone punches ballistic gelatin how many inches is that permanent wound channel? Sometimes the effectiveness is harder to measure, the 45acp has a track record in real world and combat that is good enough for me, but I understand the 9mm argument as well, using special bullets combined with a long enough barrel. Bottom line is there is no round I prefer to be shot with.

[Shocker 151]

"non lethal" rounds penetrate ballistics gel, gel is not the be-all end-all of terminal effectiveness

 

Shane has a good point regarding wound tracks.

 

TKOF has been previously argued as bunk in the ballistics community. I don't have a personal opinion but the bottom line is terminal effectiveness is hard to evaluate and can vary wildly depending on other factors (temperature, clothing, barriers like glass or drywall). If it were easy to predict there would be a lot fewer cartridges to pick from and a lot fewer ballisticians with jobs

[Krdshrk 3,877]

Honestly the only thing that the Taylor KO factor says to me is "the bigger the bullet, the better". I'm a nonbeliever in that arbitrary made-up measurement.

[Tactical Monkey 51]

But one has to consider that some of the compacts out there that hold 10 rounds of .45 might just be the best balance of capacity and effectiveness.

 

SA XD45c = Thread over Plus it can accept 13rd mags, and use the holster of the Service XD45 and Tactical (5") XD45.

Seriously though, with the average of 3's (3 shots, 3 seconds, 3 yards) one could feel comfortable with .45 in quantites of 8+. Revolvers have (and still are) been used in Gunfights for over a century, with only 6 rounds. I agree with Shane that in the small percentage chance of a civilian engagement, shot placement will still hold more sway than caliber and capacity, but defelction is an issue to be considered (bones, glass, cover, etc.)

[Big Jay 0]

If my ass gets shot with either...I am falling to the ground and crying like a little girl. Either is fine. I prefer .40

 

To each their own!

 

My advice: Pick the caliber you can shoot accurately with under duress.

[Zell959 40]

Spending a lot of mental energy on debating 9mm vs 45 is generally a sign that you've lost sight of the fact that all handguns are really pathetic man-stoppers compared to long guns. This isn't a CCW state, so if stopping power is your #1 priority, you've already messed up by going with a handgun in the first place.

[Dan 177]

AR's are better then AK's!

 

Oh wait wrong thread. :0

 

I subscribe to the light and fast camp, like 125gr 357mag, 357sig, 9mm +p+ for my choices, but I do also know that 45acp flying hole punchers are just as good and maybe even better in some circumstances. I think that is the key word.... circumstances... as there are so many variables when it comes to this sort of thing.

[Handyman 5,682]

BUT recently I read an article from a coroner that made me re-evaluate my position. He was former LE and thus looked at his findings from the perspective of performance. He favored the 45 and for very good reason IMO. I can say that I cling to capacity without a really good argument for doing so. Average gunfight is what, 6 rounds total? If your odds are lottery high for getting into a gunfight as a civy to begin with, then what are your odds of getting into a protracted gunfight? Part of me would prefer to be prepared for ANY possibility. But the report from this coroner had some compelling arguments to the contrary. Basically his position was that he has autopsied a number of individuals that had been shot by 9 mm rounds that would have hit vitals had they not been deflected internally. In contrast, his findings indicated the 45 rounds tended to smash on through and hit the vitals without the same level of deflection 9mm's experienced.

 

 

If a 9mm is enough to cause someone to need an autopsy, that is enough for me.

[Shane45 807]

An interesting point made in the same discussion was that in his cross section of data, those shot with 9 and 40 often tended to be shot many more times as those that succumed to 45 hits.

[EX Carnival man 223]

I like them all. Now its good to have a few different calibers. You never know which will be available. If you can't find 9 mm maybe you can find .40 If you can't find .40 maybe 357 sig, or .45 is available.

[Johnny 0]

I remember hearing that 50 Cent was shot multiple times a while back.

 

From wikipedia:

 

On May 24, 2000, Jackson was attacked by a gunman, alleged to be Darryl "Hommo" Baum, outside his grandmother's former home in South Jamaica, Queens. He went into a friend's car, but was asked to return to the house to get jewelry.

His son was in the house, while his grandmother was in the front yard.^[12] Upon returning to the back seat of the car and already seated, another car pulled up nearby. An assailant then walked up to Jackson's left side with a 9mm handgun and fired nine shots at close range. He was shot nine times: in the hand (a round hit his right thumb, to where the bullet passed through and out his little finger), arm, hip, both legs, chest, and his face (his left cheek).^[11][16][30] The face wound resulted in a swollen tongue, the loss of a wisdom tooth, and a small slur in his voice.^[15][16][31] His friend also sustained a gunshot wound to the hand. They were driven to the hospital where Jackson spent thirteen days.

Baum, the alleged shooter, was killed three weeks later.^[32] He was also Mike Tyson's close friend and bodyguard.^[33]

Jackson recalled the incident saying, "It happens so fast that you don't even get a chance to shoot back.... I was scared the whole time.... I was looking in the rear-view mirror like, 'Oh @#!*% , somebody shot me in the face! It burns, burns, burns.'"^[16]

 

 

 

 

^{Had that been a 45 he wouldnt be around today.}

[unclenunzie 3]

http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/9mmvs45ACP.htm

 

Loads of fun.

 

As for me, I'm happy with either gold dot 9mm +p 124 grain running 1150 fps, or golden saber .45 acp 230 grain running 850 fps. Either will end felonious violent attack when applied properly. I think at some point, once you are able to make a certain size hole or larger, for sufficient depth, caliber doesn't matter any further.